The deadly consequences of denying limited atonement !

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Ronald Nolette

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I think TULIP is flawed. It is high minded, presumptuous, cold and simplistic ( as to reduce the sovereignty of God into a cute flowery acronym). Actually to be able to summarize something of this magnitude, one would have to be omniscient. God's Word is sufficient and then of course we have the Holy Spirit to teach us.
There is a tension between the spiritual and physical realms and just how things play out are mysterious to us, above our knowledge and mental capacity. So it is with this apparent paradox that we bump up against and take sides.
Forrest Gump got it right. Is our destiny fixed or do we make our own destiny? He said, "Both are going on at the same time." ( That was my all time favorite movie btw.)

"God draws all men to Himself" - but many resist! He grieved when He destroyed the world with the flood, but it had to be that way - for our sake. Prophetic scripture states that many will be lost and hence judged and destroyed. What else can we conclude other than He did not predestine those to be saved?

Totally depraved"? Well man left to himself is, but we aren't are we? GOD is the author of our faith AND He is also working in everyone's life. I think the condition of man's heart before the Flood was totally depraved. But God's principles have permeated throughout the world since then.
Jesus has changed the world. We have God, some of us do, so why imply the harsh negative, that is not the Gospel way. Sin needs to be addressed. But are we all totally depraved? That would imply totally evil all the time - as they were before Flood.

God simplified His plan for us by giving us the whole Bible. His foreknowledge is far beyond what we were given.
Calvinists are often cold and judgmental, pointing their holy fingers at everyone. I think they are like Ephesus.


"We know in part" and so why form an acronym that appears to be fully clear, yet we do not see things clearly, they are blurry and God works in mysterious ways.
There is this apparent paradox that we bump up against when examing these five points; and so we take sides. Btw, I am not an Arminian either - don't entertain that dispute.
Is life fixed, our destiny that is. In our perspective, we hope that it's fixed and live like it's not. I used to say the signifant things our part of His plan. The forks in the road, the people on your life, the life altering experiences; not the small stuff. But our view of the small stuff may amount to a big deal. You want to go for a ride with the guys to the beach, but your Dad tells you that you must do your chores and homework! Is that small stuff? Not when the boys that day happen to drink and wrapped the car around a telephone pole and all died. The following year, you became a Christian. If you are predestined to be saved, God obviously must keep you alive until then, which means everyday He and His angels are watching over you keeping you from a dealt incident. What about those boys who died? Were they Christians, did they have faith?

Unconditional Election? Maybe, but that is in the realm of God's foreknowledge, His omniscience and should be left alone.
From our perspective God says if you do this, this will happen or I will grant you that. We are supposed to believe that our cooperation is essential to how things turn out - even though we cannot mess up His plan, He still wants us to feel like we have achieved something to get the " Well done good and faithful servant"!
Isn't believing "in Christ" a condition? Jesus is the AUTHOR and FINISHER of our faith, so that should settle the matter. But still, we are participants, thinking that our choices in life matter. They do, life is filled with them. So how do we sort out God's power and ours?
"God desires that all to come to Him" --- but not all do.
Wait a minute, God desires something that can't be done ... that He is unable to accomplish??? That must be true.
He grieved when He destroyed the world with the flood, but it had to be - for our sake. Prophetic scripture states that many will be lost and hence judged and destroyed. What else can we conclude other than He did not predestine those to be saved?

Limited Atonement? Predestination is true; but why present it as though Jesus sacrificial death was limited, not powerful enough to cover all sin? It is. Limited atonement, is technically _ at the end of time _ true _ (that not all will make it so, the blood will not be applied to all); but this should not be a theme and evangelical tool to hit everyone over the head with as they spread the love of the Gospel.

Irresistible Grace? Wait a minute, for that to work, he had to divide grace into two categories: common grace and effectual grace. What? Grace is grace, it is God's unmerited favor. It is offered to all but some resist it. Romans 1 says, "man is without excuse". If some were predestined to die ( made for dishonor - which I believe), then that would be their excuse, "You made me this way, how could I do otherwise"? See the paradox, the tension.
Jesus said, “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing” Matthew 23:37-39.
They resisted His Grace over and over again.


Perseverance of the Saints? Now, here we have something positive, a real actual scripture quote. (Phil.1:6 & 2:13) It is a fact, those who are born again will do the Lord's work and persevere til the end. Opps, I guess that makes me a 1 point Calvinist?
Well it is very clear that you are opposed to a caricature of TULIP and not to the biblical teachings that from tulip.

I suspect if you took the time to read more than the simple statements that make up the very abbreviated statements of TULIP, and reasd the biblical defense of them, you would be a five pointer as well.

You are mad at simplistic statments which arew true but very abbreviated.

Do you wish me to give a deeper writing on teh five points? You seem to not understand election, atonement, depravity, and how grace works.
 

Anchorite

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Theological Errors of TULIP

By examining the concepts of this summary of Calvinistic theory, one can see why it often results in bitter, arrogant, hostile attitudes. Unmerciful, cruel behaviors began with John Calvin supporting the brutal torture and execution of his theological opponents.

T: Total Depravity - the claim that humans are completely and inescapably unable to respond to God.

This doctrine mocks the many instances of Jesus and the apostles calling people to repent. How can anyone repent if they are totally and permanently depraved? No one is 100% controlled by darkness, thus people can be convicted and turn to God.

U: Unconditional Election - the idea that personal responsibility to seek God has no relevance.

This doctrine claims that God arbitrarily selects certain individuals for salvation and condemns the rest of humanity to hell. Human choice is not involved, thus evangelical persuasion is pointless, except to identify who is and who is not elected.

L: Limited Atonement - the concept that Christ only died for those who receive Him as Savior.

This doctrine contradicts the many verses that state that Christ died for all humanity. Thus, everyone may come to Christ for eternal life and no one can say they were not able to do so.

I : Irresistible Grace - the idea that humans are robots and if Grace is imposed upon a person, they must involuntarily accept it with no resistance.

This doctrine contradicts the many verses in which God is pleading with people to repent.

P: Perseverance of the Saints - the idea that truly born again individuals will not abandon the faith and are eternally secure, because God forces them to remain in fellowship with Him.

This doctrine contradicts the many scriptures written to saved believers, warning them to examine themselves and not stray from the path of light.
 
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Ronald David Bruno

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Well it is very clear that you are opposed to a caricature of TULIP and not to the biblical teachings that from tulip.

I suspect if you took the time to read more than the simple statements that make up the very abbreviated statements of TULIP, and reasd the biblical defense of them, you would be a five pointer as well.

You are mad at simplistic statments which arew true but very abbreviated.

Do you wish me to give a deeper writing on teh five points? You seem to not understand election, atonement, depravity, and how grace works.
Oh, so Christians who don't accept TULIP just didn't dig deep enough... and therfore don't understand election or how grace works? I have studied under RC Sproul and John MacArthur, both Calvinists. Are you more educated than them? Spare me ... and no thanks. Those guys are usually my go to commentators, just not concerning certain topics. You seem high minded, pretentious, as if having access to God's foreknowledge and His detailed plan in everyone' life how it all works. Also the often Calvinesque flare has a touch of arrogance, pride and absent compassion. Be careful.
 
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Ronald David Bruno

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Oh, so Christians who don't accept TULIP just didn't dig deep enough... and therfore don't understand election or how grace works? I have studied under RC Sproul and John MacArthur, both Calvinists. Are you more educated than them? Spare me ... and no thanks. Those guys are usually my go to commentators, just not concerning certain topics. You seem high minded, pretentious, as if having access to God's foreknowledge and His detailed plan in everyone' life how it all works. Also the often Calvinesque flare has a touch of arrogance, pride and absent compassion. Be careful.
Though I respect J MacArthur and RC, I was saved and nourished in spirit filled churches. For instance, J.M. does not believe in the gifts of the Spirit, says they ceased b in the 1st Century. He's wrong. That's just one teaching. He never taught TULIP nor ever admitted fir most of his ministry that he was a Calvinist until RC asked him point blank later in life and then he admitted it. Why so late, why avoid it for all those years? Maybe he wasn't quite comfortable with it. He wrote about it but just didn't speak about it - so played it safe as to not ruffle feathers, lose or create division. It does create division and Bible theology should not.
 
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Ronald Nolette

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Oh, so Christians who don't accept TULIP just didn't dig deep enough... and therfore don't understand election or how grace works? I have studied under RC Sproul and John MacArthur, both Calvinists. Are you more educated than them? Spare me ... and no thanks. Those guys are usually my go to commentators, just not concerning certain topics. You seem high minded, pretentious, as if having access to God's foreknowledge and His detailed plan in everyone' life how it all works. Also the often Calvinesque flare has a touch of arrogance, pride and absent compassion. Be careful
Yes I would say that christians who reject Tulip have not studied Scripture well.

I have also read many works by Sproul and Macauthur. Sproul being reformed and Macauthur being dispensational have more in disagreement than agreement. reformed is covenantal while McCauthur is dispensatioanl, there is a vast difference in the two theologies.

Well as they have very divergent eschatology's, which one do you reject and which you accept?

Well if you bothered to know me better you would know I am not high minded or arrogant, proud or lack compassion. Bu8t what I believe i defend! If I am proven wrong, I recant and adopt the new position that is proven from Scripture and not opinion. You have offered opinion why TULIP is wrong, but no biblical facts.

You reject T or total depravity Which is better stated as mankind is as bad off as we can be. all are lost and in need of trusting Jesus as Saviot as John 3 clearly says.

You reject U with a flimsly argument that accepting Christ is a condition. but that is not what Calvinsim teaches nor Scripture. It merely says man does not have to change his life, start praying, reading etc.etc. befroe He can turn to Jesus. It is like the Billy Graham crusade song--"Just as I am..."

You reject L or limited atonement. that must mean that every one has had all their sins erased (for that is what atonement means in the NT) so you hold to some from of universalism. I accept the biblical definition, that jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the world- which means He is the acceptable sacrifice, thus making all men savable, but He did not savce all.

You also reject I which is irresistible grace. this one gets tricky because in SCripture there is prevenisnt grace and sovereign grace.

But I look at all the passages where people are called, elected. selected, chosen, predestined and drawn I give you 2 verses to ponder on this:

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Ephesians 1:4-6

King James Version

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

He picks us first, we don't pick HIm first.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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Yes I would say that christians who reject Tulip have not studied Scripture well.
Really? Billy Graham, Norman Geisler, John Wesley, C.S. Lewis and other
Notable PhD scholars who reject TULIP include:

• Dr. Leighton Flowers:
Director of Evangelism and Apologetics for Texas Baptists. He holds a PhD and operates Soteriology 101, a platform dedicated to refuting TULIP and defending traditional (Provisionist) models of free will.

• Dr. Jerry Walls: A scholar of philosophy and religion (PhD, University of Notre Dame), known for his philosophical deconstruction of Calvinist determinism.
• Dr. Eric Hankins: A Southern Baptist theologian (PhD, Southern Baptist Theological Seminary) who spearheaded the Traditional Statement, a widely signed document affirming God's universal love for all mankind and refuting TULIP doctrines like Limited Atonement

• Dr. Roger E. Olson: A highly respected professor of theology and author of the book Against Calvinism, which provides a thorough academic dismantling of the five points from an evangelical Arminian perspective.

• Dr. David L. Allen: A prominent New Testament scholar and Dean of the School of Preaching at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, known for his work dismantling Limited Atonement.
• Dr. Ben Witherington III: A well-known New Testament scholar and professor who has written extensively against Calvinist deterministic views, defending free-will and universal atonement.

Do you think they did 't study their Bibles. There are thousands of Christian scholars who can be added to that list.
 
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brightfame52

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Really? Billy Graham, Norman Geisler, John Wesley, C.S. Lewis and other
Notable PhD scholars who reject TULIP include:

• Dr. Leighton Flowers:
Director of Evangelism and Apologetics for Texas Baptists. He holds a PhD and operates Soteriology 101, a platform dedicated to refuting TULIP and defending traditional (Provisionist) models of free will.

• Dr. Jerry Walls: A scholar of philosophy and religion (PhD, University of Notre Dame), known for his philosophical deconstruction of Calvinist determinism.
• Dr. Eric Hankins: A Southern Baptist theologian (PhD, Southern Baptist Theological Seminary) who spearheaded the Traditional Statement, a widely signed document affirming God's universal love for all mankind and refuting TULIP doctrines like Limited Atonement

• Dr. Roger E. Olson: A highly respected professor of theology and author of the book Against Calvinism, which provides a thorough academic dismantling of the five points from an evangelical Arminian perspective.

• Dr. David L. Allen: A prominent New Testament scholar and Dean of the School of Preaching at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, known for his work dismantling Limited Atonement.
• Dr. Ben Witherington III: A well-known New Testament scholar and professor who has written extensively against Calvinist deterministic views, defending free-will and universal atonement.

Do you think they did 't study their Bibles. There are thousands of Christian scholars who can be added to that list.
They all reject the Gospel then ! All them titles dont mean nothing if you reject the truth
 

markalan

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Then they are guilty of denying that Salvation is 100 % conditioned on the Person and Work of Jesus Christ. There's no way around that fact. Either Christ's Saving death was only for some, and all of that some are saved, or it was for all without exception, and in some degree Salvation is conditioned upon man, something he must do. Once that element of what man does enters the equation to make Salvation a reality, Salvation is no more 100% conditioned on Christ alone, which Deny's the power of the Gospel !Hence the deadly consequences of denying limited atonement !
As I am a little new to this, could you post 3 Scriptures to support your comments for me to consider.
 
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brightfame52

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TBH, I am not interested in man's reasoning ... if it is so difficult to find 3 Scriptures, I can only assume there are none. Thank you for your time.
You wouldnt believe the scripture anyway. Take care
 

Anchorite

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They all reject the Gospel then ! All them titles dont mean nothing if you reject the truth
This is the danger with TULIP and other theological concepts. No theology is equal to or greater than the scriptures. One must never say any theology is the gospel. It is just one possible explanation of the gospel and nothing more.
 

brightfame52

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This is the danger with TULIP and other theological concepts. No theology is equal to or greater than the scriptures. One must never say any theology is the gospel. It is just one possible explanation of the gospel and nothing more.
For your information, Tulip Truths are founded on scripture
 

Ronald Nolette

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Really? Billy Graham, Norman Geisler, John Wesley, C.S. Lewis and other
Notable PhD scholars who reject TULIP include:

• Dr. Leighton Flowers:
Director of Evangelism and Apologetics for Texas Baptists. He holds a PhD and operates Soteriology 101, a platform dedicated to refuting TULIP and defending traditional (Provisionist) models of free will.

• Dr. Jerry Walls: A scholar of philosophy and religion (PhD, University of Notre Dame), known for his philosophical deconstruction of Calvinist determinism.
• Dr. Eric Hankins: A Southern Baptist theologian (PhD, Southern Baptist Theological Seminary) who spearheaded the Traditional Statement, a widely signed document affirming God's universal love for all mankind and refuting TULIP doctrines like Limited Atonement

• Dr. Roger E. Olson: A highly respected professor of theology and author of the book Against Calvinism, which provides a thorough academic dismantling of the five points from an evangelical Arminian perspective.

• Dr. David L. Allen: A prominent New Testament scholar and Dean of the School of Preaching at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, known for his work dismantling Limited Atonement.
• Dr. Ben Witherington III: A well-known New Testament scholar and professor who has written extensively against Calvinist deterministic views, defending free-will and universal atonement.

Do you think they did 't study their Bibles. There are thousands of Christian scholars who can be added to that list.
So would you like me to list many famous Christian authors and evangelists who accept TULIP? Are we to have dueling scholars now?

I know full well that TULIP is a minority position in teh church just as eternal security is a minority position as is a pre trib rapture and even the physical millennial kingdom on earth where Jesus reigns.. Butr majority belief doesn't make a position right, Scripture makes a position right.

I can fully defend all five points of Tulip! Can you defend your four points of Armenianism that are the only alternatives to T,U,L and I ?
 

Anchorite

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For your information, Tulip Truths are founded on scripture
Wrong.

Theological Errors of TULIP

By examining the concepts of this summary of Calvinistic theory, one can see why it often results in bitter, arrogant, hostile attitudes. Unmerciful, cruel behaviors began with John Calvin supporting the brutal torture and execution of his theological opponents.

T: Total Depravity - the claim that humans are completely and inescapably unable to respond to God.

This doctrine mocks the many instances of Jesus and the apostles calling people to repent. How can anyone repent if they are totally and permanently depraved? No one is 100% controlled by darkness, thus people can be convicted and turn to God.

U: Unconditional Election - the idea that personal responsibility to seek God has no relevance.

This doctrine claims that God arbitrarily selects certain individuals for salvation and condemns the rest of humanity to hell. Human choice is not involved, thus evangelical persuasion is pointless, except to identify who is and who is not elected.

L: Limited Atonement - the concept that Christ only died for those who receive Him as Savior.

This doctrine contradicts the many verses that state that Christ died for all humanity. Thus, everyone may come to Christ for eternal life and no one can say they were not able to do so.

I : Irresistible Grace - the idea that humans are robots and if Grace is imposed upon a person, they must involuntarily accept it with no resistance.

This doctrine contradicts the many verses in which God is pleading with people to repent.

P: Perseverance of the Saints - the idea that truly born again individuals will not abandon the faith and are eternally secure, because God forces them to remain in fellowship with Him.

This doctrine contradicts the many scriptures written to saved believers, warning them to examine themselves and not stray from the path of light.
 
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Anchorite

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No Im not. You have been deceived to think otherwise
But you couldn’t even provide 3 scriptures to support your opinion when @markalan politely asked you to.

Seeing the Bible through the lens of a theology is a dangerous practice. You exalt the theology above the Word of God.
 
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brightfame52

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But you couldn’t even provide 3 scriptures to support your opinion when @markalan politely asked you to.

Seeing the Bible through the lens of a theology is a dangerous practice. You exalt the theology above the Word of God.
I dont jump when someone say Jump, I provided plenty of scripture in my threads.