Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well it is very clear that you are opposed to a caricature of TULIP and not to the biblical teachings that from tulip.I think TULIP is flawed. It is high minded, presumptuous, cold and simplistic ( as to reduce the sovereignty of God into a cute flowery acronym). Actually to be able to summarize something of this magnitude, one would have to be omniscient. God's Word is sufficient and then of course we have the Holy Spirit to teach us.
There is a tension between the spiritual and physical realms and just how things play out are mysterious to us, above our knowledge and mental capacity. So it is with this apparent paradox that we bump up against and take sides.
Forrest Gump got it right. Is our destiny fixed or do we make our own destiny? He said, "Both are going on at the same time." ( That was my all time favorite movie btw.)
"God draws all men to Himself" - but many resist! He grieved when He destroyed the world with the flood, but it had to be that way - for our sake. Prophetic scripture states that many will be lost and hence judged and destroyed. What else can we conclude other than He did not predestine those to be saved?
Totally depraved"? Well man left to himself is, but we aren't are we? GOD is the author of our faith AND He is also working in everyone's life. I think the condition of man's heart before the Flood was totally depraved. But God's principles have permeated throughout the world since then.
Jesus has changed the world. We have God, some of us do, so why imply the harsh negative, that is not the Gospel way. Sin needs to be addressed. But are we all totally depraved? That would imply totally evil all the time - as they were before Flood.
God simplified His plan for us by giving us the whole Bible. His foreknowledge is far beyond what we were given.
Calvinists are often cold and judgmental, pointing their holy fingers at everyone. I think they are like Ephesus.
"We know in part" and so why form an acronym that appears to be fully clear, yet we do not see things clearly, they are blurry and God works in mysterious ways.
There is this apparent paradox that we bump up against when examing these five points; and so we take sides. Btw, I am not an Arminian either - don't entertain that dispute.
Is life fixed, our destiny that is. In our perspective, we hope that it's fixed and live like it's not. I used to say the signifant things our part of His plan. The forks in the road, the people on your life, the life altering experiences; not the small stuff. But our view of the small stuff may amount to a big deal. You want to go for a ride with the guys to the beach, but your Dad tells you that you must do your chores and homework! Is that small stuff? Not when the boys that day happen to drink and wrapped the car around a telephone pole and all died. The following year, you became a Christian. If you are predestined to be saved, God obviously must keep you alive until then, which means everyday He and His angels are watching over you keeping you from a dealt incident. What about those boys who died? Were they Christians, did they have faith?
Unconditional Election? Maybe, but that is in the realm of God's foreknowledge, His omniscience and should be left alone.
From our perspective God says if you do this, this will happen or I will grant you that. We are supposed to believe that our cooperation is essential to how things turn out - even though we cannot mess up His plan, He still wants us to feel like we have achieved something to get the " Well done good and faithful servant"!
Isn't believing "in Christ" a condition? Jesus is the AUTHOR and FINISHER of our faith, so that should settle the matter. But still, we are participants, thinking that our choices in life matter. They do, life is filled with them. So how do we sort out God's power and ours?
"God desires that all to come to Him" --- but not all do.
Wait a minute, God desires something that can't be done ... that He is unable to accomplish??? That must be true. He grieved when He destroyed the world with the flood, but it had to be - for our sake. Prophetic scripture states that many will be lost and hence judged and destroyed. What else can we conclude other than He did not predestine those to be saved?
Limited Atonement? Predestination is true; but why present it as though Jesus sacrificial death was limited, not powerful enough to cover all sin? It is. Limited atonement, is technically _ at the end of time _ true _ (that not all will make it so, the blood will not be applied to all); but this should not be a theme and evangelical tool to hit everyone over the head with as they spread the love of the Gospel.
Irresistible Grace? Wait a minute, for that to work, he had to divide grace into two categories: common grace and effectual grace. What? Grace is grace, it is God's unmerited favor. It is offered to all but some resist it. Romans 1 says, "man is without excuse". If some were predestined to die ( made for dishonor - which I believe), then that would be their excuse, "You made me this way, how could I do otherwise"? See the paradox, the tension.
Jesus said, “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing” Matthew 23:37-39.
They resisted His Grace over and over again.
Perseverance of the Saints? Now, here we have something positive, a real actual scripture quote. (Phil.1:6 & 2:13) It is a fact, those who are born again will do the Lord's work and persevere til the end. Opps, I guess that makes me a 1 point Calvinist?
I suspect if you took the time to read more than the simple statements that make up the very abbreviated statements of TULIP, and reasd the biblical defense of them, you would be a five pointer as well.
You are mad at simplistic statments which arew true but very abbreviated.
Do you wish me to give a deeper writing on teh five points? You seem to not understand election, atonement, depravity, and how grace works.