Judgement Seat of Christ for who ?

[PeterAndroz]

I would say all of the above. We (believers) are the Church of the Living God throughout all ages!

Great to have constructive conversation.
Yes, from Adam to Revelation, we all believe in the Living GOD
When Christ was here believers were grouped eg Gentiles, Jew
Now there are no distinctions :- Gal 3:28, Gal 6:15, 1 Cor 12:12, Col 3:11
Paul states :-
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
**
If the urge strikes, I'd like your thoughts on the following :-

Paul's "Mystery" - doctrine.org

Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the secrets of God (1 Corinthians 4.1). Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of…

doctrine.org

 

[PeterAndroz]

Paul knew about the judgment seat because Jesus taught it.
The lord said he would come with all his Angels and take his seat for eternal judgment.
He would then gather all nations and separate them into two groups, the lost and the saved and judge them.

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”


Jesus makes it very clear who is there and what happens to them when he takes his seat.

JW ( no offence :) >>>>>"""The lord said he would come with all his Angels and take his seat for eternal judgment.
That's AFTER 1 Cor 15:51-52, 1 Thess 4:14-17 so applies to a different audience

 

[PeterAndroz]

He was talking to a select audience, but that doesn't mean he was saying only they would appear before the judgment seat of Christ. When you look at what he said carefully, you should see that he was talking about literally everyone that has ever existed and I showed why in post #2. Can you address what I said in that post?

One response at a time.
Si >> ""He was talking to a select audience,
Agreed, those saved by the 1 Cor 15:1-4, Eph 1:13 Gospel that Christ Gal 1:11-12 revealed to Paul
Si >> ""but that doesn't mean he was saying only they would appear before the judgment seat of Christ
Please list the verses that supports your claim.

 

[jeffweeder]

JW ( no offence :) >>>>>"""The lord said he would come with all his Angels and take his seat for eternal judgment.
That's AFTER 1 Cor 15:51-52, 1 Thess 4:14-17 so applies to a different audience

Not true.
There is only one coming and one audience.

Paul in 1thess 4:14-17,
14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

Paul preaches according to the Lord's own word regarding his coming.
Paul teaches the Thessalonian's,

2Thess 1
5 All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

Jesus said the same thing in Matt 25 making his audience the same as Pauls audience
Jude also.
Jude
14 It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, 15 to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”

 

[jeffweeder]

Agree. Notice how my posts are being ignored in this thread. They are not even willing to consider whether or not the throne of Christ's judgment referenced in Matthew 25:31-46 is the same as His judgment seat, which it very clearly is. They are not willing to take into consideration the Old Testament passage that Paul references in Romans 14:11 to help determine the context of what he was talking about in relation to the judgment seat of Christ and who will be appearing before Him while bowing down to Him. Some people just believe what they want to believe and are not willing to put any effort or thought into discovering the truth of this matter.

I agree.
You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink.

John 4:14
but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”

 

[KUWN]

The Bible shows us when Christ came to earth, the time had come for judgment to first begin at the house of God, the church.

1 Peter 4:17-19 (KJV) For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

This is what I believe pertains to the judgment seat of Christ. The reason for the JSC is so that all who are born again Christians will not have to come into judgment at the great white throne that shall be when Christ comes again. Since we have already been judged righteous before Christ (JSC), when time for the GWTJ comes, and (as you've said) we are called to meet the Lord in the air, we shall be clothed in immortal & incorruptible body. Unlike the DEAD who must stand before the GWT in mortal/corruptible bodies of flesh raised from the grave to be judged according to what they have done while alive in the flesh. The book(s) will be opened, and the DEAD will be judged according to what is written of their lives.

John 5:28-29 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

While the judgment seat of Christ in this life is for the body of Christ (born again believers), we too shall be called before the great white throne of God. We learn this from Christ's parable written in Matthew and what is written in the Revelation 20.

Matthew 25:31-33 (KJV) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Even though we believers too shall be gathered together from all the nations of the earth at the GWT, believers, called the sheep shall be separated from unbelievers, called the goats. They on Christ's left, and we believers on His right. We, on His right hand already clothed in resurrected immortal & incorruptible body, but the DEAD on His left shall be resurrected in mortal & corruptible body of flesh because in life they were never judged righteous before the judgment seat of Christ. All the dead have done in life is written down that they will be judged according to their deeds in the flesh. The fate for the DEAD shall be the lake of fire because they died in unbelief their names never found written in the Lamb's Book of Life. While the DEAD are cast into the lake of fire that is the second death, the righteous on Christ's right shall hear Christ speak the following words to "we" who in life were judged worthy in Christ declared righteous before the judgment seat of Christ.

Matthew 25:34 (KJV) Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

You are mixing up the "caught up" with the Second Advent. Tell me if you think the "caught up" (Rapture) and the 2nd Coming are the same event: see chart below.

At the Rapture:
1. Christ comes FOR His own in the air
2. All believers are translated into new bodies
3. Christians are taken to the Father's House
4. There is no judgment on the earth
5. The Church will be in Heaven
6. It is an imminent occurrence
7. There are no signs preceding it
8. It affects believers only
9. It is a time of joy
10. it occurs before the day of Wrath
11. No mention of Satan
12. The Judgment Seat of Christ happens next
13. There is the marriage of the Lamb
14. Only Christ's own will see him
15. The Tribulation begins

At the Second Coming:
1. Christ comes WITH his own to the earth
2. No Translation of bodies
3. resurrected saints remain on earth
4. Christ judges the inhabitants of the earth
5. Christ sets up his kingdom on earth
6. It can not occur until the seven-year Trib period
7. There are numerous signs preceding it
8. It affects all humanity
9. It is a time of mourning
10. It occurs after the Tribulation
11. Satan is bound in abyss 1,000 years
12. No judgment seat of Christ
13. His bride descends with him to earth
14. Every eye will see him
15. The millennial reign of Christ begins

 

[PeterAndroz]

Not true.
There is only one coming and one audience.

Paul in 1thess 4:14-17,
14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

Paul preaches according to the Lord's own word regarding his coming.
Paul teaches the Thessalonian's,

2Thess 1
5 All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

Jesus said the same thing in Matt 25 making his audience the same as Pauls audience
Jude also.
Jude
14 It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, 15 to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”

Not true.
You fail to separate PROHECY from MYSTERY

Paul's "Mystery" - doctrine.org

Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the secrets of God (1 Corinthians 4.1). Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of…

doctrine.org

 

[KUWN]

Not true.
There is only one coming and one audience.

This is the first prophetic coming that you cite.

Paul in 1thess 4:14-17,
14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

This is the second prophetic coming that you cite.

Jude
14 It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, 15 to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”

Is this what you are citing as just one coming? Why 2 comings listed here?

 

[PeterAndroz]

This is the first prophetic coming that you cite.

Paul in 1thess 4:14-17,
14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

This is the second prophetic coming that you cite.

Jude
14 It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, 15 to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”

Is this what you are citing as just one coming? Why 2 comings listed here?

JW conveniently forgot to mention that Angels aren't involved in the next 2 verses unlike the gathering in Matt 24:31
1Thess 4:-
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[rwb]

JW ( no offence :) >>>>>"""The lord said he would come with all his Angels and take his seat for eternal judgment.
That's AFTER 1 Cor 15:51-52, 1 Thess 4:14-17 so applies to a different audience

The judgment seat of Christ unlike the GWTJ is not eternal judgment. The JSC is for the righteous not for the wicked. When believers stand, which is to bow our knees before Christ, giving ourselves up to Him, allowing Christ, through His Spirit in us to build up His body; the Church, that she might become the spotless bride of Christ, holy and without offense before Him in love. When we stand before the JSC it is to keep us from danger of the judgment that shall be (GWTJ) when Christ comes again with eternal judgment that will determine the eternal fate once and forever for all mankind.

The GWTJ will be only once and that shall be after Christ comes the second time. But in this life, we are called again and again to repentance. We repent when we examine our hearts according to what written in the Word of God upon hearing the gospel of the Kingdom of God through Jesus Christ our Lord. At the JSC all mankind are called to repentance, that is turning away from the old natural man of sin, by turning to Christ in repentance for life everlasting.

All mankind has knowledge of God. But knowing that God exists does not give us power to know our need of Christ as our Saviour. The Apostle Paul show us an example of a man who was called to stand before the judgment seat of Christ, and went from believing only in God to believing in the Son of God who came to save him and all who repent, and believe on Him turning away from the old nature of fallen man, to being a new man in Christ.

Paul believed in God, but he rejected Christ until one day when he was called before the JSC. Paul being struck blind with a light from heaven, heard the voice of Christ speaking. Upon hearing, Paul, believing it was the Lord repented and was obedient to do all that he had heard. From that moment Paul became an Apostle to not only Jews but also to Gentiles who had never learned of a Saviour. Being obedient unto the heavenly vision Paul went first to Judaea, and to the Gentiles preaching the gospel of the Kingdom of God through Jesus Christ, telling them to repent and turn to Jesus doing works that are worthy for repentance.

Acts 26:13-20 (KJV) At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me. And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Every man/woman who hears the gospel of the Kingdom of God through Christ Jesus our Lord has been called before the JSC. Like the Apostle Paul whoever hears and believes turns away (repents) from unbelief to believing on Christ for life everlasting. Once man has been born again, we are always standing before the judgment seat of Christ in this life, as a reminder to examine ourselves and to repent when we are not doing deeds worthy of repentance.

If we are examining ourselves through the Word of God, as believers are told we should, then we are living this life staying or bowing before the JSC, that his deeds may be made known, that they are done in love through the power of God working through and in us.

 

[rwb]

Not true.
There is only one coming and one audience.

Paul in 1thess 4:14-17,
14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

Paul preaches according to the Lord's own word regarding his coming.
Paul teaches the Thessalonian's,

2Thess 1
5 All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

Jesus said the same thing in Matt 25 making his audience the same as Pauls audience
Jude also.
Jude
14 It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, 15 to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”

Aren't men being judged righteous in this life that at the end of this age we are not judged with the unrighteous? If Christ is not judging man in this life according to His righteousness, why is man chastened in this life? Isn't being chastened by God being judged by Him? If we are being judged in this life, and we are, aren't we being judged according to the righteousness of Christ? IOW we are in this age before the judgment seat of Christ?

 

[rwb]

You are mixing up the "caught up" with the Second Advent. Tell me if you think the "caught up" (Rapture) and the 2nd Coming are the same event: see chart below.

At the Rapture:
1. Christ comes FOR His own in the air
2. All believers are translated into new bodies
3. Christians are taken to the Father's House
4. There is no judgment on the earth
5. The Church will be in Heaven
6. It is an imminent occurrence
7. There are no signs preceding it
8. It affects believers only
9. It is a time of joy
10. it occurs before the day of Wrath
11. No mention of Satan
12. The Judgment Seat of Christ happens next
13. There is the marriage of the Lamb
14. Only Christ's own will see him
15. The Tribulation begins

At the Second Coming:
1. Christ comes WITH his own to the earth
2. No Translation of bodies
3. resurrected saints remain on earth
4. Christ judges the inhabitants of the earth
5. Christ sets up his kingdom on earth
6. It can not occur until the seven-year Trib period
7. There are numerous signs preceding it
8. It affects all humanity
9. It is a time of mourning
10. It occurs after the Tribulation
11. Satan is bound in abyss 1,000 years
12. No judgment seat of Christ
13. His bride descends with him to earth
14. Every eye will see him
15. The millennial reign of Christ begins

Believers are caught up to meet the Lord in the air when the Lord returns the second time at the sign of His coming when He shall send His angels to gather together His elect.

Hebrews 9:27-28 (KJV) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Matthew 24:30-31 (KJV) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 (KJV) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him.

Revelation 11:12 (KJV) And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

2 Thessalonians 2:8-9 (KJV) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

2 Peter 3:4 (KJV) And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

2 Peter 3:7 (KJV) But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

2 Peter 3:10-12 (KJV) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Nothing of or upon this earth will survive the fire that shall come down from heaven upon this earth when Christ comes again. On that day all of mankind will either be caught up to meet the Lord in the air until the wrath of God is finished or they will suffer the fire that shall come down from God out of heaven to devour them all (Rev 20:9).

 

[rwb]

This is the first prophetic coming that you cite.

Paul in 1thess 4:14-17,
14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

This is the second prophetic coming that you cite.

Jude
14 It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, 15 to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”

Is this what you are citing as just one coming? Why 2 comings listed here?

Why would Paul write of the first coming of the Lord say, "until/unto the coming of the Lord"? Christ's first coming was in the flesh, when He came to make atonement for sin, and defeat death and Satan. Since the first coming of the Lord is past, now we are waiting for Christ to come the second time to usher in a new heaven and earth and immortality with no more sin or death.

Paul writes to encourage faithful saints that we might believe all who have died in Christ are not lost. They are the spiritual body that will return with Christ when He returns the second time.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (KJV) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:20 (KJV) But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1 Corinthians 15:22 (KJV) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

1 Corinthians 15:35 (KJV) But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

1 Corinthians 15:38 (KJV) But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

1 Corinthians 15:44 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

2 Corinthians 5:8 (KJV) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Philippians 1:21-23 (KJV) For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

Jude is reminding us that just as in the days of Old unfaithful men called sons of God, called to be His messengers (angels) turned away from God, giving themselves over to fornication through certain unfaithful who crept in among them, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, they became the ungodly who turned the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. Just as evil man existed from Old, so too they shall always be among the body of Christ, called church. They are wolves in sheep's clothing, against Christ and Christians. Seeking to tear the body apart. Just as they will not be spared when Christ comes again with His angels, neither shall any man/woman who follows in their ungodliness. Being forewarned is to be forearmed!

Jude 5 (KJV) I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

Jude 14-15 (KJV) And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

 

[KUWN]

The judgment seat of Christ unlike the GWTJ is not eternal judgment.

Are our rewards given to us at the JSC eternal, or do we give them back?

When we stand before the JSC it is to keep us from danger of the judgment that shall be (GWTJ) when Christ comes again with eternal judgment that will determine the eternal fate once and forever for all mankind.

The JSC does not keep us from danger at the GWTJ. If we appear before Christ at the JSC, our eternal destiny has already been settled.

A person's eternal destiny is determined by his response in this life to God's offer of salvation. OT saints are judged at the Second Coming of Christ. All unbelievers will also be judged at the GWTJ. No believer will appear at the GWTJ.

See Heb 9.27
Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment...

Here we see that judgment is coming on all people, but their judgment has already been settled. Nobody stands before the JSC or the GWTJ to determine their eternal destiny.

All mankind has knowledge of God. But knowing that God exists does not give us power to know our need of Christ as our Saviour. The Apostle Paul show us an example of a man who was called to stand before the judgment seat of Christ, and went from believing only in God to believing in the Son of God who came to save him and all who repent, and believe on Him turning away from the old nature of fallen man, to being a new man in Christ.

Turning away from the old nature for a babe in Christ takes years to develop.

Paul believed in God, but he rejected Christ until one day when he was called before the JSC

Paul was not brought to the JSC. The JSC is after the Rapture.

From that moment Paul became an Apostle to not only Jews but also to Gentiles...
The Apostle to the Jews was Peter. Paul did bring the salvation message to many Jews, but he was not the God-appointed Apostle to them.

Acts 26:13-20 (KJV) To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

All people that have ever existed in the world, believers and unbelievers, have had their sins forgiven by Christ on the Cross. (1 John 2.2)
There is no judgment for sins at the JSC and GWTJ.

Every man/woman who hears the gospel of the Kingdom of God through Christ Jesus our Lord has been called before the JSC. Like the Apostle Paul whoever hears and believes turns away (repents) from unbelief to believing on Christ for life everlasting. Once man has been born again, we are always standing before the judgment seat of Christ in this life, as a reminder to examine ourselves and to repent when we are not doing deeds worthy of repentance.

This is a farfetched teaching. Nobody stands before Jesus at the JSC in this life. JSC comes only after death or the Rapture.

If we are examining ourselves through the Word of God, as believers are told we should, then we are living this life staying or bowing before the JSC, that his deeds may be made known, that they are done in love through the power of God working through and in us.

Not sure what you are saying here.

 

[rwb]

JW conveniently forgot to mention that Angels aren't involved in the next 2 verses unlike the gathering in Matt 24:31
1Thess 4:-
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

What differentiates the JSC from the GWTJ is the JSC is judgment to repentance, but with the GWTJ there will be no call to repent, it shall be eternal judgment of the DEAD, who in life never repented, turning to Christ that they would not come into condemnation at the GWTJ.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

One response at a time.
Si >> ""He was talking to a select audience,
Agreed, those saved by the 1 Cor 15:1-4, Eph 1:13 Gospel that Christ Gal 1:11-12 revealed to Paul
Si >> ""but that doesn't mean he was saying only they would appear before the judgment seat of Christ
Please list the verses that supports your claim.

Read my post #2 in this thread.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This is the first prophetic coming that you cite.

Paul in 1thess 4:14-17,
14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

This is the second prophetic coming that you cite.

Jude
14 It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, 15 to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”

Is this what you are citing as just one coming? Why 2 comings listed here?

Those verses are not referring to two separate comings of Christ. Read 1 Thessalonians 4:14. That describes who will be with Jesus when He comes. It will be "those who have fallen asleep in him". It will be the souls of the dead in Christ. So, the holy ones referenced in Jude 14 refer to the souls of the dead in Christ and the angels. Also, if two passages don't contain all of the same details, it doesn't mean they can't be about the same event. Scripture teaches that Jesus will come from heaven once in the future and He will come in like manner as He ascended there (Acts 1:9-11).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You are mixing up the "caught up" with the Second Advent. Tell me if you think the "caught up" (Rapture) and the 2nd Coming are the same event: see chart below.

At the Rapture:
1. Christ comes FOR His own in the air
2. All believers are translated into new bodies
3. Christians are taken to the Father's House
4. There is no judgment on the earth
5. The Church will be in Heaven
6. It is an imminent occurrence
7. There are no signs preceding it
8. It affects believers only
9. It is a time of joy
10. it occurs before the day of Wrath
11. No mention of Satan
12. The Judgment Seat of Christ happens next
13. There is the marriage of the Lamb
14. Only Christ's own will see him
15. The Tribulation begins

At the Second Coming:
1. Christ comes WITH his own to the earth
2. No Translation of bodies
3. resurrected saints remain on earth
4. Christ judges the inhabitants of the earth
5. Christ sets up his kingdom on earth
6. It can not occur until the seven-year Trib period
7. There are numerous signs preceding it
8. It affects all humanity
9. It is a time of mourning
10. It occurs after the Tribulation
11. Satan is bound in abyss 1,000 years
12. No judgment seat of Christ
13. His bride descends with him to earth
14. Every eye will see him
15. The millennial reign of Christ begins

Where does scripture teach any of this? This is all based on speculation and assumptions and not on sound exegesis of scripture.

Take the first item on your second coming list, for example. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 refers to Christ coming with His own (the souls of the dead in Christ) from heaven, so there is no reason to think that is referring to a separate event from the second coming.

In #12 on the second coming list, you say "no judgment seat of Christ". What do you call His judgment throne in Matthew 25:31-46? How can that not be His judgment seat?

In #10 in the second coming list, it says it occurs after the tribulation. That's what Jesus indicated about the rapture in Matthew 24:29-31 (Mark 13:24-27). He clearly indicated that the gathering of the elect (the elect = the church) will occur after the tribulation. You have no scripture to back up your claim that the rapture is a separate event from the second coming. The rapture will occur at the second coming of Christ.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

 

[rwb]

Where does scripture teach any of this? This is all based on speculation and assumptions and not on sound exegesis of scripture.

Take the first item on your second coming list, for example. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 refers to Christ coming with His own (the souls of the dead in Christ) from heaven, so there is no reason to think that is referring to a separate event from the second coming.

In #12 on the second coming list, you say "no judgment seat of Christ". What do you call His judgment throne in Matthew 25:31-46? How can that not be His judgment seat?

In #10 in the second coming list, it says it occurs after the tribulation. That's what Jesus indicated about the rapture in Matthew 24:29-31 (Mark 13:24-27). He clearly indicated that the gathering of the elect (the elect = the church) will occur after the tribulation. You have no scripture to back up your claim that the rapture is a separate event from the second coming. The rapture will occur at the second coming of Christ.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Doesn't Scripture indicate the sheep were already the sheep before the coming of the Lord? They aren't called to the GWTJ to be judged, as the goats are. No, the sheep are gathered before His throne of glory to hear the King say "Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:" This is fulfillment of the promise to whosoever hears the gospel of the Kingdom of God and believes on Christ for eternal life. We became Christ's sheep when we gave account before the judgment seat of Christ when we confessed Jesus is the Lord God and believed in our heart, He was risen from the dead, we shall be saved and have no fear of the second death. Every one of us who believe have already given account of himself to God, when in life we stand before the judgment seat of Christ. So there will be no shame nor condemnation for believers as there will be for unbelievers called to stand before the GWT!

Romans 14:7-12 (KJV) For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Romans 10:8-11 (KJV) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Doesn't Scripture indicate the sheep were already the sheep before the coming of the Lord?

Of course. The judgment of all people that will occur when Jesus returns is not for the purpose of Jesus deliberating and determining who are the sheep and who are the goats. That will already have been determined. That's why the sheep are all placed on His right and the goats are all placed on His left before the judgment even begins.

They aren't called to the GWTJ to be judged, as the goats are.

No, they will be rewarded with eternal life at that time in the new heavens and new earth in the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world while the goats are cast into "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels".

No, the sheep are gathered before His throne of glory to hear the King say "Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:"

Of course. That is explicitly stated in the text. This isn't even something that has to be questioned or debated.

This is fulfillment of the promise to whosoever hears the gospel of the Kingdom of God and believes on Christ for eternal life. We became Christ's sheep when we gave account before the judgment seat of Christ when we confessed Jesus is the Lord God and believed in our heart, He was risen from the dead, we shall be saved and have no fear of the second death.

Where does scripture teach this? Do you not believe that the judgment throne described in Matthew 25:31-46 that Jesus sits on to judge all people when He comes again with His angels is the judgment seat of Christ?

Every one of us who believe have already given account of himself to God, when in life we stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

No, we have not. It's talking about literally appearing before Jesus and giving an account of the things we have done in this lifetime.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Believers will inherit eternal life in the kingdom of God in the new heavens and new earth at that time, but scripture does talk about rewards for believers beyond that and also talks about believers losing rewards that they could have had. Please read the following passage...

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Paul very clearly said that "every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad". While scripture is clear that all people will either inherit eternal life or be sentenced to the second death, it also is clear that there will be differing levels of rewards and punishments given out on the day of judgment.

So there will be no shame nor condemnation for believers as there will be for unbelievers called to stand before the GWT!

Of course. Who said otherwise? No one. There will be loss of reward for believers, as Paul explicitly said, but that doesn't affect the fact that they will inherit eternal life in the kingdom of God.

Jesus taught that there will be differing levels of rewards for believers and punishment for unbelievers on the day of judgment as well, and I will show you that if you want.