Who is Paul discussing in 2 Thessalonians 2?

[Spiritual Israelite]

And you are not understanding me - Hebrews’ doesn’t claim to be written by an apostle

So?

, it’s eschatology doesn’t go contradict Matthew 24,

Neither does 2 Peter.

Compare these passages...

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away. 36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

2 Peter 3:6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?

Both passages compare the destruction that will occur on the day of Christ's second coming to the destruction that occurred with the flood in Noah's day. Both passages associate the passing away of the heavens and the earth with the day of Christ's second coming. Both passages indicate that Christ's second coming will come unexpectedly. There is nothing in 2 Peter that contradicts the OD.

and scholarly consensus does not place its date beyond Jesus generation.

So?

That’s why I have no issue with the eschatology of Hebrews.

You have no reason to have any issue with the eschatology of 2 Peter 3, either. A vast majority of Christians don't.

Regardless of its disputed status in early church, it doesn’t contradict the OD.

Neither does 2 Peter.

 

[Marilyn C]

In 2 Thessalonians 2 Paul gives us enough markers for identifying the term, "lawlessness," the "timing"of when this "lawlessness begins and ends," and the ability to identify the man of lawlessness. If one can identify each of his marker's in Scripture and history, then the field of possible candidates becomes very narrow. Further, if one were to bring in the Book of Daniel, we will find we will find Daniel and Paul are identifying the same indiividual and time in history.

A. The chronological sequence Paul gives - (These are the time-order elements):​

1. The Thessalonians are being deceived about the day of the Lord
   Paul begins with: “Let no one deceive you.” The whole issue is whether Christ’s return had already come or was immediately present.
2. The falling away must come first
   Before the day of the Lord, there must be an apostasy — a departure from truth within the professed people of God.
3. The mystery of lawlessness is already at work
   The principle is already operating in Paul’s day, but not yet fully visible.
4. Something is restraining it
   The lawlessness is active, but prevented from reaching its full revealed form.
5. The restraint must be removed
   Paul says the restrainer continues “until he is taken out of the way.”
6. Then the lawless one is revealed
   The hidden principle becomes an identifiable power.
7. This power continues until Christ destroys it at His coming
   That means it cannot be merely a first-century figure who came and went. It continues until the final return of Christ.

So, before we go on to discuss the characteristics of the "man of lawlessness," can we use the above 7 markers to begin to discover this fellow?

B. The identifying characteristics of the power - (These describe what this lawless power is like):​

1. Self-exaltation
   He “exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped.”
2. Religious usurpation
   He “sits in the temple of God,” meaning he takes a position inside the sphere of God’s worship and people.
3. Claim of divine authority
   He “shows himself that he is God,” meaning he claims authority that belongs only to God.
4. Counterfeit spiritual power
   His coming is “according to the working of Satan,” with signs, lying wonders, and deception.
5. Opposition to truth
   People are deceived because they do not receive the love of the truth.

THE PEACE NEGOTIATOR

The Middle East has again come into focus on the world stage. There seems no solution to the violent fightings and clashes of many groups. However the reality is that this kingdom is divided, and the Sunni and Shi-ites will not have peace until their long awaited `Messiah` figure comes and joins them together.

God`s word says that it would be a `divided kingdom` partly strong, and partly weak.

` Whereas you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter`s clay and partly of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; ........the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly fragile.` (Dan. 2: 41 & 42)

The leader of this Federation is described in great detail in God`s word. He is a royal person, with strong features; he is quite deceitful with cunning; he comes in peaceably and seizes power by intrigue.

`...a king (royal person) shall arise, having fierce features, who understands sinister schemes.....Through his cunning he shall cause deceit to prosper under his hand...`(Dan. 8: 23 - 25)

` ...he shall come in peaceably, and seize the kingdom by intrigue.` (11: 21)

There is a person of that description who is even now seeking to negotiate peace with the different groups. His name is Ali Hatem Al-Suleiman. He is one of the most prominent leaders of the Sunni Awakening.

In 2006 Ali Hatem entered a strategic alliance with US forces, (against ISIS) which, in combination with the surge in US troops that began in 2007, succeeded in re-establishing a modicum of security in Iraq.

Since then though, the Shi-ite Iraq Government have excluded the Sunni from the police, army and jobs. Thus there is still unrest in Iraq. Ali Hatem desires stability for Iraq through Political means and not through fighting.

He was brought up in cosmopolitan Bagdad and has often spoken publicly of the need for tolerance. He is a crown Prince with ties to royal families across the Arab Gulf and the elite of neighbouring Jordan. His tribe, the Dulaim, is one of the largest tribes in Iraq and is a powerful social, political and economic force. Note Babylon is in its region.

He has a talent for speeches and his title of crown Prince inspire respect and loyalty. He travels to Qatar and the United Arab Emirates to rally Gulf Arabs to his cause.

Someone to watch!

 

[Marilyn C]

 

[CTK]

THE PEACE NEGOTIATOR

The Middle East has again come into focus on the world stage. There seems no solution to the violent fightings and clashes of many groups. However the reality is that this kingdom is divided, and the Sunni and Shi-ites will not have peace until their long awaited `Messiah` figure comes and joins them together.

God`s word says that it would be a `divided kingdom` partly strong, and partly weak.

` Whereas you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter`s clay and partly of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; ........the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly fragile.` (Dan. 2: 41 & 42)

The leader of this Federation is described in great detail in God`s word. He is a royal person, with strong features; he is quite deceitful with cunning; he comes in peaceably and seizes power by intrigue.

`...a king (royal person) shall arise, having fierce features, who understands sinister schemes.....Through his cunning he shall cause deceit to prosper under his hand...`(Dan. 8: 23 - 25)

` ...he shall come in peaceably, and seize the kingdom by intrigue.` (11: 21)

There is a person of that description who is even now seeking to negotiate peace with the different groups. His name is Ali Hatem Al-Suleiman. He is one of the most prominent leaders of the Sunni Awakening.

In 2006 Ali Hatem entered a strategic alliance with US forces, (against ISIS) which, in combination with the surge in US troops that began in 2007, succeeded in re-establishing a modicum of security in Iraq.

Since then though, the Shi-ite Iraq Government have excluded the Sunni from the police, army and jobs. Thus there is still unrest in Iraq. Ali Hatem desires stability for Iraq through Political means and not through fighting.

He was brought up in cosmopolitan Bagdad and has often spoken publicly of the need for tolerance. He is a crown Prince with ties to royal families across the Arab Gulf and the elite of neighbouring Jordan. His tribe, the Dulaim, is one of the largest tribes in Iraq and is a powerful social, political and economic force. Note Babylon is in its region.

He has a talent for speeches and his title of crown Prince inspire respect and loyalty. He travels to Qatar and the United Arab Emirates to rally Gulf Arabs to his cause.

Someone to watch!

Thank you but the prophecies in Daniel are written to His people and His city- those that would see the coming of the Messiah and the restoration after their exile.

Daniel is about His first coming and the “little horn “ who would come out of the 4th kingdom of Rome (pagan Rome). And since both the little horn and the 10 horns come out of the 4th kingdom BEFORE ITS DESTRUCTION in 7:11 (476 AD), it limits their identity to just one power - one who will CONTINUE UNTIL THE END not come at the end times.

 

[ewq1938]

Thank you but the prophecies in Daniel are written to His people and His city- those that would see the coming of the Messiah and the restoration after their exile.

Daniel is about His first coming and the “little horn “ who would come out of the 4th kingdom of Rome (pagan Rome). And since both the little horn and the 10 horns come out of the 4th kingdom BEFORE ITS DESTRUCTION in 7:11 (476 AD), it limits their identity to just one power - one who will CONTINUE UNTIL THE END not come at the end times.

Neither the ten horns nor the little horn continue on after the 4th beasts destruction. The first 3 beasts will continue on but not any aspect of the 4th beast. This proves the text is not describing the RCC plus the 4th beast is destroyed at a coming of God, throne judgment and the setting up of an eternal kingdom for God's people. None of that happened in the past.

 

[CTK]

Neither the ten horns nor the little horn continue on after the 4th beasts destruction. The first 3 beasts will continue on but not any aspect of the 4th beast. This proves the text is not describing the RCC plus the 4th beast is destroyed at a coming of God, throne judgment and the setting up of an eternal kingdom for God's people. None of that happened in the past.

But please address the comments found in Daniel 7 - that both the 10 horns, then the little horn COME OUT of the 4th beast kingdom of Rome. These verses in Daniel 7 are there so we can identify the timing these powers will first be seen.

The first 3 beasts will indeed continue but not in any further position of dominance or rule. They all became subservient to Rome not completely eliminated from the earth. Their culture, beliefs, etc., were folded in when Rome conquered the world.

So, what power succeeded pagan Rome? You can’t jump to the time of the end after their exile kingdom of Greece. The 4th kingdom was Rome and the most significant events in the history of mankind took place within the early part of their reign- when the Messiah came. This is when He established His earthly church.

So what happened to His church that was set up after the Cross?

1) did it see tremendous growth in all parts the Roman Empire?

2) did it grow despite severe persecution and murder during the first 2 full centuries?

3) did Constantine put an end to the murder and persecution in the east ly 300’s and declare Christianity an allowable religion in the Empire?

4) did the church then see even a greater number of Gentiles come into the church, almost overnight by the decree of the Emperor? (Although these would be in name only).

5) did the Christian church take in many pagan practices during these times AND establish a hierarchy of priests, bishops, etc., that would mirror the structure of rule found in the Roman Empire?

6) did the successor of Constantine declare Christianity the official religion of the Empire about 50 years later?

7) was this growing and very powerful Christian church still find it subservient to pagan Rome?

8) did pagan Rome see its dominance end in 476 AD?

9) when pagan Rome fell what power filled the vacuum? What significant power was already in Rome place at the time of their demise?

10) in 538 did Justinian decree that the Christian church headed by the most powerful bishop of Rome would be given authority over all religious matters as well as civil authority?

These are the events and actors being described in Daniel 7 and 8. So tell me please, what “proof” are you referring to in your response? Did not these things literally take place in history? Does the “timing” of these events and actors line up with Daniel 7 and 8?

These powers - 10 horns and the little horn came out of pagan Rome BEFORE its demise in 476 AD. The Book of Daniel is NOT and end time prophecy but a set of prophecies centered around the first coming of the Messiah, His rejection, the establishment of His church, the growth of His church, the appropriation of His church by this little horn actor who would come out of His church as this church grew in power (still under pagan Rome’s rule), and would become the most powerful bishop within His church grew… and the rest is history. He would become “exceedingly great.”

 

[ewq1938]

But please address the comments found in Daniel 7 - that both the 10 horns, then the little horn COME OUT of the 4th beast kingdom of Rome. T

It's not Rome. Rome does not and can not match the kingdom described especially how it ends. You didn't address those details which makes Rome ineligible.

 

[CTK]

It's not Rome. Rome does not and can not match the kingdom described especially how it ends. You didn't address those details which makes Rome ineligible.

You offered absolutely nothing but a comment telling me it is not Rome. You have not addressed any of the comments I laid out because you have not studied Daniel. Please tell me how you interpret the verses in Daniel that tell us when and who comes out of pagan Rome.... and how that is relevant to the demise of pagan Rome in 476 AD? Look forward to your response.

 

[ewq1938]

You offered absolutely nothing but a comment telling me it is not Rome.

I explained why it cannot be Rome in a previous post but you did not address those things.

 

[William Barton]

IMO Antichrist will:

(1) Undertake restoration of the Jewish temple
(2) Then sit in the temple as though he were God

It will not be difficult to identify him by these two signs.

The Restrainer (2Thessalonians 2:6-7), is God, who ordains everything that ever happens.

 

[TribulationSigns]

(1) Undertake restoration of the Jewish temple
(2) Then sit in the temple as though he were God

It will not be difficult to identify him by these two signs.

The Restrainer (2Thessalonians 2:6-7), is God, who ordains everything that ever happens.

Wrong temple.
Wrong "man of sin".

God did NOT talk about Jewish temple or nation Israel here at all! He was talking about His New Testament Congregation which is the Holy Temple on this side of the Cross. It is not in physical city, Jersualem. The church is spiritually Jersualem, the great city of God - the camps of the Saints.

 

[covenantee]

It's not Rome. Rome does not and can not match the kingdom described especially how it ends. You didn't address those details which makes Rome ineligible.

God raised up the Reformers to wage spiritual battle against the prevailing antichrist of their time.

Through God's Divine prophetic enlightenment of His Word, they recognized that Rome was that antichrist.

By God's grace and mercy, and the Reformers' faith, vision, and sacrifice, often to the death; the battle was won.

God was right.

The Reformers were right.

Thank God for the Reformation.

 

[CTK]

(1) Undertake restoration of the Jewish temple
(2) Then sit in the temple as though he were God

It will not be difficult to identify him by these two signs.

The Restrainer (2Thessalonians 2:6-7), is God, who ordains everything that ever happens.

Thanks William but I would respectfully ask that you might be willing to address the ten statement in post #346 above. Daniel provides so much information on the little horn, when he will come, what blasphemous things he will do and say. God has indeed given much of His prophetic ink to the one who will appropriate HIS church, claim divinity, claim to forgive sin, preach a very different gospel, change His laws and commands - this is the one who has "set himself up in the Temple of God." It is not a literal temple but spiritually. What more does it take than to "claim equality with God Himself?" An ordinary man rising through the ranks is now declared to have divinity, infallibility, forgive sin, etc.

 

[CTK]

God raised up the Reformers to wage spiritual battle against the prevailing antichrist of their time.

Through God's Divine prophetic enlightenment of His Word, they recognized that Rome was that antichrist.

By God's grace and mercy, and the Reformers' faith, vision, and sacrifice, often to the death; the battle was won.

God was right.

The Reformers were right.

Thank God for the Reformation.

The only comment I would like to make and this is NOT to take away anything Covenantee made, it is that I firmly believe God has identified the PERSON who goes against Him in Daniel as the little horn. And the term "antiChrist" which is found in only 4 verses in the NT speaks of the "spirit of the anti-christ," which anyone can have... there is only one little horn who is a literal individual.

 

[ewq1938]

The only comment I would like to make and this is NOT to take away anything Covenantee made, it is that I firmly believe God has identified the PERSON who goes against Him in Daniel as the little horn. And the term "antiChrist" which is found in only 4 verses in the NT speaks of the "spirit of the anti-christ," which anyone can have... there is only one little horn who is a literal individual.

John wrote of a singular individual he called antichrist, so did Paul (man of sin) etc. Most ppl speak of this person as the AC but there are many names.

 

[CTK]

I explained why it cannot be Rome in a previous post but you did not address those things.

Once again, please address the 10 statements in post #346 above. Or if you would like, please provide your interpretations for the verses in Daniel 7.


7“After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces, and trampling the residue with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. 8I was considering the horns, and there was another horn, a little one, coming up among them, before whom three of the first horns were plucked out by the roots. And there, in this horn, were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking [c]pompous words.

Okay, above we have verses 7-8. They mention the following:

1) fourth beast,
2) ten horns,
3) another... little horn,
4) little horn had eyes of a man / mouth speaking pompous words


Now, also notice these verses describe a fourth beast / kingdom that comes right after Greece. So that shoud give us a very good understanding of this kingdom.

Now, we are going to skip verses 9-10 because God is revealing a "heavenly scene." He wants us to see what is taking place in heaven around this same time fram - although we know there is not time in heaven, but He is revealing what will soon take place while the earth is at this particular time in the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome.

11“I watched then because of the sound of the [f]pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. 12As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

So, how are we doing so far? God has told us in verses 7-8 exactly where we are in His 4 kingdom prophecy. He has identified the actors that are present at this time in history WITHIN this kingdom. And in verses 9-10 He is kind enough to show us exactly what is taken place in heaven at this same time. God is setting up His courtroom in heaven. Everyone is present EXCEPT FOR ONE PERSON - who do you think that might be?

Then, God's revelation turns once again back to the earthly scene. Why? Because something is going to take place ON EARTH that is important. He reveals in 11-12 the little horn speaking pompous things but notice this was going on UNTIL the 4th beast was slain. What does that mean? It means that something must have taken place ON EARTH between verses 8 and 11. That of course would be the cross. Jesus was crucified in the early part of the reign of pagan Rome - the 4th beast. And after the cross, His followers would preach the Good News throughout the pagan Roman Empire. And also notice the little horn was already speaking pompous words (against God). This was taking place BEFORE THE BEAST OF PAGAN ROME WAS SLAIN. Why? Because the Gentile Christian church, which by then became quite powerful and had as its head the bishop of Rome - the most powerful bishops within the church.

So, where are we? Oh, the Gentile Christian church is now a substantial powerhouse and pagan Rome is slain -verse 11. The cross is behind us and look what God has Daniel record in verses 11-12... Now, Jesus has gone to the cross and God is revealing to us that Jesus was returning to His Father in heaven. He is now present in the heavenly courtroom - He is the ONE everyone was waiting for in the courtroom in verses 9-10.

Soon after the demise of pagan Rome in 476 AD, there is no other power that will take over the empire except the powerful Gentile Christian church headed by the powerful bishop of Rome (the little horn), who would continue seeking power, even worship and within 50 years, Justinian would make the Church the most powerful institution on the planet - in both religious and secular matters. And notice when this little horn CAME ONTO THE SCENE - after the cross because there was no church until Jesus was crucified, well after the Apostolic era because they were still preaching the true gospel. And of course, he was already growing in power BEFORE 476 AD when pagan Rome was slain.

So God gives us two sets of important verses: a set of eartly scenes BEFORE AND AFTER THE CROSS, and two heavenly scenes BEFORE AND AFTER THE CROSS. And this is all found within our history books. If you want to learn even more that supports this please study verses 19-28. There God provides more "details" of those same two events - the earthly scene and also the heavenly scene.

Only God could make this up! Please let me know your thoughts on this... I really do not believe you will not be able to see these verses in any other way.... but if so, please give me your interpretations of these "timed" earthly and heavenly scenes.

 

[CTK]

John wrote of a singular individual he called antichrist, so did Paul (man of sin) etc. Most ppl speak of this person as the AC but there are many names.

no.

 

[ewq1938]

no.

Yes, he did.

 

[CTK]

Yes, he did.

Are you going to respond to post #’s 346 or 356?

 

[ewq1938]

Are you going to respond to post #’s 346 or 356?

Not when most of the content of post 345 is being ignored.