Oh.
You've invented your own definition of BELIEVER.
This is good.
You are hereby authorized by God to go right ahead and change the meaning of biblical words.
If sealed with the HS, how does one become UNsealed ?
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You've invented your own definition of BELIEVER.
This is good.
You are hereby authorized by God to go right ahead and change the meaning of biblical words.
Actually, mailmandan....
Jesus taught that it IS faith and works.
Paul also taught this
and so did James.
You see
Faith without works is dead.
It's what the NT teaches.
A faith without works is useless. James 2:21
A tree that does not produce figs is just using up soil. Luke 13:6-9
A branch IN JESUS that does not produce fruit will but cut off. John 15:2
No works ----- > No salvation.
Because YOU said so?
Please show HOW they were never sealed.
Perhaps this is the problem.
You don't seem to understand scripture.
Let's take a look:
2 Peter 2:20-22
. 20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
22It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”
Were they saved?
1. THEY HAVE ESCAPED THE DEFILEMENTS OF THE WORLD.
2. BY THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST.
LORD AND SAVIOR
LORD
3. THEY ARE AGAIN ENTANGLED IN THEM.
AGAIN ENTANGLED.
AGAIN.
THEY RETURNED TO A PREVIOUS STATE.
4. THE LAST STATE IS WORSE THAN THE FIRST.
THERE WERE 3 STATES.
LOST
SAVED
WORSE THAN THE FIRST
5. IT WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER FOR THEM NOT TO HAVE KNOWN THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS.
HAVE KNOWN THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS.
THEY KNEW THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS.
6. THEY TURNED FROM THE HOLY COMMANDMENT.
TO TURN AWAY...
TO ABANDON.
7. THEY RETURNED TO VOMIT AND MUD.
RETURNED.
THEY WERE THERE.
THEY LEFT.
THEY RETURNED.
Now YOU please show how the above were never saved, never believed righteousness.
Gray_Joy
Active Member
You're teaching heresy.
You are free to take that however you wish.
I like to use words as they are defined...
however, you have a problem understanding words anyway...
so I wont' insist.
If you are NOT teaching heresy,,,
you'll have to show how OSAS was taught in the early church.
The church that came right after the death of Jesus and of the Apostles.
Do you have any documentation?
You will not find any.
Know why?
Because the church did not teach OSAS UNTIL
it was first taught by John Calvin in the 1500's
and then picked up and disseminated throughout Protestantism
by John Darby in about 1820.
These are historical facts easily obtainable on the internet.
Please do the same for OSAS.
The early church.
Gnostics need not apply.
Gnostics, BTW, did teach OSAS.
Interesting isn't it?
They believed man could sin all he wanted to because it was the flesh sinning and not the spirit.
You might want to find out about gnostics too.
§They're mentioned in 1 John 2:19
Ah.
Intelligent replies.
Consisting of two words.
Know what is sad?
You are unable to reply to a simple post.
Gray_Joy
Active Member
Good for you. Amen!
They're wilfully sinners. Don't waste your time.
I don't.
Prove it.
When was it taught before John Calvin?
When was it taught before John Darby?
Let's see some documentation that osas was taught in the early church
PRE Augustine,,,the manechean monk who was a gnostic for 10 years before joining the CC
and, due to extreme sinning in his life, came up with the absence of free will so he could blame God for his sinning.
We have the reformed/calvinist heresy now because of him.
John Calvin loved augustine and mentioned him about 4 thousand times in his sermons.
There's a chance you might be calvinist from some words you use.
So you must surely know this history is correct....
so,,,
please show that OSAS was taught in the early church before the heretical Augustine came to invent some new doctrine.
Study some church history and find out what SEALED in the Holy Spirit means.
It's easy these days.
Wasn't so easy in the past.
And this:
God seals us.
HE keeps HIS promise.
Do the save keep theirs?
You better find out what Jesus taught.
Mailmandan is a bit off the rails.
Nice guy.
But when it comes to scripture.....
Yes.
Better find out what Jesus taught.
For isntance, this:
Matthew 7:24-27
24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
25“And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.
26“Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
27“The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.”
Are you a wise man or a foolish man?
Let Jesus tell you.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
So, everything that I explained to you in post #233 just went right over your head. You seem determined to conflate faith with works which culminates in salvation by faith AND works. Let the boasting begin!
I have already thoroughly explained "faith without works is dead" (James 2:20) to you numerous times in the past but you insist on ignoring the context and refuse to properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine.
In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!
So,James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. Hence, faith without works is dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.
Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Show me where I teach "a license to sin/a license for immortality." That is heresy and I do NOT teach that.
Oh the irony.
Gods inffallible Word is the only documentation I need. Fallible writings from fallible men are not infallible.
That is the same sales pitch I hear from Roman Catholics.
God's Word taught OSAS/Eternal security of the believer/preservation of the saints many years before the 1500's.
I'm not a Gnostic and in regard to 1 John 2:19, don't forget - ..for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us.. OSAS
What would make you believe that I accept your incorrect understanding of scripture?
You think you're always right.
Let the boasting begin.
You harmonize scripture by either ignoring it or twisting it.
Been doing a lot of thinking lately.
We have ourselves a big problem here.
Will be posting about it in, maybe, two different threads.
Will tag you in.
Could you please....handsome please....find out what a heresy is?
Must I teach you everything?
I NEVER said you teach a "license to sin".
That is NOT what a heresy is.
Sure.
Too bad those fallible men gave you a book referred to as The Bible.
Fact is....you can't find what I'm looking for.
Prove, with historical documentation , that the early church taught OSAS.
DOESNT EXIST.
Early church.
Only church writings.
gnostics believed in OSAS.
Are you really posting something some fallible man wrote?
But
I thought
you didnt like
fallible men.
Who said you're a gnostic?
Is this how you also understand the Bible?
No.
Really.
And could you take the time to explain how 1 John 2:19 helps your cause.
In 25 words or less.
Apparently you don't trust in the death/burial/resurrection of Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.
Thereby currently classified officially LOST
Yet 1 Cor 15:1-4, Eph 1:13, Eph 4:30 teaches we ARE saved & we ARE sealed if we hear, trust, believe the Gospel.
What verse FROM PAUL do you believe teaches ACTIONS are also required to be saved & sealed ?
....
Here are the ones that that teach NO ACTIONS required.
Titus 3:
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Gal 2:
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Gal 3:
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Rom 3:
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Eph 2:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Rom 4:
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 5:
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 11:
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Hey GG, relying on James, Hebrews, Matthew etc confirms your ignorance re how they do not have the unique Christ given authority as Paul does to teach how we are saved today.
....
Go ahead GG, mock these following verses
Who did Christ select as the Apostle & Minister to the Gentiles ?
Acts 9:15
But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, ...
Rom 11:13
For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles...
Rom 15:16
That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God...
+++
The other Apostles agreed & knew who taught who
Gal 2:2
And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles,....
Gal 2:7
But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
Gal 2:9
And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
++++
What is the role of an Apostle/Minister ?
To teach THEIR audience.
BUT NOW there are NO SEPARATE audiences ALL are equal :-
Gal 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 6:15
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
1 Cor 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Col 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
++++
How are believers 'today' saved, sealed, justified, made righteous ?
By the SAVING Gospel that applies today.
Gal 1:11-12
11But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
1 Cor 15:1-4
1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Eph 1:13
13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
++++
The PERFORMANCE conditions :-
Titus 3:
5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Gal 2:
16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Rom 3:
28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Eph 2:
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Rom 4:
5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 5:
1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
++++
Your 'deeds'/works/behavior/performance only decide your eternal rewards/loss
Rom 14:10
10But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
1 Cor 3:10-15
10According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
2 Cor 5:10
10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Yes sir.
This is what I mean.
You neglect SO MANY passages in the NT.
Did you ever read this one?
Matthew 7.3-5
3“Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
4“Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and behold, the log is in your own eye?
5“You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.
Has God abandoned His post and put YOU in charge?
I think not.
Are you and @Gray_Joy a tag team?
God has retired and put the two of you in charge of proclaiming who is a sinner and who is not?
I suppose declaring someone to be a sinner is a lot easier than engaging.
Here, I'll repeat my post to the other member since you both should really read ALL of the NT
Matthew 7:3-5
3“Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
4“Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and behold, the log is in your own eye?
5“You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.
These are the friends you keep @mailmandan .
Nice huh?
How about you realize what passages in the NT are meant for us while other passages apply to a different audience
