Both Pretribbers and Preterists are clearly wrong that great tribulation begins with the DOTL.

[Spiritual Israelite]

Jesus himself placed the rapture pretrib 4 different places.
Stop acting like he didn't.
You are REASONING yourself into a lie.
Fire your teachers and listen to Jesus.

When you say "pretrib", you mean pre-final wrath. You use the pretrib term differently than everyone else does, so it causes confusion and causes you to look like an ignorant fool. What Jesus taught is that the rapture will occur just before the final wrath comes down when Jesus returns. In that sense everyone is pretrib. Just as Noah went onto the ark just before the flood came and destroyed all unbelievers Jesus said "so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.". That means just after the rapture occurs, all unbelievers will be killed just as happened with the flood in Noah's day. This will happen unexpectedly as no one knows the day or hour it will occur.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away. 36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

The unexpected wrath that will occur when Jesus occurs is also taught by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 and by Peter in 2 Peter 3:10-12. It will be in the form of "sudden destruction" by fire on the earth from which unbelievers "shall not escape".

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You just posted a verse in matt. That after the trib, algels gather in heaven.
Mat 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Ahem, your one verse says angels gather in heaven.
The rapture is the gathering of the bride by Jesus from the earth.

You know there's other accounts of the Olivet Discourse, right? What is going to happen is that the souls of the dead in Christ will be gathered from heaven and then their resurrected, changed bodies united with their souls will be gathered along with those who are alive and remain from the earth and then caught up together to meet Christ in the air. Jesus taught this. Matthew left out the part about the elect being gathered from the earth. Don't forget to read the Mark 13 and Luke 21 accounts which have added details not found in the Matthew account.

Mark 13:24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

If you reread your passage in mat, it is the second coming on white horses.
Rev 19, the Second coming, is in power and great glory.
( post 7 yr trib).

If you remove context, omit verses, and use hyperdefinitions, ( DOTL, TRUMP, TRUMPET, LAST TRUMP, TRIB, WRATH), Then you are guaranteed error.

Take rev 14.
Ask a postribber to unpack the 144,000, Jesus sitting on a cloud with a sickle,and "firstfruits".

They have never been able to honestly take a shot at it, or the virgin parable.
With no red flags!!!!!

The book of Revelation is not all in chronological order as you falsely imagine. Do you think Jesus was born and ascended to heaven (Revelation 12:5) after the seventh trumpet sounded (Revelation 11:15)? If you read the book in a chronological fashion, it will result in confusion and contradictions. Revelation 14:14-20 portrays the one and only future coming of Christ, just as Revelation 6:12-17, Revelation 11:11-13, Revelation 16:17-21, Revelation 19:11-21 and Revelation 20:9 do. The book of Revelation shows multiple angles of the second coming of Christ.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The bride is raptured pretrib.
Mat 24 and 25.
Clear and unmistakable.
Way too much detail to honestly cast it down.
Jesus said it in those 2 passages.
Then Jesus DIRECTLY DECLARES it. TWICE
Rev 3
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.


We see 3 comings in the bible.
Clear as a bell.
Pretrib rapture;
Matt 24 and 25, 1 thess 4 and acts 1, all have a pretrib rapture.

jewish rapture;
Rev 14 clearly vividly depicts The Jewish gathering, complete with firstfruits gathered prior to main harvest, DURING THE TRIB.

2nd coming on horses after the 7 yr trib;
Rev 19
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

No postrib has ever unpacked it.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You are CORRECT!!!

The LORD Jesus Christ Prophesied against the falsehood of 'pre-trib' = Matthew ch24

"Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days......... I Come to gather MY elect"

We who know and love the Truth believe every word from the Mouth of GOD = Matthew 4:4

If you submit to CHRIST's words and that of the HOLY SPIRIT spoken thru the Apostles, you will be set FREE from error by the TRUTH.

Lol
You deliberately misquoted that.
you really hate what it says.
It actually ofends you.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other..

Your reconstructed skewed version is:
"Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days......... I Come to gather MY elect"

Desperately trying to make it read to line up to your false doctrine.

Truth= a gathering in heaven
You= "no, my doctrine can not make that work."

But thanks for admitting investigation is your enemy

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The bride is raptured pretrib.
Mat 24 and 25.
Clear and unmistakable.
Way too much detail to honestly cast it down.
Jesus said it in those 2 passages.
Then Jesus DIRECTLY DECLARES it. TWICE
Rev 3
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.


We see 3 comings in the bible.

LOL! No. Jesus is coming once in the future and He will come from heaven in like manner as He ascended there (visibly and bodily - Acts 1:9-11).

Clear as a bell.
Pretrib rapture;
Matt 24 and 25, 1 thess 4 and acts 1, all have a pretrib rapture.

jewish rapture;
Rev 14 clearly vividly depicts The Jewish gathering, complete with firstfruits gathered prior to main harvest, DURING THE TRIB.

2nd coming on horses after the 7 yr trib;
Rev 19
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

No postrib has ever unpacked it.

Your convoluted nonsense surely does not unpack it. MANY post-tribs have unpacked those verses included several on this forum and you stubbornly refuse to accept the truth that you have been shown.

 

[David in NJ]

More generalized safe nonsense.
Nothing specific.
But thanks for admitting investigation is your enemy

Was not the LORD very specific when HE said "Immediately after the tribulation of those days......I Come for MY elect"

Crystal clear and very specific.

Who has the authority to change these words of God???

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Was not the LORD very specific when HE said "Immediately after the tribulation of those days......I Come for MY elect"

Crystal clear and very specific.

Who has the authority to change these words of God???

This guy thinks that He has the authority to redefine "the tribulation of those days", as if he has more authority than Jesus Himself. You can't possibly be more delusional than this guy is. While everyone else is talking about the timing of the coming of Christ and rapture in relation to "the tribulation of those days", He talks about it in relation to the wrath that will come down when Jesus comes again the one and only time He comes from heaven in the future. We all agree that the rapture will occur before the wrath comes down on the day Jesus returns, so he continues to make a strawman argument in that sense. But, he thinks that life will just continue on and more tribulation will occur after that day, which clearly is never taught anywhere in scripture. Once Jesus comes, that's it. The tribulation of those days will be over at that point and His final wrath comes down. But, this guy thinks more things will somehow happen after that. Did more tribulation and wrath happen after the flood? No. Jesus said in relation to the flood killing all the unbelievers: "so will it be in the coming of the Son of Man". There will not be a bunch of tribulation and things happening on the earth after He comes. Yet, that's what this guy somehow thinks will happen.

 

[LoveYeshua]

And we have tribulation now, in this life, just as Jesus said we would in John 16:33... "I have said these things to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world." The time of tribulation is not yet to come, it is now, but... it will come to an end. Come quickly, Lord Jesus.

Grace and peace to all.

I see the end time tribulation has started, many things point to it but will get much worse

 

[rebuilder 454]

This was great = loved the analogy = ty

You line up with vague nonsense personal mess.
Got it.

It does suit you and him though since neither of you can honestly debate.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Was not the LORD very specific when HE said "Immediately after the tribulation of those days......I Come for MY elect"

Crystal clear and very specific.

Who has the authority to change these words of God???

You changed it.
From "gathered in heaven by angels"
To ..."i come for my elect."
You skewed the words of Jesus for your doctrine.
Sad

 

[LoveYeshua]

You just posted a verse in matt. That after the trib, algels gather in heaven.
Mat 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Ahem, your one verse says angels gather in heaven.
The rapture is the gathering of the bride by Jesus from the earth.
If you reread your passage in mat, it is the second coming on white horses.
Rev 19, the Second coming, is in power and great glory.
( post 7 yr trib).

If you remove context, omit verses, and use hyperdefinitions, ( DOTL, TRUMP, TRUMPET, LAST TRUMP, TRIB, WRATH), Then you are guaranteed error.

Take rev 14.
Ask a postribber to unpack the 144,000, Jesus sitting on a cloud with a sickle,and "firstfruits".

They have never been able to honestly take a shot at it, or the virgin parable.
With no red flags!!!!!

I did at one point give you full scripture and a time frame, it is clear, go back to previous threads I posted on this ita sll there but I remember you did not agree then.

 

[PinSeeker]

"Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, Whom He appointed the heir of all things, through Whom also He created the world." (Hebrews 1:1-2).

As we all know, this was written over two thousand years ago.

Grace and peace to all.

 

[LoveYeshua]

You changed it.
From "gathered in heaven by angels"
To ..."i come for my elect."
You skewed the words of Jesus for your doctrine.
Sad

there is only one absolute truth the words of Jesus our Lord, listen to Him.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I see the end time tribulation has started, many things point to it but will get much worse

Not yet.
But soon.
The stage is set.
Great deception though is here, as I am seeing so many willing to skew passages.
Sadly

 

[rebuilder 454]

I did at one point give you full scripture and a time frame, it is clear, go back to previous threads I posted on this ita sll there but I remember you did not agree then.

Passages have to be reconciled.
I am presenting 4 cases where Jesus declared a pretrib rapture.

3 cases where there are separate comings ( 3 comings)
With out investigation there is limited revelation, and error is incubated and accepted.

 

[rebuilder 454]

there is only one absolute truth the words of Jesus our Lord, listen to Him.

Amen to that.
Why do postribbers not heed scripture?
It is bizarre.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I did at one point give you full scripture and a time frame, it is clear, go back to previous threads I posted on this ita sll there but I remember you did not agree then.

I am 1000% scripture based.
Show me one place I am wrong.
I have over 13 passages that say exactly what they say.
take anything.
anything.
and show me where i am wrong.
I love honest debate.
Dave and si are in no way honest.

 

[LoveYeshua]

Passages have to be reconciled.
I am presenting 4 cases where Jesus declared a pretrib rapture.

3 cases where there are separate comings ( 3 comings)
With out investigation there is limited revelation, and error is incubated and accepted.

I do not mind listening to what you have to say, please write what you mean but use scripture to make your point. do not forget the end time prophecy of the O.T. they give a lot of insight on how Christ will return in the last days. No rush, please take your time then we will debate if you want. I have no learned denominational preconception, all I know if from scripture and only scripture.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I will try.
Needle in a haystack.
Maybe when I have 20 minutes to burn.

 

[David in NJ]

You changed it.
From "gathered in heaven by angels"
To ..."i come for my elect."
You skewed the words of Jesus for your doctrine.
Sad

Here is the exact specific words of our Savior and LORD

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Do you know that the Apostle Peter spoke this exact timing of the 2nd Coming by the HOLY SPIRIT???

But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words.
For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day.
But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.
18And on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
And they shall prophesy.
19I will show wonders in heaven above
And signs in the earth beneath:
Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
20The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
21And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the Lord
Shall be saved.’