Only one rapture of all the saints, and only one second coming of Christ

[Scott Downey]

Actually, contrary to popular opinion, there are 5 raptures.

1. The dead in Christ rise first. The spring barley harvest. The alive remain.

2. The Lord returns for the alive that remain. The summer wheat harvest. This completes the grain harvest. Both are secret raptures according to scripture.

3. The 144,000 first fruits of the 12 tribes are raptured.

4. The Lord comes at the Last Trump blown on the Feast of Trumpets. This is the fall fruit harvest. It will occur at the end of the age which is the 6th seal. This is the rapture of the Jews as the 144,000 are first fruits of this harvest.

5. Two witnesses are raptured during the wrath of God.

That word the 'rapture' does not exist in scripture, it is a theme word.
Since you wont read it in scripture, people apply that word to many things that occur.
You identify 5, but why not call for 6 or 7, perhaps 8, since your definition is so broad.

Genesis 5
22 After he begot Methuselah, Enoch walked with God three hundred years, and had sons and daughters. 23 So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. 24 And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.

2 Kings 2
And it came to pass, when the Lord was about to take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal. 2 Then Elijah said to Elisha, “Stay here, please, for the Lord has sent me on to Bethel.”

But Elisha said, “As the Lord lives, and as your soul lives, I will not leave you!” So they went down to Bethel.

3 Now the sons of the prophets who were at Bethel came out to Elisha, and said to him, “Do you know that the Lord will take away your master [a]from over you today?”

And he said, “Yes, I know; keep silent!”

4 Then Elijah said to him, “Elisha, stay here, please, for the Lord has sent me on to Jericho.”

But he said, “As the Lord lives, and as your soul lives, I will not leave you!” So they came to Jericho.

5 Now the sons of the prophets who were at Jericho came to Elisha and said to him, “Do you know that the Lord will take away your master from over you today?”

So he answered, “Yes, I know; keep silent!”

6 Then Elijah said to him, “Stay here, please, for the Lord has sent me on to the Jordan.”

But he said, “As the Lord lives, and as your soul lives, I will not leave you!” So the two of them went on. 7 And fifty men of the sons of the prophets went and stood facing them at a distance, while the two of them stood by the Jordan. 8 Now Elijah took his mantle, rolled it up, and struck the water; and it was divided this way and that, so that the two of them crossed over on dry ground.

9 And so it was, when they had crossed over, that Elijah said to Elisha, “Ask! What may I do for you, before I am taken away from you?”

Elisha said, “Please let a double portion of your spirit be upon me.”

10 So he said, “You have asked a hard thing. Nevertheless, if you see me when I am taken from you, it shall be so for you; but if not, it shall not be so.” 11 Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

12 And Elisha saw it, and he cried out, “My father, my father, the chariot of Israel and its horsemen!” So he saw him no more. And he took hold of his own clothes and tore them into two pieces. 13 He also took up the mantle of Elijah that had fallen from him, and went back and stood by the bank of the Jordan. 14 Then he took the mantle of Elijah that had fallen from him, and struck the water, and said, “Where is the Lord God of Elijah?” And when he also had struck the water, it was divided this way and that; and Elisha crossed over.

 

[The Light]

That word the 'rapture' does not exist in scripture, it is a theme word.
Since you wont read it in scripture, people apply that word to many things that occur.

Caught up to be with the Lord pretty much covers it.

You identify 5, but why not call for 6 or 7, perhaps 8, since your definition is so broad.

If there was 6 or 7 or perhaps 8, I would identify them. Since there are only 5 that's all I identified.

 

[Scott Downey]

Rapture is very commonly thought of as the gathering of the church when Christ comes for them with His angels

Caught up to be with the Lord pretty much covers it.


If there was 6 or 7 or perhaps 8, I would identify them. Since there are only 5 that's all I identified.

Your not very consistent.

When you add in all these other people caught up to heaven this is not the rapture.

The 'rapture' is when Christ comes for His church, as in gathers them, that is it and is the historical understanding.
Christ only taught one gathering of His people to Himself, and that is at the second coming.

The new understanding adds in lots more raptures.

 

[Davidpt]

Yes.
It says after the trib ANGELS GATHER.
It says JESUS SENDS...obviously Jesus is not involved.
Jesus STAYS...ANGELS GO GATHER.
that is EXACTLY WHAT it says.

Where?
Where do angels( not Jesus) gather saints?

From heaven and heavens atmosphere, ( THE UTTERMOST PART OF EARTH)

Your selected passage ONLY FITS a pretrib rapture because in the rapture JESUS GATHERS.
In your verses ANGELS GATHER AND JESUS is missing.

Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.


Point out in the text where you see a coming of Christ, in any sense, taking place before when verse 21 is meaning. Where do you see in the text before that of verse 21, 1 Thessalonians 4:17 taking place? What verse or verses before verse 21 support that 1 Thessalonians 4:17 precedes verse 21?

He who alleges must prove, otherwise it is absurd to take that person seriously if they can't even prove with the texts what it is they are alleging.

 

[ScottA]

Apparently you can't.
Those dynamics you added are not in the bibles obvious understanding.

By "obvious", it would appear you mean the Bible's "common" understanding. But no, I was referring--not to how it appears to read--but what the Spirit says.

Big (and fatal) difference.

 

[CrowCross]

. The Greek Word for "Coming" (Parousia) Does Not Allow an "Invisible" Return​

Pre-trib and mid-trib theories often rely on dividing Christ's return into two phases: a quiet, secret, or "invisible" coming for the church, followed later by a public, visible "Second Coming" in judgment.

As a pre-trib believer of the truth concerning the rapture....I don't believe it will be a secret rapture but just the opposite.

How would the disappearance of a billion christians be secret?
Now the date.....that's God secret.

2. The "Last Trumpet" Destroys a Mid-Trib or Pre-Trib Timeline​

Paul specifically anchors the resurrection and transformation of living believers to a very specific chronological marker: the last trumpet (1 Corinthians 15:52).

I believe we have had this conversation before....there are several interpretations on what the trumpets are or could be...but....you insist it is MUST be the trumpet in Rev 11:15.

As I said here...
Some have made a difference between trumpets of God and trumpets of angels.
Some have said the last trumpet is associated with the blowing of trumpets at the Jewish festivals.
Some have said it's the 7th trumpet presented in Revelation.

So, I hope you correct your assertion that the "last trumpet" destroys the mid-trib or pre-trib timeline.

3. The New Testament Knows Only One "Gathering Together"​

When Paul addresses the exact concern of believers being confused about the timing of being gathered to Christ, he explicitly ties it to one major event.

• In 2 Thessalonians 2:1–3, Paul begs the church not to be shaken by the idea that the Day of the Lord has already come, reminding them that the gathering together to Christ will not happen until the "man of lawlessness" is revealed. He treats the gathering and the revelation of Christ as a single, simultaneous event, not split across two separate timelines years apart.

The gathering of 2 Thes 2....is associated with the removal of the RESTRAINER..which includes the Church...THEN...the antichrist is revealed...WHICH....shows the rapture is long, long before you suggest it it.

4. Where Does Scripture Invent "Tribulation Saints" Separated from the Church?​

The idea that God has two separate groups of redeemed people with two entirely different destiny timelines—one body raptured early, and another group of "tribulation saints" caught up later—violates the core New Testament unity of the Body of Christ.

• Paul states in Ephesians 4:4–5 that there is "one body and one Spirit... one hope to which you were called."
• Splitting the redeemed into separate classes with separate extraction dates turns the "one hope" into two entirely different hopes.

There is no INVENTION of tribulation saints. They simply exist as the bible says they do.

Do you think after the pre-trib rapture people won't be able to come to Jesus and get saved?

 

[ScottA]

If every man is the 'man of sin' then why did Paul write like he did?
Cause every man before they are saved is a slave of sin and following Satan as sons of disobedience, that was well taught to the early church.

Ephesians 2
And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the [a]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

The difference for that coming man of sin Paul writes like this,

2 Thessalonians 2
6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the [d]mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only [e]He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Paul describes the lawless one as fully empowered by Satanic powers, satanic signs, lying wonders who deceives the entire unbelieving world.
These are not the general attributes of everyday unbelieving sinners....
Meaning it points to someone special and different.

It also agrees with what Christ taught about who shows up right before He returns a second time bodily in a glorious appearing....

Paul and Jesus are describing the same things and event here and the same second coming of Christ.


Mark 13
19 For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be. 20 And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

21 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or, ‘Look, He is there!’ do not believe it.
22 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the [g]elect.
23 But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.

The Coming of the Son of Man​

24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His [h]elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

You're not putting everything together (missing the forest for the trees).

What are "the workings of Satan?" Sin-- which includes every man since the beginning. And the "then" in "then He will send his and gather His elect"--when is "then" that causes you to be so convinced? Then is at the last trump. But consider yourself--when will last trump occur? When for your father and grandfather? If not yet, are waiting where time no longer ticks for a moment where no mre moments come to pass? Did they miss it, will they miss that time because their time has already ceased? No, but as Paul explained regarding all dead or living, saying "but"--"but each one in his own order."

When I say what amounts to the same thing why do you not receive it? Do you not know that to reject the same message as the the message of another, is to reject them both and also Him who sent them?

And was Paul's message not true because he did not quote Jesus verbatim? No...but you are to hear His voice regardless.

 

[The Light]

Christ only taught one gathering of His people to Himself, and that is at the second coming.

The gathering is the gathering from heaven and earth.

Mark 13
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

This occurs at the 6th seal at the end of the age.

The Church is gathered from heaven as we are raptured to heaven before the great tribulaiton.

It is the 12 tribes that are gathered from the earth.

The two folds become one fold, the great multitude.

 

[GodsGrace]

1. The Greek Word for "Coming" (Parousia) Does Not Allow an "Invisible" Return​

Pre-trib and mid-trib theories often rely on dividing Christ's return into two phases: a quiet, secret, or "invisible" coming for the church, followed later by a public, visible "Second Coming" in judgment.

• The Problem: The New Testament uses the word Parousia (presence/arrival) for Christ's return, and it consistently describes it as loud, visible, and unmistakable.
• 1 Thessalonians 4:16 explicitly says He descends with a "cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God." That is the exact opposite of quiet or invisible.
• Furthermore, Revelation 1:7 declares: "Behold, every eye will see him, even those who pierced him..." There is no biblical category for a secret, invisible extraction of believers where the rest of the world misses the event entirely.

2. The "Last Trumpet" Destroys a Mid-Trib or Pre-Trib Timeline​

Paul specifically anchors the resurrection and transformation of living believers to a very specific chronological marker: the last trumpet (1 Corinthians 15:52).

• If a group of believers is raptured mid-tribulation, and another group is raptured at the end of the tribulation (at the visible Second Coming), how can there be a "last" trumpet for the second group?
• If trumpets are still sounding for a subsequent gathering of "tribulation saints" years later, the first trumpet wasn't the last one. Paul uses "last" to signify the final punctuation mark of human history, leaving no room for a repeat performance.

3. The New Testament Knows Only One "Gathering Together"​

When Paul addresses the exact concern of believers being confused about the timing of being gathered to Christ, he explicitly ties it to one major event.

• In 2 Thessalonians 2:1–3, Paul begs the church not to be shaken by the idea that the Day of the Lord has already come, reminding them that the gathering together to Christ will not happen until the "man of lawlessness" is revealed. He treats the gathering and the revelation of Christ as a single, simultaneous event, not split across two separate timelines years apart.

4. Where Does Scripture Invent "Tribulation Saints" Separated from the Church?​

The idea that God has two separate groups of redeemed people with two entirely different destiny timelines—one body raptured early, and another group of "tribulation saints" caught up later—violates the core New Testament unity of the Body of Christ.

• Paul states in Ephesians 4:4–5 that there is "one body and one Spirit... one hope to which you were called."
• Splitting the redeemed into separate classes with separate extraction dates turns the "one hope" into two entirely different hopes.

Don't know too much about eschatology,,,
but I do agree with you.

Jesus is coming back one time to gather everyone.
Those that have already died will go first...
and then those still living.


1 Thessalonians 4:16-18
16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
18Therefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[brightfame52]

There are still many things wrong in what you have stated.

Putting the rapture (so called) aside, you are looking at the last trump and the man of sin all wrong. Most assume the passages and meaning are as big as this world, and it is true, but not in the way most assume. As all things are in Christ as One man (as it is also written of Adam) the matter is personal. In other words, who is a man of sin by definition, but every man? And likewise, what is the last trump of every man, but his own last breath and heart beat? In these very simple matters all that is written is true--the flesh returns to the dust and the spirit to God who gave it--but with all this being true, do you see what these truths do to the timing of every passage?

But who can hear it and receive it?

The Man of Sin is the false religions of Man inspired by the devil, in the name of Christianity. Freewill religion mostly !

 

[ScottA]

The Man of Sin is the false religions of Man inspired by the devil, in the name of Christianity. Freewill religion mostly !

So...you were never a man of sin revealed as every man is--am I speaking with Jesus?

 

[The Light]

As a pre-trib believer of the truth concerning the rapture....I don't believe it will be a secret rapture but just the opposite.

How would the disappearance of a billion christians be secret?
Now the date.....that's God secret.

When He comes for His bride, the world will not see Him. Only those looking for Him are going to see Him.

Hebrews 9
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

 

[JimKnox]

The Man of Sin is the false religions of Man inspired by the devil, in the name of Christianity. Freewill religion mostly !

Calvinism is one of the daughters of the (harlot) Roman church. Take it to a different thread.

 

[CrowCross]

When He comes for His bride, the world will not see Him. Only those looking for Him are going to see Him.

I think the world will see the christians ascending into the clouds....I don't know how fast the ascension will be.
Those present at the ascension saw Jesus ascending.

Those not raptured will see the result of a billion or so christians suddenly missing. I imagine if you're a passenger in a car and the rapture takes the driver.

Hebrews 9
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

 

[The Light]

I think the world will see the christians ascending into the clouds....I don't know how fast the ascension will be.
Those present at the ascension saw Jesus ascending.

I don't believe that the world will see the Christians. We will just disappear. Why do you think that Satan has spent so much time explaining people disappearing via alien abductions? Beam me up Scotty. How many shows and movies show people disappearing and aliens doing it? That is the lie that the world will believe.

Here is the rapture of the Church in the Old Testament. The first part reveals that the Lord is hidden behind a wall showing Himself through the lattice of the windows. It is the spring barley harvest. Winter is past, the flowers appear and the birds are singing. This is the rapture of the dead in Christ.

Song of Solomon 2
8 The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.

9 My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice.

10 My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.

11 For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone;

12 The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land;

This is the rapture of the alive that remain. It is the summer wheat harvest Jesus is hidden in the secret places. The world will not see the rapture of the Church. People will just disappear.


13 The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away.

14 O my dove, that art in the clefts of the rock, in the secret places of the stairs, let me see thy countenance, let me hear thy voice; for sweet is thy voice, and thy countenance is comely.