Both Pretribbers and Preterists are clearly wrong that great tribulation begins with the DOTL.

[rebuilder 454]

Well???

According to the words of the LORD, of the "two" = Who was taken away???

Please post the verse where the LORD was specific to exactly who was "taken" in Matthew 24:36-44

Do some research.
You guys claim to practically own mat 24.

That word "taken" in the Greek is "taken to a good place".
Start there.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Zero in,
40Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming

Boom.
You are getting the full truth of it.
...and yet you are dumbfounded.
Oblivious to it.

Yes indeed...WHO IS TAKEN?
Take a shot at it.
You won't

Here is how to properly understand who is taken and who is left and what happens to those who are taken and those who are left when Jesus comes unexpectedly as a thief in the night.

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed. 31 “In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. 32 Remember Lot’s wife. 33 Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.” 37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?” So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

Let's start at the beginning to see what Jesus taught in this passage. First, in verses 26 and 27, He talks about the days leading up to His second coming being similar to the days of Noah that preceded the flood. Then He points out that "the flood came and destroyed them all". All who were left behind outside the ark were destroyed, in other words. Then He points out similar things about the days of Lot in comparison to the days leading up to the second coming of Christ and He again points out that all unbelievers who were not taken out from Sodom like Lot and his family were left behind in the city and were destroyed by fire.

Then Jesus points out that no one should try to save their possessions because it will be too late for anyone to do that and anyone doing that is too attached to the world and their life in this world instead of being focused on eternity and being with Jesus like they should be. Lot's wife is given as an example of how we can't be too attached to this world and our lives in this world. That is unacceptable to God for us to love our lives in this world more than we love Him. Lot's wife paid the price for loving the world and her life in this world more than God and that's a warning for everyone.

Then Jesus, using Lot's wife as an example, said that those who want to keep their life, like Lot's wife did, will lose it (will be killed) and whoever loses their life (is willing to give up their lives for God) will preserve it (will be spared and not killed).

Then we get to verse 34 where Jesus gives examples of two people being together with one being taken and one left. Those verses, in and of themselves, tell us nothing about what happens to those taken and to those left, but we can figure that out from the previous verses that speak of events where some were taken away and escaped God's wrath and some were left behind and did not escape His wrath, like in Noah and Lot's days. From those events, regardless of what it means to be taken and what it means to be left (there is some disagreement about that), we know that it means all people either survive Christ's second coming or they are killed. The ones who are left behind on the earth do not survive to face tribulation as pre-tribs like you believe. They are killed just as those left behind out of the ark were killed and those left behind in Sodom were killed.

Some people think the question the disciples asked at that point ("Where, Lord?") is related to where those who are taken are taken to, but I disagree with that. I think they are just asking where it will take place that one is taken and one is left and Jesus is saying it will happen wherever a dead body is found. Since His second coming is a global event, His answer to the question is basically "everywhere" since unbelievers all over the world will suffer His wrath and vengeance when He comes (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-12).
So, this passage is a problem for pre-tribs who think those left behind survive to live another day and then have to face "the tribulation". No, they do not. They will be killed just as those left behind on the earth outside the ark were all killed in Noah's day and just like those who were left behind in Sodom were all killed in Lot's day.

Notice how I went through this entire passage to show exactly how I interpret it. Can you do the same to show how you interpret it?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well???

According to the words of the LORD, of the "two" = Who was taken away???

Please post the verse where the LORD was specific to exactly who was "taken" in Matthew 24:36-44

It's a waste of time to debate who is taken and who is left. What we know is that one is saved and one is unsaved and we agree with pretribs that one being taken and one being left occurs when the rapture occurs. So, the discussion should be about what happens to those who are saved and what happens to those who are unsaved when Christ comes and the rapture occurs. What happens to the unsaved is clearly shown in Luke 17:26-37. They end up as bird food (Luke 17:37). They end up being killed just as all unbelievers were killed by the flood in Noah's day and all the unbelievers in Sodom were killed in Lot's day (Luke 17:26-30).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

50% taken.
Half go, half stay.
It says exactly that.
No blenderizing, no additives, no omissions.
It says EXACTLY that.

But, it's a parable. Jesus is not intending to say that exactly half of all people will be taken and exactly half will be left when Jesus comes and the rapture occurs. That's silly. He is simply illustrating two different fates with all people experiencing either one or the other. One for those who are saved and one for those who are unsaved. In Luke 17:26-37 Jesus indicates that the fate of those who are saved at that point will be the same as it was for those who were left outside the ark in Noah's day and left in Sodom in Lot's day. They will be killed. Obviously, those who are raptured, in contrast, will have put on bodily immortality at that point, as we all agree will happen when the rapture occurs.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Imagine that.
You are now saying a preflood rapture where all are taken?
Jesus was really confused?
He says all are taken, then he changes to only half?

Which is it?

Wow how confusing for you.
Look....Lay aside doctrine.
Look where it is taking you.
Into a desert.
Confusion.

The confusion, in relation to who are taken and who are left, comes from the fact that two different Greek words are used and translated as "taken" in that passage. The Greek word used to describe those taken away by the flood is different than the Greek word used to describe the one taken in contrast to the one left. The word used to describe the one taken is "paralambanō" (Strong's G3880) and it means "to take to, to take with one's self, to join to one's self" or "to receive something transmitted". So, I think it makes the most sense as seeing the one being taken as referring to those in the church being taken up to meet Christ in the air with those left being the ones who end up being killed just as those who were outside the ark in Noah's day were all killed after Noah and his family entered the ark and just as those in Sodom were all killed after Lot and his family went out of Sodom.

 

[amigo de christo]

Tribulation BEGAN the moment Eve was deceived.

and deception began the moment eve believed the lie .
Just as it begins the moment folks heed men over what GOD has said , Christ has said .
What is clearly written in the scrips is plain to see f or all who are His sheep .
And here it is for all to see .
THIS COMING again OF JESUS is a ONE TIME EVENT Folks . TO lay down THE WRATH OF GOD
against all who loved a lie , the beast , and all
As HE also comes for HIS OWN . ITS A ONE time event . NOT TWO seperate events . ONE TIME . very clearly
this is seen in the scriptures . Even in the writings of paul and of pe ter . VERY clearly seen .

 

[rebuilder 454]

Here is the exact specific words of our Savior and LORD

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Do you know that the Apostle Peter spoke this exact timing of the 2nd Coming by the HOLY SPIRIT???

But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words.
For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day.
But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.
18And on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
And they shall prophesy.
19I will show wonders in heaven above
And signs in the earth beneath:
Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
20The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
21And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the Lord
Shall be saved.’

You changed the wording of mat 24.
You did that.

 

[rebuilder 454]

and deception began the moment eve believed the lie .
Just as it begins the moment folks heed men over what GOD has said , Christ has said .
What is clearly written in the scrips is plain to see f or all who are His sheep .
And here it is for all to see .
THIS COMING again OF JESUS is a ONE TIME EVENT Folks . TO lay down THE WRATH OF GOD
against all who loved a lie , the beast , and all
As HE also comes for HIS OWN . ITS A ONE time event . NOT TWO seperate events . ONE TIME . very clearly
this is seen in the scriptures . Even in the writings of paul and of pe ter . VERY clearly seen .

Not even close.
Rev 14;.14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
Jesus sitting on a cloud gathering DURING THE TRIB.
REV 19
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God..

Nothing can change that, but you are acting like it is not even there.
2 separate comings.
Fact.
Only explanation, for your ability to miss it, is deception.

 

[LoveYeshua]

The bride is raptured pretrib.
Mat 24 and 25.
Clear and unmistakable.
Way too much detail to honestly cast it down.
Jesus said it in those 2 passages.
Then Jesus DIRECTLY DECLARES it. TWICE
Rev 3
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.


We see 3 comings in the bible.
Clear as a bell.
Pretrib rapture;
Matt 24 and 25, 1 thess 4 and acts 1, all have a pretrib rapture.

jewish rapture;
Rev 14 clearly vividly depicts The Jewish gathering, complete with firstfruits gathered prior to main harvest, DURING THE TRIB.

2nd coming on horses after the 7 yr trib;
Rev 19
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

No postrib has ever unpacked it.

I have to examine the details and will get back to you within a few days.

Blessings Brother.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You changed the wording of mat 24.
You did that.

He said "My elect" in relation to Jesus. The text says "His elect". Either way it refers to Jesus's elect being gathered. And Mark 13:27 makes it clear that they are gathered from both heaven and earth. You're making a mountain out of a mole hill here.

 

[PinSeeker]

Tribulation BEGAN when Eve was deceived by the Serpent.

In a certain sense, yes. But Eve as not the primary person at fault and held accountable by God. But yes, all of creation became fallen (full of sin and subject to death) and in need of redemption.

Count to 3 with me

<chuckles> <sigh>

the "last days" began when:
#1 - Christ defeated satan and sin on the Cross
#2 - when HE rose from the Dead and Ascended to Heaven
#3 - when the BAPTISM of the Holy Spirit Descended Upon the Elect of GOD

I mean, what you say here raises several questions in my mind. I don't need answers, but here are two (which are very closely related):

1. You say tribulation began when Eve was deceived by the Serpent, but then you say the last days began when Christ was crucified, resurrected, and ascended to heaven and the Holy Spirit came (which I have another question about in a moment). The question is ~ and it's a bit ridiculous even to have to ask, really ~ do you believe the crucifixion/resurrection/ascension took place even before the fall? Surely not...
2. Point number three doesn't really make sense, frankly. Baptism by the Holy Spirit is individual, not collective, upon God's elect. It happens individually, once and for all, at the moment one is born again by the Spirit. So, related to the first question above, logically then, since this baptism is individual and still ongoing (people are still being born again of the Spirit... <smild>), and coupling this with your statement that do you believe the fall of Adam and Eve still has not taken place?

Both of these questions are absurd, but they are the implications of what you're saying.

All 3 MUST be accomplished BEFORE the "Last Days" Began

And they were... if, regarding number 3, you believe the Holy Spirit began His work among the elect of God, which is still ongoing today... but I don't think you do. <smile> The "baptims of the Holy Spirit" didn't "descend upon the elect"... that doesn't even make sense. At Pentecost (Acts 2), the Holy Spirit Himself came ~ which Jesus said would happen in John 14 ~ and began His work of baptism upon individual members of God's elect.

Again (as cited above), "in these last days (God) has spoken to us by His Son." You disagree, and I understand, but no debate necessary.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[David in NJ]

Do some research.
You guys claim to practically own mat 24.

That word "taken" in the Greek is "taken to a good place".
Start there.

JESUS Says "they" were "taken away by the Flood" = DESTROYED

Audio Cross Study Comm Greek Verse (Chapter ▾ Par ▾ Str ▾) New International Version and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. New Living Translation People didn’t realize what was going to happen until the flood came and swept them all away. That is the way it will be when the Son of Man comes. English Standard Version and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Berean Standard Bible And they were oblivious until the flood came and swept them all away. So will it be at the coming of the Son of Man. Berean Literal Bible And they did not know until the flood came and took away all. So also will be the coming of the Son of Man. King James Bible And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. New King James Version and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. New American Standard Bible and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.

 

[David in NJ]

Do some research.
You guys claim to practically own mat 24.

That word "taken" in the Greek is "taken to a good place".
Start there.

until
ἕως (heōs)
Conjunction
Strong's Greek 2193: A conjunction, preposition and adverb of continuance, until.

the
ὁ (ho)
Article - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's Greek 3588: The, the definite article. Including the feminine he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the.

flood
κατακλυσμὸς (kataklysmos)
Noun - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's Greek 2627: A deluge, flood. From katakluzo; an inundation.

came
ἦλθεν (ēlthen)
Verb - Aorist Indicative Active - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's Greek 2064: To come, go.

and
καὶ (kai)
Conjunction
Strong's Greek 2532: And, even, also, namely.

swept them all away
ἦρεν (ēren)
Verb - Aorist Indicative Active - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's Greek 142: To raise, lift up, take away, remove.

ἅπαντας (hapantas)
Adjective - Accusative Masculine Plural
Strong's Greek 537: All, the whole, altogether. Absolutely all or every one.

 

[David in NJ]

In a certain sense, yes. But Eve as not the primary person at fault and held accountable by God. But yes, all of creation became fallen (full of sin and subject to death) and in need of redemption.


<chuckles> <sigh>


I mean, what you say here raises several questions in my mind. I don't need answers, but here are two (which are very closely related):

1. You say tribulation began when Eve was deceived by the Serpent, but then you say the last days began when Christ was crucified, resurrected, and ascended to heaven and the Holy Spirit came (which I have another question about in a moment). The question is ~ and it's a bit ridiculous even to have to ask, really ~ do you believe the crucifixion/resurrection/ascension took place even before the fall? Surely not...
2. Point number three doesn't really make sense, frankly. Baptism by the Holy Spirit is individual, not collective, upon God's elect. It happens individually, once and for all, at the moment one is born again by the Spirit. So, related to the first question above, logically then, since this baptism is individual and still ongoing (people are still being born again of the Spirit... <smild>), and coupling this with your statement that do you believe the fall of Adam and Eve still has not taken place?

Both of these questions are absurd, but they are the implications of what you're saying.


And they were... if, regarding number 3, you believe the Holy Spirit began His work among the elect of God, which is still ongoing today... but I don't think you do. <smile> The "baptims of the Holy Spirit" didn't "descend upon the elect"... that doesn't even make sense. At Pentecost (Acts 2), the Holy Spirit Himself came ~ which Jesus said would happen in John 14 ~ and began His work of baptism upon individual members of God's elect.

Again (as cited above), "in these last days (God) has spoken to us by His Son." You disagree, and I understand, but no debate necessary.

Grace and peace to you.

It happens individually, once and for all, at the moment one is born again by the Spirit.

Not according to JESUS and the Truth given to us in Acts.

There is a REASON why GOD allowed the Baptism of the Holy Spirit to, at FIRST, immediately fall upon those who believed.

But you would not know that! <chuckles> <sigh> <cry>

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Not even close.
Rev 14;.14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
Jesus sitting on a cloud gathering DURING THE TRIB.
REV 19
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God..

Nothing can change that, but you are acting like it is not even there.
2 separate comings.
Fact.
Only explanation, for your ability to miss it, is deception.

Why did you stop at verse 16 in Revelation 14? Revelation 14:14-20 describes the same event as described in passages like Matthew 24:29-39, 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:4 and 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10. With the event being the second coming of Christ. All of those passages talk about believers being gathered with unbelievers being punished with God's wrath as part of the same event.

Compare what Jesus said will happen at the coming of the Son of Man with Revelation 14:14-20.

First, Jesus described what will happen to believers (the elect) at the coming of the Son of Man.

Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The above corresponds with this:

Revelation 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Since the above passage correlates with Matthew 24:29-31, that means the above passage describes Christ's post-trib rapture ("immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days") coming.

Jesus then indicated that believers would be able to recognize signs of His second coming and then He said this:

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away. 36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

The above passage, which is part of the same event of the coming of the Son of Man, corresponds to this:

Revelation 14:17 Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, “Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe.” 19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses’ bridles, for one thousand six hundred furlongs.

In no way, shape or form did Jesus indicate that Matthew 24:29-31 and Matthew 24:35-39 are referring to two different events and there is no indication that Revelation 14:14-16 and Revelation 14:17-20 are referring to two completely different events, either.

 

[PinSeeker]

Not according to JESUS and the Truth given to us in Acts.

So you think. Yeah, that's cool. Strange how I quoted some of Jesus's exact words and you still deny them, but okay.

There is a REASON why GOD allowed the Baptism of the Holy Spirit to, at FIRST, immediately fall upon those who believed.

Hmmm, well at least here you're talking about baptism by the Holy Spirit happening to individuals, so yeah, I like that. But I would turn that around and say that those who believe do so because they get baptized by the Spirit.

But you would not know that! <chuckles> <sigh> <cry>

Yeah not sure where you get some of your ideas, that's for sure. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[rebuilder 454]

In Matthew 24:36-42 there are only two groups specified by the LORD

1st Group = "they were eating, drinking and given in marriage"

2nd Group = "the day Noah entered the Ark"

The Wrath of GOD Descended the SAME Day for BOTH Groups = "as in the days of Noah"

Only Noah(8 total) Survived the FLOOD/WRATH because they were in the ARK which GOD commanded for Noah to build.

SAME DAY for us as it were for Noah
Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, 3knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Jesus uses an allegory.
He illustrates the rapture in allegory.
The components are:
Noah
His family.
The flood.
SPECIFICALLY BEFORE THE FLOOD
The setting is beforeTHE flood.
It has a gathering of HALF a group.(50% taken)
SO NOBODY IS KILLED BEFORE THE FLOOD.
EITHER IN THE FLOOD OR IN THE ANALOGY.

Your doctrine states that the church goes through the flood....( goes through the trib)
Then your doctrine states that the wicked all die as in the flood....huh????? Flat out silly.
That is your doctrine .
You can not unpacked who is taken.
You do not have a plausible answer.

That is your position.
But look at the corner you paint yourself into.
When it is pointed out that half a group is taken, YOUR DOCTRINE says it is a "wicked people rapture"
The wicked are taken?
It is like saying half the world is righteous half wicked.
It DOES NOT FIT.

 

[rebuilder 454]

until
ἕως (heōs)
Conjunction
Strong's Greek 2193: A conjunction, preposition and adverb of continuance, until.

the
ὁ (ho)
Article - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's Greek 3588: The, the definite article. Including the feminine he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the.

flood
κατακλυσμὸς (kataklysmos)
Noun - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's Greek 2627: A deluge, flood. From katakluzo; an inundation.

came
ἦλθεν (ēlthen)
Verb - Aorist Indicative Active - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's Greek 2064: To come, go.

and
καὶ (kai)
Conjunction
Strong's Greek 2532: And, even, also, namely.

swept them all away
ἦρεν (ēren)
Verb - Aorist Indicative Active - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's Greek 142: To raise, lift up, take away, remove.

ἅπαντας (hapantas)
Adjective - Accusative Masculine Plural
Strong's Greek 537: All, the whole, altogether. Absolutely all or every one.

You have to have a plausible model.
What are you trying to prove.
All die before the flood?????
You are painting yourself into a corner.

What are you saying???
The church is not taken, and all the world dies but a few Christians???
What is your point?????

Jesus is using an anolgy to illustrate the rapture.
You = "no he is just saying all died in the flood."
Man.... do you ever get stuff messed up.

 

[rebuilder 454]

JESUS Says "they" were "taken away by the Flood" = DESTROYED

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Audio Cross Study Comm Greek Verse (Chapter ▾ Par ▾ Str ▾) New International Version and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. New Living Translation People didn’t realize what was going to happen until the flood came and swept them all away. That is the way it will be when the Son of Man comes. English Standard Version and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Berean Standard Bible And they were oblivious until the flood came and swept them all away. So will it be at the coming of the Son of Man. Berean Literal Bible And they did not know until the flood came and took away all. So also will be the coming of the Son of Man. King James Bible And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. New King James Version and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. New American Standard Bible and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Half of a group taken and destroyed?
Half of what group is taken and destroyed before the flood?????
You made that up big time.
It in no way fits anything.

 

[rebuilder 454]

HalleluYAH my brother,

Noah entered the ARK = pre-Flood = pre-Wrath = Gospel = 1 thess 1:10

New Living Translation
And they speak of how you are looking forward to the coming of God’s Son from heaven—Jesus, whom God raised from the dead. He is the one who has rescued us from the terrors of the coming judgment.

English Standard Version
and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

Berean Standard Bible
and to await His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead—Jesus our deliverer from the coming wrath.

Berean Literal Bible
and to await His Son from the heavens, whom He raised out from the dead—Jesus, the One delivering us from the coming wrath.

King James Bible
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

New King James Version
and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

New American Standard Bible
and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is, Jesus who rescues us from the wrath to come.

Well if you are a "one coming" adherent, Jesus comes ( as in your matt model) postrib and postwrath.
So if you are also in the "one coming" deception, then you have to understand you claim to go through the wrath also, since the postribbers declare there is only one coming.

Huh?????
Your deal is getting worse with every dynamic you introduce.

I get on the board and watch you guys go against the bible everytime.