The Coherent Causality Argument

[Eternal Entity]

I reject this series of premises. Agree with supernatural being beyond natural laws. However, a supernatural cause is not beyond understanding and evidence, at least on some level.

One of the flaws of modern thinking is just because we can explain something makes it less of a miracle. We may not know HOW of the supernatural but we certainly know and can know the WHAT and the WHY and the WHEN.

Re the HOW vs. WHAT/WHY/WHEN distinction:
You said:

"We may not know HOW of the supernatural but we certainly know and can know the WHAT and the WHY and the WHEN."

WHAT - We can know that something happened (e.g., a healing, a multiplication of food, a resurrection).
WHEN - We can know when it happened.
WHY - We can know the purpose or meaning of the event.
HOW -The mechanism by which it happened.
The CCA does not deny that we can know the WHAT, WHEN, and WHY of an event. It questions whether we can have a coherent causal explanation (HOW) without a physical mechanism. Without that, supernaturalists claims are gaps not explanations.

Re understanding:
You said:

"A supernatural cause is not beyond understanding and evidence, at least on some level."

If we know the WHAT, WHEN, and WHY of an event, do we "understand" it (the "How")?
The CCA would say: Partially, yes. But not fully.
We might understand the significance of the event.
We might understand the purpose of the event.
We might understand the context of the event.

But if we do not understand the mechanism (HOW), we do not have a complete causal explanation. And without a coherent causal account, we have an explanatory gap.
The CCA seeks to bridge that gap by offering a coherent account of HOW the Source operates.

Re "explaining does not diminish":
You said:

"One of the flaws of modern thinking is just because we can explain something makes it less of a miracle."

I agree with this completely.
Explanation does not diminish miracle. It deepens our understanding of it.

• Understanding the physics of light does not diminish the beauty of a sunset.
• Understanding the biology of healing does not diminish the wonder of recovery.
• Understanding the Source's coherence does not diminish the awe of creation.

The CCA does not seek to "explain away" miracles. It seeks to offer a coherent account of how they are possible.

The only exemption from that rule would be atheism. That which can acknowledge the machinery and not the MIND involved with the mechanics. Atheism would be the "flaw of modern thinking" and knowing how something is done only takes away the entertainment value - like knowing how a magician does his illusions.
Or as Nicodemus reportedly said to Jesus "we know that you are a teacher who has come from God, for no one could perform these signs you are doing if God were not with him" - the signs are "performance" because it is not understood how these were done and since we do not understand, then such MUST be from GOD, because we also do not understand how GOD does these things because "GOD is supernatural".
If one follows the supernaturalist logic to its conclusion, God becomes a performer - a magician whose power is measured by the audience's inability to explain what just happened. The miracles are not signs pointing to truth; they are spectacles designed to dazzle, rather than to transform the witnesses own understanding.

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A question for you, Wrangler:
You have said that a supernatural cause is not beyond understanding and evidence.


What evidence do you have for a supernatural cause?
Is it historical evidence (texts, testimonies)?
Is it experiential evidence (personal experience)?
Is it philosophical evidence (logical arguments)?

If you have evidence for a supernatural cause, how do you distinguish it from a natural cause?
What is the test?
What makes one explanation "supernatural" and another "natural"?

_____________

The CCA does not deny that we can know the WHAT, WHEN, and WHY of miraculous events. It questions whether we can have a coherent causal account (HOW) without a physical mechanism.
If you can provide a coherent account of HOW a supernatural cause produces physical effects - without resorting to mystery or lawlessness I would be genuinely interested to hear it.
If you cannot, then the CCA's account (a physical Source with mastery over physical reality) remains the most coherent explanation available.
In Love,
Eternal Entity

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[Eternal Entity]

To expand on my last post.
If we take the creation of our universe as a miracle (from our ignorant human perspective) because we do not understand the mechanism involved, what do we have?
If the universe is a miracle because we don't understand the mechanism, then:

The miracle is defined by human ignorance, not by the nature of reality.
If we did understand the mechanism, it would cease to be a miracle - which means miracles are not objective; they are subjective.
The more we learn, the fewer miracles there are.
Ultimately, the only thing that makes something "supernatural" is our lack of knowledge.
We can ask ourselves "what" "when" and "why" and indeed did that very thing. We KNOW in our modern thinking that the "what" is something which isn't a complete finished thing - but a Work in Progress.
This means that it was created to be that - to function as an unfinished thing...
We have worked out "when" this unfinished thing first began.
We have yet to work out "why" or "how".

That means the WHY and the HOW are not necessary hidden secrets never to be revealed to those experiencing the human state within it.
Rather, they are invitations to participate in the unfolding of the Source's expression.

Why would a creator create such a universe and place conscious awareness into it?

And ...How was this achieved?

If all that supernaturalism can offer is a perpetual occult (hidden) God, is it because said God demands to be hidden, or is it because humanity prefers it that way?

IF:
God demands to be hidden
THEN:
This means God is a performer who values ignorance over relationship, spectacle over participation, and fear over understanding. This is not love; it is control.

IF:
Humanity prefers it that way
THEN:
This means which means we have chosen ignorance because it is comfortable, entertaining, and it absolves us (at least in our ignorance) of responsibility, because it allows us to be passive spectators rather than active participants in the unfolding of reality.

The CCA offers a third way:

The Source does not hide. It expresses.
The universe is not a secret to be kept. It is a formation to be explored.
The WHY and HOW are not forbidden knowledge. They are invitations to participate.
The Source is not a performer. It is the ground of your own awareness.

 

[Stumpmaster]

Stumpmaster, thank you for your response.

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On the grammatical vs. poetic distinction:
You are saying that:

Grammatically, Creation Causality is not conscious – it is a cause, not a person.
Poetically, Creation Causality appears conscious – as in Romans 8:22, where creation "groans" and "travails."
This is a meaningful distinction. The CCA would agree that the Source is not "creation" in the sense of the formed universe. The Source is the ground of creation.
But the CCA would also say: the Source is conscious – not merely poetically, but actually.

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On Romans 8:22:
You cited:

The CCA would interpret this as:
Creation is not a dead, mechanical system.
Creation is an expression of the Source.
The Source is conscious, and creation reflects that consciousness.
The "groaning" is the Source expressing through formation - including through the process of transformation and renewal.

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On Job 38:
You cited Job 38, where God questions Job:

This is a powerful passage. It emphasizes that God is the Creator and that human understanding is limited.
The CCA would agree:
The Source is the ground of all reality.
Human understanding is limited.
We cannot fully comprehend the Source.

But the CCA would also say:
The Source is not incomprehensible in principle.
The Source is coherent, lawful, and understandable - even if we do not yet fully understand it.
The Source invites investigation, not blind submission.

A question for you:
You have distinguished between grammatical and poetic consciousness.
Now I would like to ask you:
Is God conscious - actually, not just poetically?
If yes, then God is conscious, and the CCA's Source (conscious, physical, coherent) is a description of God.
If no, then God is not conscious - and you must explain how an unconscious God can be the ground of conscious beings.



The CCA does not claim to have all the answers. It claims to offer a coherent framework for understanding reality - including the reality of God/Source.
If you have a critique of the CCA, I welcome it.
If you are open to the possibility that the CCA offers a coherent description of God, I invite you to consider it further.
In Love,

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I've been skirting the strawman arguments. It is obvious from Creation that it is the work of a conscious mind, albeit one which is infinite and eternal and beyond human comprehension. The living, active Word of God is demonstrated both during the six days of Creation and throughout history into the present, and the Book of Revelation points to its efficacy in the future also.

Nature originates from God’s direct creative act​

The Bible’s foundational claim is that nature is not eternal and did not arise from chaos, chance, or self‑generation. It begins because God wills it.

• Genesis 1:1 — “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” This is the Bible’s thesis statement: everything natural has a supernatural origin.
• Creation happens by God’s speech: “And God said… and it was so.” Nature is not self-caused; it is spoken into being.
• The repeated phrase “according to their kinds” shows order, boundaries, and intentionality, not randomness.

 

[Wrangler]

A question for you, Wrangler:
You have said that a supernatural cause is not beyond understanding and evidence.


What evidence do you have for a supernatural cause?
Is it historical evidence (texts, testimonies)?
Is it experiential evidence (personal experience)?
Is it philosophical evidence (logical arguments)?

If you have evidence for a supernatural cause, how do you distinguish it from a natural cause?
What is the test?
What makes one explanation "supernatural" and another "natural"?

1. Existence
2. Life
3. The resurrection of Jesus Christ
4. Billions of testimonies and witnesses to the transforming power of God in their lives - including mine.

And in front of the whole world, the miracle of Trump turning his head to avoid the bullet finding its mark.

 

[Eternal Entity]

I've been skirting the strawman arguments.

WHat do you think these are re the CCA?

It is obvious from Creation that it is the work of a conscious mind,

We agree.

albeit one which is infinite and eternal and beyond human comprehension.

Even so - potentially understandable rather than perpetually hidden.

The living, active Word of God

We likely disagree on what that is. My understanding of it is recorded in this thread

is demonstrated both during the six days of Creation and throughout history into the present, and the Book of Revelation points to its efficacy in the future also.

Rather, it is poetically stated - in reality it is displayed in the actuality - presented in the creation itself rather than in words of poetic utterence.

Nature originates from God’s direct creative act​

The Bible’s foundational claim is that nature is not eternal and did not arise from chaos, chance, or self‑generation. It begins because God wills it.

• Genesis 1:1 — “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” This is the Bible’s thesis statement: everything natural has a supernatural origin.
• Creation happens by God’s speech: “And God said… and it was so.” Nature is not self-caused; it is spoken into being.
• The repeated phrase “according to their kinds” shows order, boundaries, and intentionality, not randomness.

None of which grants us the right to assume supernaturalism.

If creation is the work of a conscious mind, and if that mind is coherent and potentially understandable, then why do we need to call it 'supernatural'? Why not simply call it what it is: the Source - conscious, coherent, and the ground of all reality?

Do supernaturalists simply think in such terms because it acts as a confession to ignorance rather than a doorway into fuller knowledge?

 

[Eternal Entity]

1. Existence
2. Life
3. The resurrection of Jesus Christ
4. Billions of testimonies and witnesses to the transforming power of God in their lives - including mine.

And in front of the whole world, the miracle of Trump turning his head to avoid the bullet finding its mark.

How are these any more vital when presented under a supernaturalist banner?
For example, one can explain the Trump incident as directed by conscious interaction without having to delegate consciousness as being "supernatural".
One can also interpret the action as Trump getting a clip around the ear - perhaps a message for him to humble himself.
A perfect miss = a perfect shot.

Why should we believe that creative acts on such scale have to be the work of a supernatural deity rather than a creator -entity who is able to carry out such actions naturally?

It only requires a coherent, conscious Source capable of acting within reality without violating it.

The Trump incident can be explained as directed conscious interaction - no supernatural label needed. It could also be interpreted as a message, not a magic trick. A "perfect miss" is a "perfect shot" - intentional, not accidental.
The resurrection does not require lawlessness; it requires a Source with mastery over physical reality.
Testimonies tell us that people have had experiences - they do not tell us that those experiences were supernatural rather than natural.
Existence and life point to a Source - but why necessarily a supernatural one?

That last question appears to be one which supernaturalists cannot answer.

 

[Stumpmaster]

None of which grants us the right to assume supernaturalism.

You are joking. Who talks like this?

I detect a fallacy of arbitration.

Invoking an arbiter who has no jurisdiction over an issue cannot resolve it.

 

[Eternal Entity]

You are joking. Who talks like this?

I detect a fallacy of arbitration.

Invoking an arbiter who has no jurisdiction over an issue cannot resolve it.

I am not joking, and I am not invoking an arbiter.
I am asking a direct question:
Why does a conscious, coherent Source need to be called "supernatural"?
If you have an answer, I would like to hear it.
If you believe I have committed a fallacy, please identify it clearly:

If you have a substantive critique of the CCA, I welcome it.
If not, I will take this as a dismissal - and continue the discussion with any who are willing to engage substantively.

In Love.

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