Who is Paul discussing in 2 Thessalonians 2?

[Earburner]

So, you admit your question was stupid. That's a start. Now, you need to admit that YOUR interpretations of Revelation 6:9-11 and Revelation 7:1-8 are stupid.


You are not understanding that the 144,00 is a symbolic representation of Spiritual Israel. John was told the numbers and the names of the tribes, but then he looked and saw a number of people that no one could count from all nations. That's who the 144,000 symbolically represent. All of the uncountable believers from all nations in the Spiritual Israel.


How do you figure that the fifth seal timing was when Jesus died? What do you say is the timing of the first 4 seals? When was the 6th seal timing? When do you think was the 7th seal timing? Do you not see the seals, trumpets and vials as being parallel to each other? You seem to have an understanding of the book of Revelation all or yourself. Do you think God reveals things only to you? If so, you are part of an exclusive delusional group on this forum who thinks that about themselves as well.

I admit no such thing. It is you that is hanging on to parts and remnants of church-ianity's "stupid" teaching about the 144,000 being of the NC.

It's sad that you want to keep using the word "stupid" in our discussion. I don't mind using it right back!
I am not here to contend with you or anyone, but rather only to share. If you can't do that, then I can move on.

In the written words of Revelation, the seals etc. can be consecutive in order of numbering, but the events, according to how God gave them to Jesus, do not necessarily have to be chronological with the numbers.

These things you know:
1 Corinthians 1:27
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

1 Cor. 2:10
But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

1 Peter 2:6
Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It's sad that you want to keep using the word "stupid" in our discussion. I don't mind using it right back!

I could have used a lot worse word to describe you telling me: "Unknowling, you are inadvertently blending "religious" conspiracy theories with the truth here.".

You think it's acceptable to accuse me of accepting conspiracy theories? That was very offensive, so I think calling that "stupid" was very tame compared to what I could have called it.

I am not here to contend with you or anyone, but rather only to share. If you can't do that, then I can move on.

That's what I would like to do as well. Free from any accusations of accepting conspiracy theories or anything like that. Can you do that?

In the written words of Revelation, the seals etc. can be consecutive in order of numbering, but the events, according to how God gave them to Jesus, do not necessarily have to be chronological with the numbers.

I don't know what you mean by that. They are numbered for a reason. It describes things that happen in the realm of time. This doesn't mean that all the seal events happen, then all the trumpet events, then all the vial events. I believe the seals, trumpets and vials are all parallel to each other. So, my understanding of the fifth seal agrees with my understanding of the fifth trumpet and fifth vial. But, the seals are numbered for a reason. The seal events happen in chronological order in parallel with the numbered trumpets and numbered vials.

 

[ewq1938]

Unknowling, you are inadvertently blending "religious" conspiracy theories with the truth here.
NO ONE of faith, who lived and DIED while under the OC., could enter into paradise/Heavenly Jerusalem, UNTIL they received the Gift of the Holy Spirit.
Rev. 6:9-11 is POINTING to the past fulfilled event of Mat. 27:50-54.

The bible says otherwise such as the two people Christ spoke about. They died and one went to hades and the other went to paradise which is another way to speak of heaven and another was there as well. Even if a parable, it still relays truth about where people go after death whgich was the entire point.

 

[ewq1938]

So, then stop believing stupid things!!
There is only one grouping of the 12 tribes x12,000 = 144K, and they are of the OC., and NOT of the NC.

They couild be of the NC, and that is most likely since they are spoken of in the end times during when the NC is active. They are simply natural branches of Israel that are Christians and follow Christ.

 

[Earburner]

They couild be of the NC, and that is most likely since they are spoken of in the end times during when the NC is active. They are simply natural branches of Israel that are Christians and follow Christ.

You are not following the fact that Rev. 6:9-11 reveals that NO ONE of Israel who ever lived and died in faith, under the altar of the OC, EVER HAD the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit, UNTIL AFTER the mortal death of Jesus Christ. John 7:39.

 

[Earburner]

They couild be of the NC, and that is most likely since they are spoken of in the end times during when the NC is active. They are simply natural branches of Israel that are Christians and follow Christ.

If that is the case, then they who are Israel and are Born again of the Holy Spirit they already have been given a white robe- (1 John 5:13), and are of the "great multitude", which is the harvest of this present Age of God's Grace.

Surely, you do not think that converted Jews to Christ, who are Born again, are required to wait until AFTER their mortal death, to receive the White robe, aka the Holy Spirit???
Please see my post #461 to Spiritual Israelite.

 

[claninja]

?

Would that be a generation according to age, or is it according to a generation, being that of a type of people?

It’s according to majority of English translations translating genea as generation.

It’s according to Strong’s concordance indexing genea as generation.

It’s according to thayers lexicons defining genea in Matthew 24:34 as: “the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34;”

It’s according to the BDAG’s lexicon defining genea in Matthew 24:34 as: “the sum total of those born at the same time, expanded to include all those living at a given time and freq. defined in terms of specific characteristics, generation, contemporaries (Hom. et al.; BGU 1211, 12 [II b.c.] ἕως γενεῶν τριῶν); Jesus looks upon the whole contemp. generation of Israel as a uniform mass confronting him ἡ γ. αὕτη (cp. Gen 7:1; Ps 11:8) Mt 11:16; 12:41f; 23:36; 24:34”

I cant seem to find any lexical sources that index genea in Matthew 24:34 as age or type, beyond contemporaneous, nor can I find any lexical sources that define genea in Matthew 24:34 as age or type of people, beyond contemporaneous

 

[Earburner]

The bible says otherwise such as the two people Christ spoke about. They died and one went to hades and the other went to paradise which is another way to speak of heaven and another was there as well. Even if a parable, it still relays truth about where people go after death whgich was the entire point.

Parables are semi fictious stories, purposely designed to deliver a single truth. In this particular instance, the singular truth had nothing to do with who goes where, but rather who it was that came here.
Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

 

[ewq1938]

You are not following the fact that Rev. 6:9-11 reveals that NO ONE of Israel who ever lived and died in faith, under the altar of the OC, EVER HAD the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit, UNTIL AFTER the mortal death of Jesus Christ. John 7:39.

Rev. 6:9-11 does not say that.

 

[ewq1938]

Parables are semi fictious stories, purposely designed to deliver a single truth. In this particular instance, the singular truth had nothing to do with who goes where, but rather who it was that came here.

No, it was about where good and bad people go after they die.

 

[Earburner]

It’s according to majority of English translations translating genea as generation.

It’s according to Strong’s concordance indexing genea as generation.

It’s according to thayers lexicons defining genea in Matthew 24:34 as: “the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34;”

It’s according to the BDAG’s lexicon defining genea in Matthew 24:34 as: “the sum total of those born at the same time, expanded to include all those living at a given time and freq. defined in terms of specific characteristics, generation, contemporaries (Hom. et al.; BGU 1211, 12 [II b.c.] ἕως γενεῶν τριῶν); Jesus looks upon the whole contemp. generation of Israel as a uniform mass confronting him ἡ γ. αὕτη (cp. Gen 7:1; Ps 11:8) Mt 11:16; 12:41f; 23:36; 24:34”

I cant seem to find any lexical sources that index genea in Matthew 24:34 as age or type, beyond contemporaneous, nor can I find any lexical sources that define genea in Matthew 24:34 as age or type of people, beyond contemporaneous

I agree.

 

[Earburner]

Rev. 6:9-11 does not say that.

The word "altar" is a place of sacrifice. Also, an altar as a structure of itself, can also be a place of Remembrance of an event in time.

In Malachi 3:16-18 there was a book of Remembrance for all of the faithful of OC Israel. Their names were to be recorded there, because at that time there was no other alternative directed by God to remember them. The Holy Spirit was not yet permanently given. John 7:39.
Hence the reason why the repentant thief on the cross said to Jesus: "Remember me...."


Malachi 3:16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.
17 And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

For all whose names of OC Israel, that were recorded in the book of Remembrance, according to Rev. 6:9-11, they ARE NOW recorded in the Book of Life, who is Jesus.

 

[Earburner]

No, it was about where good and bad people go after they die.

That's what church-ianity says. The Holy Spirit teaches Luke 16:31.

 

[ewq1938]

That's what church-ianity says.

No, that's what Christ literally was teaching. Church-ianity teaches something not in the text.

 

[Earburner]

The bible says otherwise such as the two people Christ spoke about. They died and one went to hades and the other went to paradise which is another way to speak of heaven and another was there as well. Even if a parable, it still relays truth about where people go after death whgich was the entire point.

No one was in Heaven/paradise yet, BECAUSE Jesus had not yet died His mortal death. John 7:39.
Since then and up to now, hades/hell is simply nothing but the grave, because all dead mortal bodies must be buried or burned up.
Therefore, the singular truth of the parable of Lazaruth and the rich man, really is Luke 16:31.

These things you also know:
1 Corinthians 1:27
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

1 Cor. 2:10
But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

1 Peter 2:6
Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

 

[ewq1938]

No one was in Heaven/paradise yet, BECAUSE Jesus had not yet died His mortal death.

There were according to Jesus. There's also the 5th seal with ppl in heaven speaking to God.

 

[Earburner]

No, that's what Christ literally was teaching. Church-ianity teaches something not in the text.

Since in your post #474 you purposely cut off the ending verse that I referenced from the parable about Lazaruth & the Rich man, in my post# 473, you are revealing that you would much rather believe the lies of church-ianity, and not the teaching of the Holy Spirit, which are the words of Luke 16:31.
I shall remind you of 1 Cor. 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

 

[Earburner]

There were according to Jesus. There's also the 5th seal with ppl in heaven speaking to God.

In Rev. 6:9-11, the people "under the altar" never had the Holy Spirit. Again, no one can be in heaven without having the Holy Spirit.
Edit: The "altar" here is not for sacrifice, but rather for "Remembrance" (Mal. 3:16-18). God is remembering His faithful "jewels" of those who died in faith while they lived "under" the "altar" of the OC.

I guess "the wisdom of men" in church-ianity still rules your thinking, and not the scriptures by that "which the Holy Spirit teaches". 1 Cor. 2:13
John 7
36 What manner of saying is this that he said, Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come?
37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; BECAUSE that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

 

[ewq1938]

Since in your post #474 you purposely cut off the ending verse that I referenced from the parable about Lazaruth & the Rich man, in my post# 473, you are revealing that you would much rather believe the lies of church-ianity, and not the teaching of the Holy Spirit, which are the words of Luke 16:31.

You have that backwards.

 

[ewq1938]

The people under the altar never had the Holy Spirit.

Prove that.