The Two Witnesses Came and Went Thousands of Years Ago
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Did you just completely ignore everything he showed you?
Hebrews 11:13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth.
All these people included all the people previously mentioned people, which included Enoch. Verse 13 says they all died. Verse 5 does not say he never died. He was just taken away at that time so that he would not die at that time. He later died, as verse 13 indicates.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Yeah, and other parts of Revelation clearly show a literal seven headed, ten horned beast making war with the saints, too. Because that's what it says.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Goodness gracious. What a blatant case of twisting scripture just to support a false doctrine. Unbelievable. No, the author of Hebrews was not as stupid and disingenuous as you apparently think he was.
Hebrews 11:13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth.
He didn't say "most of these people". He said "all these people". And those people included Enoch. You are the one forcing scripture to contradict itself. Enoch could not have possibly gone to heaven because Jesus said this long after what happened to Enoch...
John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[a]
Enoch could not have been taken to the third heaven/paradise where Jesus is. So, if he didn't die, then where did he go?
IMO:
Generally speaking, everyone dies. Enoch and Elijah will die, but it has been deferred to a future time, see Revelation 11:3-13.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
While referring to Enoch and everyone else of faith previously mentioned the author of Hebrews said this.
Hebrews 11:13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth.
Can you address this?
IMO:
This is apocalyptic literature. It is coded so that "the wise will understand" (Daniel 12:10).
In the example you cite, "seven heads" are seven nations that were to arise and provide order in the Middle East. These are:
1. Egypt
2. Assyria
3. Babylon
4. Persia
5. Greece
6. Rome
7. "Revived Roman empire," headed by Anti-Christ.
The Messiah came during the Roman empire, but the powers that be killed him. That was the worst thing they could have done (1Corinthians 2:8).
Anti-Christ is a future charismatic leader who will broker a peace agreement between Israel and the other Middle-Eastern countries. He will oversee rebuilding the Jewish temple.
The Jews will be ecstatic, until he then takes his seat in the temple, professing himself to be God (2Thessalonians 2:4). Oops, what a revolting development!
Anti-Christ will also be assisted by the "beast who ascends from the abyss" (Revelation 17:8). This beast is described in Revelation 13:1-9, apparently a fallen angel.
"Ten horns" IMO are ten rulers in the end times, presumably ten Middle-Eastern non-Christian countries.
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
I didn't ask for your interpretation of the beast, I was making a point of how silly you're being by acting like we should assume that the two witnesses are two individuals.
Spiritual Israelite noted:
< silly...like we should assume>
That's me, silly Billy!
I began with IMO = "in my opinion." I said nothing about how anyone else should interpret.
There are various opinions on how to interpret Bible prophecy; four main approaches are:
o. Idealist--it's a story, not to be taken literally.
o. Historicist--it's the history of the human race.
o. Preterist--it's the history of the Catholic church
o. Futurist--Revelation chapters 4-22 apply mostly to a time future to today
My understanding is futurist.
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Marty fox noted:
<to die once>
Enoch and Elijah will both die once, as noted in Revelation 11:7.
Hebrews 11:13
All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth.
They had to die from their mortal bodies to enter heaven
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
You and I have shown him that verse several times before and he is not even honest enough to address it. Any honest person can see that Enoch was one of "these people" who "died", but this guy can't even acknowledge that. We have many people on this forum who are not interested in objectively and honestly searching for the truth in scripture. They just believe whatever they want to believe. It's truly unbelievable.
"By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he *did not experience death.* " (Hebrews 11:5)
"As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire with horses appeared and separated the two of them, and *Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlpool.*" (2Kings 2:11, no death)
Look, look, it's in the Book, two prophets in heaven who *never died!*
But they will (Revelation 11:3-7).
Death was never part of the plan, rather the plan was eternal life. But eternal life in a fallen world is unthinkable, hence the average age of death has been slowly lowered, Adam= 930 years, now currently 70-80 years on average.
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And so is
Hebrews 11:13
All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth.
8 verses later and Enoch was one of the "All these people"
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Agree. That verse couldn't be more clear. This is truly mind boggling as to why he is just completely ignoring that verse and what it indicates about every person of faith previously mentioned, which included Enoch. This is cherry picking at its worst. This is how cults interpret scripture. They draw conclusions from one verse without looking at the context of the verse and without caring whether their interpretation contradicts other verses or not. Hebrews 11:5 does NOT say Enoch never died. But, Hebrews 11:13 does. That means he died. Very simple.
He also ignores John 3:13 where Jesus said that no one but Him had ever ascended to heaven. He was talking about the third heaven/paradise where He resides. So, Enoch could not possibly have ascended to the third heaven/paradise. It had to have been the first heaven (the sky) and he must have been brought back down to the earth and later died, according to Hebrews 11:13.
Marty fox suggested:
o They had to die from their mortal bodies to enter heaven.
Generally that would be true. However the Bible says:
o By faith Enoch was *translated up* so that he should *not see death*... (Hebrews 11:5)
o And Elijah [still alive] *went up by a whirlwind into heaven.*
(2Kings 2:11)
My impression is that neither Enoch nor Elijah has ever died (yet).
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Why are you being so stubborn and not acknowledging what is indicated in Hebrews 11:13? Maybe you need it spelled out to you.
Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks. 5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. 8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; 10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11 By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she bore a child when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born as many as the stars of the sky in multitude—innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore. 13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
When it says "these all died in faith" in Hebrews 11:13, it's talking about all of the previously mentioned people who had faith. That includes, Abel, Enoch, Noah, Noah's household, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Sarah. There are no exceptions given there. So, all of those people, including Enoch, died. Enoch could not possibly have ascended to the third heaven/paradise where Jesus is because Jesus said no one but Him had ever ascended to heaven (John 3:13) long after Enoch was taken and after Elijah was taken up to heaven, which must have been the first heaven (the sky). So, Enoch must have been taken to some other place on earth and Elijah must have been taken up to the first heaven (the sky) and then later came back to earth and died. That has to be the case because Hebrews 11:13 says Enoch and the rest of those who had faith that were previously mentioned all died.
IMO:
The Bible indicates: "By faith Enoch was taken up, so that he should not see death" (Hebrews 11:8). I interpret that to mean that Enoch did not die.
Jesus said, "No one has ascended into heaven..." Enoch did not ascend of his own accord, rather he was taken up before he died. Likewise Jesus was resurrected and ascended into heaven. Similarly the Apostle Paul ascended (2Corinthians 12:2-4).
Jesus came to earth knowing he would die, and I presume Enoch and Elijah (both of whom never died) will return to earth and do the same.
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Spiritual Israelite noted:
<Why are you being so stubborn.>
I take revelation by God's prophets seriously.
<silly you're being...two witnesses are two individuals>
"Witness" typically refers to a person, and the context appears to support two individual prophets.
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
So, how do you interpret Hebrews 11:13 which says that the people of faith, which included Enoch, all died? Hebrews 11:5 does not say that Enoch never died. He was taken up at that time so that he didn't die at that time, but Hebrews 11:13 indicates that he must have died later. Why are you not willing to accept what Hebrews 11:13 indicates?
Jesus did not say that no one but Him ascended to heaven, He said no one but Him ascended to heaven, period. Why do you keep twisting the text of these verses to make them say what you want them to say?
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