Both Pretribbers and Preterists are clearly wrong that great tribulation begins with the DOTL.

[Truth7t7]

Your post either ignores or redefines the Millenial Kingdom.
And therefore is incorrect.

Revelation 20:1-6 Isnt A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Dont Be Deceived​

Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[Truth7t7]

Your post either ignores or redefines the Millenial Kingdom.
And therefore is incorrect.

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

BLASPHEMOUS? Big LOL!

HUGE LOL at you for not understanding why I said that. Your lack of discernment about this is truly unbelievable.

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

You apply this entirely to the future. LOL! How can you not understand that Jesus already accomplished all of those things long ago? Do you deny that He already has made reconciliation for iniquity, finished the transgression and made an end of sins? Have you never read the NT scriptures that say His death and shed blood made reconciliation for people's sins (Hebrews 2:17) and that He came to "take away the sins of the world" (John 1:29) and that He said "It is finished" when He died? What do you think He meant when He said "It is finished"?

Daniel's 70 weeks are literal 7 day periods, or 490 literal future days, If Daniel meant 490 years he would have written (Four Hundred Ninety Years) He Didn't, Daniel had no restrictions in "Writing" exact numerology as has been shown

LOL. How in the world do you not interpret Revelation 20 literally when you interpret almost everything else in the Bible literally? You are a true mystery.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

"Daniel's AOD Is Future" and the bad guy causing the Abomination and Desolation will be present on earth to the "Consummation" The Ultimate End

"Future" Events Unfulfilled

Matthew 24:15KJV
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

This "Future" evil figure (The Beast) will be present on earth making (Abomination & Desolation) to the (Consummation) or (The Ultimate End) "Future" Event(s) Unfulfilled

(The Future Consummation)

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation

1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signature specifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end

Daniel's AOD (Even Until The Consummation) "Future" (The End)

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

How about actually answering my questions instead of trying to divert attention away from them? I'll try again.

How will things like the reconciliation for iniquity, the end of sins and the finishing of transgression be accomplished in the future when Jesus already accomplished that, and the rest of Daniel 9:24, long ago already?

Hebrews 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

 

[Truth7t7]

HUGE LOL at you for not understanding why I said that. Your lack of discernment about this is truly unbelievable.

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

You apply this entirely to the future. LOL! How can you not understand that Jesus already accomplished all of those things long ago? Do you deny that He already has made reconciliation for iniquity, finished the transgression and made an end of sins? Have you never read the NT scriptures that say His death and shed blood made reconciliation for people's sins (Hebrews 2:17) and that He came to "take away the sins of the world" (John 1:29) and that He said "It is finished" when He died? What do you think He meant when He said "It is finished"?


LOL. How in the world do you not interpret Revelation 20 literally when you interpret almost everything else in the Bible literally? You are a true mystery.

"Future" Unfulfilled

Daniel 12:1-7KJV
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.
6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

"Future" Unfulfilled

Revelation 10:1-7KJV
1 And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:
2 And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth,
3 And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.
4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.
5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

 

[JimKnox]

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Clearly you are confused and prideful.
Rev 20 is ALL ABOUT THE LITERAL, VISIBLE PHYSICAL MILLENIAL KINGDOM OF CHRIST.
All of your Scripture taken out of context will not change the plain sense of Rev 20.
The Millenial Kingdom is literal, physical and visible.
Period.
Anyone trying to redefine or ELIMINATE this fact like you, are not of God.

 

[Truth7t7]

How will things like the reconciliation for iniquity, the end of sins and the finishing of transgression be accomplished in the future when Jesus already accomplished that, and the rest of Daniel 9:24, long ago already?

I dont deny that Jesus was fulfillment of the afore mentioned as it pertains to the world, however Daniel 9:24 is speaking to a future specific people and place upon this earth

I believe the verse pertains to the "Remnant Elect Jew" who will receive Jesus in the "future", you will closely note that the event is upon "Thy People" and upon "Thy Holy City" Jerusalem, their sins, transgression, reconciliation, and everlasting righteousness, will take place in the "Future" when the "Remnant Elect Jews" receive Jesus and are added to the Church

The Remnant Elect Jew = (Thy People) Jerusalem = (Thy Holy City) Seen In Daniel 9:24 below

Daniel 9:24KJV
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Please explain how the 70th week seen below will see Daniel's AOD taking place Matthew 24:15, and the bad guy causing this abomination and desolations in the 70th week will be present on this earth until the very (End) or (Consummation)?

Future Unfullfilled

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(Future), The Blindness Will Be Removed From The (Remnant Elect Jew) When The (Future) Fulness Of The Gentiles Takes Place, When Armies Surround And Trample Jerusalem Under Foot (Future Unfulfilled)

The Remnant Elect Jew, Thy People

Romans 11:1-7KJV
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Future Event Unfulfilled

Romans 11:25-26KJV
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

 

[Truth7t7]

Clearly you are confused and prideful.
Rev 20 is ALL ABOUT THE LITERAL, VISIBLE PHYSICAL MILLENIAL KINGDOM OF CHRIST.
All of your Scripture taken out of context will not change the plain sense of Rev 20.
The Millenial Kingdom is literal, physical and visible.
Period.
Anyone trying to redefine or ELIMINATE this fact like you, are not of God.

A Millennial Kingdom on this earth is a man made fairy tale found no place in scripture

Revelation 20:1-6 doesn't show a literal, visible, kingdom on this earth nowhere

Revelation 20:1-6 Isnt A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Dont Be Deceived​

Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[JimKnox]

A Millennial Kingdom on this earth is a man made fairy tale found no place in scripture

Revelation 20:1-6 doesn't show a literal, visible, kingdom on this earth nowhere

Revelation 20:1-6 Isnt A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Dont Be Deceived​

Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Your denial does not make you right.
Repent of your lies.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I dont deny that Jesus was fulfillment of the afore mentioned as it pertains to the world, however Daniel 9:24 is speaking to a future specific people and place upon this earth

I believe the verse pertains to the "Remnant Elect Jew" who will receive Jesus in the "future", you will closely note that the event is upon "Thy People" and upon "Thy Holy City" Jerusalem, their sins, transgression, reconciliation, and everlasting righteousness, will take place in the "Future" when the "Remnant Elect Jews" receive Jesus and are added to the Church

Ridiculous! Daniel 9:24 is all about Jesus and what He has already done! It is fulfilled! It's not just talking about reconciliation for an elect remnant of Jews for a certain time period. His sacrifice long ago was "once for all", meaning once for all time (Hebrews 10:10).

Hebrews 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Is this saying that He made reconciliation for sins for certain people at a certain time? No. Scripture never teaches that. It's talking about the fact that He made reconciliation for the sins of all people of all time, including any Jews who are saved in the future. That is what Daniel 9:24 is talking about in relation to the Jews. And, of course, He also made reconciliation for the sins of Gentiles, but Daniel 9:24 is talking about how He made reconciliation for the sins of the Jews "once for all" (all time).

The Remnant Elect Jew = (Thy People) Jerusalem = (Thy Holy City) Seen In Daniel 9:24 below

Daniel 9:24KJV
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Please explain how the 70th week seen below will see Daniel's AOD taking place Matthew 24:15, and the bad guy causing this abomination and desolations in the 70th week will be present on this earth until the very (End) or (Consummation)?

Future Unfullfilled

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(Future), The Blindness Will Be Removed From The (Remnant Elect Jew) When The (Future) Fulness Of The Gentiles Takes Place, When Armies Surround And Trample Jerusalem Under Foot (Future Unfulfilled)

At the time the book of Daniel was written, the second temple had not yet been rebuilt, so it's clearly talking about the rebuilding of Jerusalem and the building the second temple in Daniel 9:25 when it talks about the rebuilding of Jerusalem. So, the destruction of the city and the sanctuary that Daniel prophesied in Daniel 9:26 was in relation to the destruction of the second temple, which happened in 70 AD. So, Daniel 9:27 is talking about the city and the sanctuary (second temple) being made desolate. You are taking the prophecy completely out of context.

The Remnant Elect Jew, Thy People

Romans 11:1-7KJV
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

This is talking about the remnant of believers of Paul's time which includes Paul himself! You are trying to apply this to a future remnant? Why do you not pay attention to context?

Future Event Unfulfilled

Romans 11:25-26KJV
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

The all Israel that shall be saved is the same Israel that is saved now and will continue to be saved until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. And that is the spiritual Israel of God. Why are you not a dispensationalist when most of your beliefs line up with dispensationalism? You have a very strange mix of beliefs all to yourself. You're just another of several lone wolves on this forum who thinks that you alone have the correct understanding of scripture.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Clearly you are confused and prideful.
Rev 20 is ALL ABOUT THE LITERAL, VISIBLE PHYSICAL MILLENIAL KINGDOM OF CHRIST.
All of your Scripture taken out of context will not change the plain sense of Rev 20.
The Millenial Kingdom is literal, physical and visible.
Period.
Anyone trying to redefine or ELIMINATE this fact like you, are not of God.

Can you tell me how you interpret the following passages...

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

 

[grafted branch]

Rev 20 is ALL ABOUT THE LITERAL, VISIBLE PHYSICAL MILLENIAL KINGDOM OF CHRIST.
All of your Scripture taken out of context will not change the plain sense of Rev 20.
The Millenial Kingdom is literal, physical and visible.
Period.

I’m just curious, in your future millennial kingdom, will people be adding to the Bible? Every time Jesus speaks it would be the word of God, so if anyone holds a future literal millennial kingdom position it would seem they also should hold the position that the Bible isn’t complete yet.

Do you think the Bible is complete or can we add to it?

 

[Truth7t7]

Ridiculous! Daniel 9:24 is all about Jesus and what He has already done! It is fulfilled! It's not just talking about reconciliation for an elect remnant of Jews for a certain time period. His sacrifice long ago was "once for all", meaning once for all time (Hebrews 10:10).

Daniel 9:24 is speaking of a specific people (Thy People) and a specific place on earth (Thy Holy City) Jerusalem, it's doing nothing more than showing how the (Remnant Elect Jew) will be saved in the "Future", Romans 11:25-26

The Remnant Elect Jew = (Thy People) Jerusalem = (Thy Holy City) Seen In Daniel 9:24 below

Daniel 9:24KJV
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Hebrews 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Is this saying that He made reconciliation for sins for certain people at a certain time? No. Scripture never teaches that. It's talking about the fact that He made reconciliation for the sins of all people of all time, including any Jews who are saved in the future. That is what Daniel 9:24 is talking about in relation to the Jews. And, of course, He also made reconciliation for the sins of Gentiles, but Daniel 9:24 is talking about how He made reconciliation for the sins of the Jews "once for all" (all time).

Diversion Alert: Hebrews 2:17 isn't the subject, Daniel 9:24-27 is

So, the destruction of the city and the sanctuary that Daniel prophesied in Daniel 9:26 was in relation to the destruction of the second temple, which happened in 70 AD. So, Daniel 9:27 is talking about the city and the sanctuary (second temple) being made desolate. You are taking the prophecy completely out of context.

Your preterist 70AD claim of fulfillment is 100% false , Daniel 9:27 is specifically talking about the bad guy making "FUTURE" abomination and desolation, all the way up to the very (End/Consummation) a future event unfulfilled, and you aren't going to change the very clear scripture before your eyes

(EVEN UNTIL THE CONSUMMATION)

"Daniel's AOD Is Future" and the bad guy causing the Abomination and Desolation will be present on earth to the "Consummation" The Ultimate End

"Future" Events Unfulfilled

Matthew 24:15KJV
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

This "Future" evil figure (The Beast) will be present on earth making (Abomination & Desolation) to the (Consummation) or (The Ultimate End) "Future" Event(s) Unfulfilled

(The Future Consummation)

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation

1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signature specifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end

Daniel's AOD (Even Until The Consummation) "Future" (The End)

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

This is talking about the remnant of believers of Paul's time which includes Paul himself! You are trying to apply this to a future remnant? Why do you not pay attention to context?

It's speaking to Paul's present/future time, the blindness of the "Future" Remnant Jew will be removed when the "Future" fulness of the gentiles takes place in Jerusalem for 42 months, and it didnt take place in 70AD

Romans 11:25-26KJV
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Revelation 11:2KJV
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months

The all Israel that shall be saved is the same Israel that is saved now and will continue to be saved until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. And that is the spiritual Israel of God. Why are you not a dispensationalist when most of your beliefs line up with dispensationalism? You have a very strange mix of beliefs all to yourself. You're just another of several lone wolves on this forum who thinks that you alone have the correct understanding of scripture.

Hey we agree, the fulness of the gentiles is a "Future" event unfulfilled, at this time the "Future" Remnant Jew will have their blinders removed and receive Jesus and be added to the Church on earth, "Yes" the Church on earth is the Israel of God

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Daniel 9:24 is speaking of a specific people (Thy People) and a specific place on earth (Thy Holy City) Jerusalem, it's doing nothing more than showing how the Remnant Elect Jew will be saved in the "Future"

Diversion Alert: Hebrews 2:17 isn't the subject, Daniel 9:24 is

It shows how we should understand Daniel 9:24. It's not a diversion at all. You need to learn how to interpret scripture with scripture.

Hey we agree, the fulness of the gentiles is a future event unfulfilled, at this time the "Future" Remnant Jew will have their blinders removed and receive Jesus and be added to the Church on earth, "Yes" the Church on earth is the Israel of God

Are you not aware that Jews have been having their blinders removed since Paul's day? Why do you apply that only to the future? Read the following. This is Paul talking about those Israelites who were blinded in his time.

Romans 11:11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring! 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

Paul indicated that the Israelites of his time who were blinded were not blinded permanently. He said the purpose of their blinding was so that salvation would go to the Gentiles, which, in turn, would make those blinded Israelites jealous and want to be saved as well. And then notice in verse 14 how Paul said he hoped to help lead some of those who were blinded in his time to salvation. So, Paul is not talking about only future things in Romans 11, but rather ongoing realities up until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in when Jesus returns. Since Paul's day, unbelieving, blinded Israelites have been getting saved and have been grafted into the cultivated olive tree along with Gentile believers (Romans 11:15-24).

 

[claninja]

DOTL = day of the Lord.


Both Pretribbers and Preterists, and anyone else doing what they are wrongly doing, need to start paying closer attention to details and quit twisting the texts involved in order to get the DOTL to fit where it doesn't remotely fit. The DOTL does not fit at the beginning of great tribulation. It fits after great tribulation proved by all of the following. And there is even more passages than the following that proves it except I'm not going to list every single passage that might prove it.

Amos 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.
19 As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him.
20 Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

What I have underlined in verse 29 also depicts darkness, and that we are told the time of this darkness does not precede the beginning of great tribulation, it immediately follows great tribulation.

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

What I have underlined in verse 12 and 13 also depicts darkness, and is obviously referring to the same time period and events Matthew 24:29 is.

Isaiah 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

The DOTL involves both wrath and fierce anger.

Revelation 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


And so does this involve wrath. And that you can't have wrath without fierce anger. The text indicates that the great day of his wrath is come, and not, His great day of wrath already came earlier before the time of the 6th seal. That is a contradiction if it is not until the time of the 6th seal that His great day of wrath has initially come.



Something else I would like to point out. The first trumpet is not meaning chronologically sometime later following the events recorded in the 6th seal. It is not logical that the first trumpet can follow after the 6th seal since the 5th seal must precede the 6th seal, and that the 5th seal, for example, meaning this---a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled(Revelation 6:11)---is involving the time of the 6th trumpet(Revelation 11:2,7, Revelation 13:5,7,15)

And that Revelation 6:17 is involving the era of time and events that Revelation 11:15,18 is involving.

Therefore, How can trumpet 1 follow the 5th and 6th seal when the 5th seal is involving the 6th trumpet, and that the 6th seal is involving the 7th trumpet? Since when does the number 6 and number 7 precede the number 1 rather than follows it?

IOW, trumpet 1 comes before trumpet 6 and 7. Seriously, who could be that bad at math where they have 6 and 7 meaning before 1 rather than after 1? Nobody, right? Once again, the fact the 6th trumpet involves the 5th seal, the 7th trumpet involves the 6th seal, clearly tells any objective person not placing their doctrinal bias' above that of common sense, that this means that the first trumpet can't be meaning after the 5th and 6th seal in that case, since it causes a mathematical impossibility with the 7 trumpets if trumpet 6 and 7 correlate with seal 5 and 6.

The argument seems to be TDOL occurs after or at the cosmic signs (Amos, revelation 6, and especially Matthew 24:29 - immediately after the tribulation, the sun will go dark, etc…), therefore, the beginning of the great tribulation cannot be a part of the day of the Lord, since the cosmic signs occur after the day of the Lord. So your argument here against preterism is that Matthew has strict linear chronology and therefore needs to be interpreted in strict linear chronology.

However, you also argue that the trumpets in revelation are parallel to the seals, DESPITE, that within the narrative of revelation, the angels are given the trumpets when the seventh seal is opened. So your argument here is that despite the narrative of revelation putting them in a strict linear chronology (seals them at 7th seal angels are given trumpets) you can interpret them as parallel instead of linear.

So my question is, why can you interpret the trumpets as parallel to the seals, but the preterist cannot interpret the cosmic signs as parallel to the tribulation?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The argument seems to be TDOL occurs after or at the cosmic signs (Amos, revelation 6, and especially Matthew 24:29 - immediately after the tribulation, the sun will go dark, etc…), therefore, the beginning of the great tribulation cannot be a part of the day of the Lord, since the cosmic signs occur after the day of the Lord. So your argument here against preterism is that Matthew has strict linear chronology and therefore needs to be interpreted in strict linear chronology.

However, you also argue that the trumpets in revelation are parallel to the seals, DESPITE, that within the narrative of revelation, the angels are given the trumpets when the seventh seal is opened. So your argument here is that despite the narrative of revelation putting them in a strict linear chronology (seals them at 7th seal angels are given trumpets) you can interpret them as parallel instead of linear.

So my question is, why can you interpret the trumpets as parallel to the seals, but the preterist cannot interpret the cosmic signs as parallel to the tribulation?

Help me to understand what you're trying to say here. Are you saying that you believe what is described in Matthew 24:29 in relation to the sun, moon and stars is equivalent to what is described in Matthew 24:15-21? Isn't it your view that "the tribulation of those days" refers to what is described in Matthew 24:15-21? If so, Jesus said the signs in the sun, moon and stars occur AFTER the tribulation of those days, not as being the tribulation of those days itself. So, I'm not understanding why you would say that the cosmic signs and "the tribulation of those days" (assuming you believe the tribulation of those days describes the great tribulation of Matthew 24:15-21) are parallel.

 

[PinSeeker]

You blatantly misrepresent what I believe even after I explicitly explain what I believe.

No, I acknowledge word for word what you said, so your stated belief(s), thereby acknowledging perfectly what you do believe ~ because you stated it yourself, verbatim. And then I explicitly acknowledge what you don't believe by saying it is only an unintended but unavoidable implication of what you said. So I "misrepresent" absolutely nothing.

So here it is in terms of logic:

A —> a(1) and a(2)

• A is your stated belief (you believe this)
• a(1) and a(2) are the unintended but unavoidable implications of A

You believe A, but you don't believe a(1) or a(2). Fully understood and acknowledged, for at least the third or fourth time now. But again, logically, one cannot believe one side of the arrow and not the other, and that's the problem. If one believes A ~ as you do ~ and does not believe a(1) and/or a(2) ~ and I am fully aware and acknowledging of the fact that you don’t ~ then there is a disconnect, a contradiction in his thinking. Such is the case with you, and that has been my point. But again, I have "misrepresented" absolutely nothing. You may disagree with what I say are the implications of what you have said, but that, too, would be... well, ignorant.

Because you are not an honest person.

You cannot present me with anything I have said along the lines of believing something that you do not believe. Nothing. You have nothing.

You have a very serious problem with dishonesty.

I certainly do have a problem with dishonest people. Yes. Yes I do. <smile>

You know that you do think I'm stupid in a way and I think the same of you.

I don't think you're stupid. And I really don't even think you're ignorant. And what you think of me might say, or probably actually does say, more about you than it does me.

Why not just be honest about it instead of saying "buuuuut..."?

<eye roll> You got nothin.' <smile>

What you're really saying is "Out of a desire for my post to not get deleted for going over the line, I'm not going to explicitly say that you're stupid, buuuuut I do believe that you are stupid".

Um, no, and no... <smile>

Grace and peace.

 

[JimKnox]

Can you tell me how you interpret the following passages...

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

What is there to 'interpret' ?
It is plain English.
Which part are you having trouble with?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, I acknowledge word for word what you said, so your stated belief(s), thereby acknowledging perfectly what you do believe ~ because you stated it yourself, verbatim. And then I explicitly acknowledge what you don't believe by saying it is only an unintended but unavoidable implication of what you said. So I "misrepresent" absolutely nothing.

So here it is in terms of logic:

A —> a(1) and a(2)

• A is your stated belief (you believe this)
• a(1) and a(2) are the unintended but unavoidable implications of A

You believe A, but you don't believe a(1) or a(2). Fully understood and acknowledged, for at least the third or fourth time now. But again, logically, one cannot believe one side of the arrow and not the other, and that's the problem. If one believes A ~ as you do ~ and does not believe a(1) and/or a(2) ~ and I am fully aware and acknowledging of the fact that you don’t ~ then there is a disconnect, a contradiction in his thinking. Such is the case with you, and that has been my point. But again, I have "misrepresented" absolutely nothing. You may disagree with what I say are the implications of what you have said, but that, too, would be... well, ignorant.


You cannot present me with anything I have said along the lines of believing something that you do not believe. Nothing. You have nothing.


I certainly do have a problem with dishonest people. Yes. Yes I do. <smile>


I don't think you're stupid. And I really don't even think you're ignorant. And what you think of me might say, or probably actually does say, more about you than it does me.


<eye roll> You got nothin.' <smile>


Um, no, and no... <smile>

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What is there to 'interpret' ?
It is plain English.
Which part are you having trouble with?

Just tell me how you understand those passages. I can't read your mind. Show me how you can reconcile them with your Premillennialist belief. What they clearly indicate is that all unbelievers will be killed when Jesus returns. So, why don't you believe that?