Who is Paul discussing in 2 Thessalonians 2?

[Earburner]

They couild be of the NC, and that is most likely since they are spoken of in the end times during when the NC is active. They are simply natural branches of Israel that are Christians and follow Christ.

No, they cannot be of the NC.
NONE OF THEM had the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit (white robes) until after death, which proves them to be BEFORE Christ came in the flesh.

Ever since Pentecost, the "natural branches" (Jews) are ONLY grafted back into their own tree by BEING Born again of the Holy Spirit, WHILE THEY ARE PHYSICALLY ALIVE and breathing,.... NOT AFTER DEATH!!!! All of such will be of the Great Multitude, which is eveveryone who are NOW SAVED by coming to repentance and having faith in Christ.

 

[Earburner]

Prove that.

Those who were under the altar were the faithful dead of the OC. and had been waiting for "the Promise to come (Jesus)", and were in need of the Holy Spirit (white robe), the Gift of Eternal Life. 1 John 5:13.

Ever since Pentecost, people receive the Holy Spirit while they are still breathing!
No one under the NC receives the Holy Spirit after they die!!
Rev. 6:9-11 are those who were remembered by God in the Book of Remembrance. Mal. 3:16-18.
Again....John 7:39 reveals that the Holy Spirit wasn't permanently given to anyone EVER, UNTIL AFTER Christ's death and Glorification (resurrection).

 

[Earburner]

You have that backwards.

I supposed I messed that up, but I think you know what I was saying.

 

[grafted branch]

Those who were under the altar were the faithful dead of the OC. and had been waiting for "the Promise to come (Jesus)", and were in need of the Holy Spirit (white robe), the Gift of Eternal Life. 1 John 5:13.

I agree, and here’s something else we need to consider.

In Revelation 6:9-11 the souls under the altar ask the question of how long dost thou not judge them that dwell on the earth. The answer is given in vs 11 that they should rest a little season until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that they should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Currently everyone who has read Revelation 6 knows the answer to the question, and since we all have this knowledge (or foreknowledge, depending on when someone thinks this takes place) there is no need to ask this question again, now or in the future, because the answer will not change. Actually asking the Lord this question would show a lack of faith if someone thought a different answer might be possible.

 

[Earburner]

I could have used a lot worse word to describe you telling me: "Unknowling, you are inadvertently blending "religious" conspiracy theories with the truth here.".

You think it's acceptable to accuse me of accepting conspiracy theories? That was very offensive, so I think calling that "stupid" was very tame compared to what I could have called it.


That's what I would like to do as well. Free from any accusations of accepting conspiracy theories or anything like that. Can you do that?


I don't know what you mean by that. They are numbered for a reason. It describes things that happen in the realm of time. This doesn't mean that all the seal events happen, then all the trumpet events, then all the vial events. I believe the seals, trumpets and vials are all parallel to each other. So, my understanding of the fifth seal agrees with my understanding of the fifth trumpet and fifth vial. But, the seals are numbered for a reason. The seal events happen in chronological order in parallel with the numbered trumpets and numbered vials.

I do understand what you are saying. I also do follow Rev. in a similar way. However, in discerning Revelation, earthly time is not operative as how most people think.
For example: In just the Seals alone, I see them as being consecutive in their order of numbering. But, as for the details of each Seal and its description, I see everything all future, right from the birth of Christ upto His Return.
To me, I see the Seals to be like subtitles whereby the events of the Trumpets and the Vials take place under them and among them.

There really is nothing that is strictly chronological, except for the flow of how it all pans out in the End of these old heavens and old earth being destroyed, and then the Beginning of the New Heaven and New Earth. To me, all of that has nothing to do with living on another planet similar to this one.

Is living in Eternity another Dimension??
As of yet, we don't know!
All that we now experience in this life is: time, pain, suffering and the 1st death of our mortal bodies. But even in that, Jesus says: "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" John 11:26

 

[ewq1938]

No one under the NC receives the Holy Spirit after they die!!

That contradicts what the bible says so that is the teaching of church-ianity which means something not from God or the bible.

Psa 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

 

[Earburner]

That contradicts what the bible says so that is the teaching of church-ianity which means something not from God or the bible.

Psa 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

Do you not understand that the Psalmist ALREADY KNEW that the Holy Spirit of God could not permanently STAY within him or any man, and therefore was only pleading with God, and hoping that for himself, that would not be the case.

Honestly, in light of John 7:39 and Rev. 6:9-11, if you cannot discern that a Holy God cannot and will not permanently dwell within sinful man WITHOUT the atonement FOR SIN by the shedding of Christ's innocent blood, then you have allowed yourself to become BLIND by the teachings of "the wisdom of men" and their pharisaical ways (church-ianity).

John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

 

[ewq1938]

Do you not understand that the Psalmist ALREADY KNEW that the Holy Spirit of God could not permanently STAY within him or any man, and therefore was only pleading with God, and hoping that for himself, that would not be the case.

It is proof people were able to have the HS in the OT. Also, there is nothing written in the bible about ppl not having the HS permanently in the OT/before the cross.

 

[Davidpt]

They are numbered for a reason. It describes things that happen in the realm of time. This doesn't mean that all the seal events happen, then all the trumpet events, then all the vial events. I believe the seals, trumpets and vials are all parallel to each other. So, my understanding of the fifth seal agrees with my understanding of the fifth trumpet and fifth vial. But, the seals are numbered for a reason. The seal events happen in chronological order in parallel with the numbered trumpets and numbered vials.

But notice what happens when you reason things in this absurd manner.

Revelation 8:1 ¶And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

Thus is parallel with the 7th trumpet and 7th vial per what you said.


You clearly and undeniably said ALL seals and ALL trumpets, and ALL vials, run in parallel, keeping in mind there are clearly 7 sets of each, as in, if you are correct---

1) seal 1, trumpet 1, vial 1, are running in parallel
2) seal 2, trumpet 2, vial 2, are running in parallel
3) seal 3, trumpet 3, vial 3, are running in parallel
4) seal 4, trumpet 4, vial 4, are running in parallel
5) seal 5, trumpet 5, vial 5, are running in parallel
6) seal 6, trumpet 6, vial 6, are running in parallel
7) seal 7, trumpet 7, vial 7, are running in parallel

Yet look what follows the half hour silence in heaven per the 7th seal. And it clearly isn't the 7th trumpet. Therefore, it is absurd that the seals, trumpets, and vials, run in parallel. Because if they did, the first trumpet would not be sounding during/after the 7th seal, the 7th trumpet would be sounding.

Revelation 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.
6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.
7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

 

[Earburner]

It is proof people were able to have the HS in the OT. Also, there is nothing written in the bible about ppl not having the HS permanently in the OT/before the cross.

If you want to deny the blood of Christ for the Atonement of sins, and then believe that YOU CAN HAVE the Gift of Eternal Life WITH OUT IT, then you will argue about everything, just so as to keep your pet doctrines.

 

[stevesonthebay]

In 2 Thessalonians 2 Paul gives us enough markers for identifying the term, "lawlessness," the "timing"of when this "lawlessness begins and ends," and the ability to identify the man of lawlessness. If one can identify each of his marker's in Scripture and history, then the field of possible candidates becomes very narrow. Further, if one were to bring in the Book of Daniel, we will find we will find Daniel and Paul are identifying the same indiividual and time in history.

A. The chronological sequence Paul gives - (These are the time-order elements):​

1. The Thessalonians are being deceived about the day of the Lord
   Paul begins with: “Let no one deceive you.” The whole issue is whether Christ’s return had already come or was immediately present.

As we know Christs era was just beginning at that time Thessalonians being close to Christs death and resurrection would be very much aware and spectulate about His return more than anyone. I think the present and the immediate future always seems to be more important.

Paul and I think the disciples finally got it after Christs resurrection that this was much bigger than what people could have imagined.

1. The falling away must come first
   Before the day of the Lord, there must be an apostasy — a departure from truth within the professed people of God.

I think that begun fairly early after Christ and has gradually been falling away. Today we are more fallen away then ever I think. Or getting close. Though I hear of young people coming back to the church. But generally the world is dominating and even the churches.

1. The mystery of lawlessness is already at work
   The principle is already operating in Paul’s day, but not yet fully visible.

Yes I agree. The same dark forces and principalities were at work in the early Christian world. In some ways I think theres some similarities with how paganism has also grown and other world ideologies.

But it seems these principalities are developing or evolving into fullness. As a world we are becoming more aware while at the same time getting better at hiding the truth. With lies. But sooner or later the truth comes out.

1. Something is restraining it
   The lawlessness is active, but prevented from reaching its full revealed form.

I don't know about this one. Maybe the lawlessness has to earn its lawlessness. Become its full manifestation. Not sure who would be preventing the lawlessness. But I think there is a rise in lawlessness and defiance in some places.

1. The restraint must be removed
   Paul says the restrainer continues “until he is taken out of the way.”

Not sure about this one either. But it sounds like its about 'time' or the 'right time'. God often works for the right time. Like God giving the Canaanites 400 years to continue sin until it reached its full, complete measure before executing judgment.

1. Then the lawless one is revealed
   The hidden principle becomes an identifiable power.

Thats scary. Will we be able to identify him or them or it. Whatever it is. It would have to be obvious to Christians as Paul is telling us he or it can be identified. I think it relates to the principle or dark spiritual force that is at work and not just a single person. The dark force can be identified by how it is opposite to Christ. Is anti Christ. That seems more a force. A worldview or ideology growing and taking over.

1. This power continues until Christ destroys it at His coming
   That means it cannot be merely a first-century figure who came and went. It continues until the final return of Christ.

I think probably just about every century has has some point where people believed the end and Christ was near. Its taken nearly two millenia to get where we are today. We have developed a lot since them. But I also thing in some modern ways we are similar as far as the forces at work in the world. Always lurking in the dark waiting for the right time.

So, before we go on to discuss the characteristics of the "man of lawlessness," can we use the above 7 markers to begin to discover this fellow?

B. The identifying characteristics of the power - (These describe what this lawless power is like):​

1. Self-exaltation
   He “exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped.”

I think just about everyone in the world is doing that in a individualistic culture. Celeb and reality TV and looking good. Or virtue signing about how great they are.

Sort of similar to the Egyptian pharoahs and High priests who bragged about how great they were. I could imagine it would be like todays celebrity worship. Except they are now on the nose for being virtue signalling hypocrites with all the toxic behaviour behind the scenes.

1. Religious usurpation
   He “sits in the temple of God,” meaning he takes a position inside the sphere of God’s worship and people.

I can't understand whether this is about someone actually sitting on Gods throne on the Temple mount. Or claiming to be God and standing in His place metaphorically. Or spiritually. Like the dark force and spirit is behind a person or organisation that is in control like God. In some ways I think all the leaders of the big nations as well as world organisations like the UN, EEC and world economic forum.

Maybe other forces like Islam, Marxism, Communism. All the major principle forces at work in the world are jossling and positioning themselves. I have noticed though that some of these principalities join forces. Even if they are opposed to each other because of a common hate for Christ.

So I guess there maybe be a winner out of all these forces that the world has to sit under. Sounds more like the 'One world government" people talk about. Or some digitalisation of everyone.

1. Claim of divine authority
   He “shows himself that he is God,” meaning he claims authority that belongs only to God.

Many have done this. Charlie comes to mind. But on a world level that would be scary. But to be able to get into such a position the world itself would have to have bought into the process to get him or it there. Its just that once we or they are there its too late and control is lost.

1. Counterfeit spiritual power
   His coming is “according to the working of Satan,” with signs, lying wonders, and deception.

Lying wonders sounds like its a pretty convincing lie that people are fooled by. Its very convincing right down to the soul. Will we be able to tell ? Do you think its happening now or is close ?

1. Opposition to truth
   People are deceived because they do not receive the love of the truth.

This is been happening for some time I reckon. We are well steeped within a postmodernist world where everything is relative and there is not truths or one true God and His son. I think with enlightenment paradoxically our minds have become clouded and even darkened from the truth and light.

It got to a point where I think people were finding and making up stuff just not to admit the truth. It became so common that it has killed any claimed truth. Truth has lost its meaning. But Christ truth always comes out in the end. Or rather is always there but can cut through the most sophisticated deceptions sooner or later.

I think it may be sooner rather than later. But then I may be thinking the present and near future is always more real and it just seems that way. Thankyou for a great thread. It has got me thinking of God and looking to Christs return.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

But notice what happens when you reason things in this absurd manner.

LOL. Says the guy who reasons things in an absurd manner incessantly.

Revelation 8:1 ¶And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

Thus is parallel with the 7th trumpet and 7th vial per what you said.

Uh huh. Very good deduction skills there, buddy.

You clearly and undeniably said ALL seals and ALL trumpets, and ALL vials, run in parallel,

Uh huh. Hey, maybe your reading skills are improving? You got it right! Way to go!

keeping in mind there are clearly 7 sets of each

No way? Really? Wow. Who knew?

, as in, if you are correct---

1) seal 1, trumpet 1, vial 1, are running in parallel
2) seal 2, trumpet 2, vial 2, are running in parallel
3) seal 3, trumpet 3, vial 3, are running in parallel
4) seal 4, trumpet 4, vial 4, are running in parallel
5) seal 5, trumpet 5, vial 5, are running in parallel
6) seal 6, trumpet 6, vial 6, are running in parallel
7) seal 7, trumpet 7, vial 7, are running in parallel

Why you felt the need to spell out what is already obvious is beyond me. You waste so much time for no reason. And you don't even have that much time to post, as it is. At least half of your posts are filled with things that didn't need to be said.

Yet look what follows the half hour silence in heaven per the 7th seal. And it clearly isn't the 7th trumpet.

No, the things described in relation to the 7th trumpet are happening during that half hour, not after it.

Therefore, it is absurd that the seals, trumpets, and vials, run in parallel.

For what reason exactly? Your reasoning is utterly absurd. You are making no sense whatsoever and then proclaiming that what I'm saying is absurd. No, your utter lack of reading comprehension skills is what is absurd. You can't understand anything you read, so that's why you misrepresent what everyone believes all the time.

Because if they did, the first trumpet would not be sounding during/after the 7th seal, the 7th trumpet would be sounding.

The first trumpet doesn't sound during/after the 7th seal. That's your absurd assumption based on your absurd belief that Revelation is a book that should be read in chronological order as much as possible. You proved NOTHING with this post as is ALWAYS the case anytime you embarrass yourself by trying to refute Amil. You'd think you'd have tired of that by now after all these years, but I guess you enjoy it for some odd reason.

 

[ewq1938]

If you want to deny the blood of Christ for the Atonement of sins,

No one has done that. This is a false accusation and character attack in place or a valid response about this subject.

and then believe that YOU CAN HAVE the Gift of Eternal Life WITH OUT IT, then you will argue about everything, just so as to keep your pet doctrines.

It's a fact that people had the Holy Spirit in the OT. No one said anything about having eternal life without the blood of Christ.

 

[Earburner]

No one has done that. This is a false accusation and character attack in place or a valid response about this subject.



It's a fact that people had the Holy Spirit in the OT. No one said anything about having eternal life without the blood of Christ.

You don't get it at all.
Do you not understand that Jesus Himself is "the First Resurrection" unto New and Eternal Life? If you are Born again, think on that for a minute, in conjunction with Rev. 20:6. Hopefully, you ALREADY "have taken part" in "the First Resurrection", by being Born again of the Holy Spirit

The Holy Spirit is the vehicle of the Gift of Eternal Life BECAUSE HE IS the 3rd Person of the Eternal God head.
If He does not personally and permanently dwell within a person, THEY DO NOT HAVE the Gift of Eternal Life, and therefore remain in death, no matter how much they believe about Jesus. Rom. 8:8-9; 1 John 5:13.

The Blood of Christ forgives ALL sins that are common to men, but it DOES NOT GIVE to anyone the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
Please study and discern John 7:39.
39. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; BECAUSE that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Rom. 8:8-9
8 So then they that are in the flesh [only] cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh [only], but in the Spirit [also], if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the [Holy] Spirit is life because of [God's] righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Again,...prior to the act of John 7:39,
NO ONE of the OC. EVER HAD the permanent indwelling of God's Holy Spirit. He could ONLY temporarily VISIT with them.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

But notice what happens when you reason things in this absurd manner.

Revelation 8:1 ¶And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

Thus is parallel with the 7th trumpet and 7th vial per what you said.


You clearly and undeniably said ALL seals and ALL trumpets, and ALL vials, run in parallel, keeping in mind there are clearly 7 sets of each, as in, if you are correct---

1) seal 1, trumpet 1, vial 1, are running in parallel
2) seal 2, trumpet 2, vial 2, are running in parallel
3) seal 3, trumpet 3, vial 3, are running in parallel
4) seal 4, trumpet 4, vial 4, are running in parallel
5) seal 5, trumpet 5, vial 5, are running in parallel
6) seal 6, trumpet 6, vial 6, are running in parallel
7) seal 7, trumpet 7, vial 7, are running in parallel

Yet look what follows the half hour silence in heaven per the 7th seal. And it clearly isn't the 7th trumpet. Therefore, it is absurd that the seals, trumpets, and vials, run in parallel. Because if they did, the first trumpet would not be sounding during/after the 7th seal, the 7th trumpet would be sounding.

Revelation 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.
6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.
7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

Can you explain why you said all of this while at the same time you believe that the seals and trumpets are parallel? It seems like you completely contradicted your own beliefs here, unless I'm missing something. While you don't agree with me that the vials are also parallel to the seals and trumpets, it seems like you're also arguing against the possibility of the seals and trumpets being parallel, yet that is what you believe is the case.

 

[ewq1938]

Prior to the act of John 7:39,
NO ONE of the OC. EVER HAD the permanent indwelling of God's Holy Spirit. He could ONLY temporarily VISIT with them.

I see no evidence God ever removed the HS from David.

 

[Earburner]

I see no evidence God ever removed the HS from David.

If a person lived and died under the OC. and had the permanency of the Holy Spirit dwelling within them,...when did they go to heaven/paradise?

Please read Col. 1:18, then select your answer of either #1 or #2:
1. Immediately after their death.
2. Not until after "the First resurrection", who is Jesus.

By the way, I would appreciate it if you would copy/paste all of what I respond to you with, so that "on lookers" can know the context of what you are replying to and how I reached my conclusions of understanding.
Thanks, EB.

 

[ewq1938]

If a person lived and died under the OC. and had the permanency of the Holy Spirit dwelling within them,...when did they go to heaven/paradise?

At death of course.

Please read Col. 1:18, then select your answer of either #1 or #2:
1. Immediately after their death.
2. Not until after "the First resurrection", who is Jesus.

The first resurrection is not about going to heaven but leaving heaven as a resurrected immortal being that will live on Earth.

By the way, I would appreciate it if you would copy/paste all of what I respond to you with, so that "on lookers" can know the context of what you are replying to and how I reached my conclusions of understanding.
Thanks, EB.

They can follow the link to the original. I don't always respond to every part of a post, especially if something is not relevant.

 

[Behold]

In 2 Thessalonians 2 Paul gives us enough markers for identifying the term, "lawlessness

Paul is teaching = where Jesus was teaching about the Trib and Great Trib., that you find in Matt 24... as found in verses where Jesus talks about "enduring to the end" and the "Abomination of Desolation".

 

[Earburner]

At death of course.




The first resurrection is not about going to heaven but leaving heaven as a resurrected immortal being that will live on Earth.

Could it be that you interpret the scripture of Rev. 20:6 from a perspective that is according to the Premil understanding and not that of the Amil understanding, as I do?
Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that  HATH PART in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be [future, after the fact] priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years [during this present Age of God's Grace].

Did you notice that the word "hath" is in the present tense of the possessive pronouns of "they" and "he"?
Is Jesus not "the First resurrection", that all Born again Christians take part in, during the act of their baptism by water and their recieving of the Gift of the Holy Spirit?

They can follow the link to the original. I don't always respond to every part of a post, especially if something is not relevant.

Yes, that would be the intention of that function, but it's much easier to read what is copied and placed in front of you, than to go chase something and risk losing one's focus and place about the topic.

Thanks, EB.