What does it mean to be "born again"?

[IndianaRob]

And how do you do that?

I'm sure Nic knew his Torah.

Nobody can know for sure but I’m guessing Nic corrupted the words, changed them to fit what he thought was right rather than letting scripture change his beliefs, he twisted it to conform to what he thought was true.

The words of the Bible are just like DNA. A set of words that produce Christ in us.

 

[Rockerduck]

If that was Nicodemus's unstated question, "When will God's Kingdom come?"

Some Bibles end the quotation at verse 15.

What does "Believe in Him" mean? Does John 7:50 and John 19:39 indicate that Nicodemus "believed in Him"? Was Nicodemus "born from above"? What DID happen to him?

Jesus knew what Nic's thoughts were. Jesus did that to pharisee's all the time when healing on the Sabbath. We can only surmise more took place between Jesus and Nicodemus, and therefore Nicodemus believed in Jesus as the Messiah. Nicodemus became bolder in the Sanhedrin too, and assisted with the burial of Jesus.

 

[Armour of God]

@Lambano @SavedInHim @Rockerduck @Debp

Hello brothers and sisters

My opinion is not a popular one but it is the opinion that was/is held by the early church, interpreted by the ancients.
I believe that born again refers to baptism.

- We see in John 3:22 that Jesus did baptise and we see in other gospels that Jesus was baptized.
"22 After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized."

- The end of John chapter 3 is focused on baptism, immediately after the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus. In fact the text actually reads "after this" indicating that it is continuing with the same narrative.
I don't simply ignore or dismiss this, I see it as being a clear indication that one is connected to one another.

- Spirit.
When Jesus got baptised we read that the
"16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him"
Matthew 3:16.
Again this cannot be ignored or simply dismissed. The modern day explanation to how spirit applies isnt a very good one compared to this in my opinion.

- Water
Water refers to the water used in baptism in my opinion and that of the ancient interpretation of the early church.
The response to the modern interpretation is that it means birth from the mother.
Two things wrong with this view.
- The first is that the liquid from the womb is not water at all, it's amniotic fluid. Jesus is wise and it's highly unlikely he would get this mixed up.
- But lets assume that Jesus did make an error in differentiating these fluids. The problem is that your going back and referring to the original birth, instead of this second birth of being born again which Christ is speaking about. Jesus says being born of "water and spirit". That implies at the same moment. He doesn't say to be first born of water from your mother and then of spirit, that's an assumption.

- Many people describe being born again as some kind of spiritual moment of epiphany. For many people finding Christ doesn't happen in this fashion. For some it happens slowly over the course of a journey. For others they were raised as Christians and have always believed in Christ.

They are the reasons why I believe the same as the ancients did, that born again refers to baptism

God bless

 

[Rockerduck]

@Lambano @SavedInHim @Rockerduck @Debp

Hello brothers and sisters

My opinion is not a popular one but it is the opinion that was/is held by the early church, interpreted by the ancients.
I believe that born again refers to baptism.

- We see in John 3:22 that Jesus did baptise and we see in other gospels that Jesus was baptized.
"22 After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized."

- The end of John chapter 3 is focused on baptism, immediately after the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus. In fact the text actually reads "after this" indicating that it is continuing with the same narrative.
I don't simply ignore or dismiss this, I see it as being a clear indication that one is connected to one another.

- Spirit.
When Jesus got baptised we read that the
"16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him"
Matthew 3:16.
Again this cannot be ignored or simply dismissed. The modern day explanation to how spirit applies isnt a very good one compared to this in my opinion.

- Water
Water refers to the water used in baptism in my opinion and that of the ancient interpretation of the early church.
The response to the modern interpretation is that it means birth from the mother.
Two things wrong with this view.
- The first is that the liquid from the womb is not water at all, it's amniotic fluid. Jesus is wise and it's highly unlikely he would get this mixed up.
- But lets assume that Jesus did make an error in differentiating these fluids. The problem is that your going back and referring to the original birth, instead of this second birth of being born again which Christ is speaking about. Jesus says being born of "water and spirit". That implies at the same moment. He doesn't say to be first born of water from your mother and then of spirit, that's an assumption.

- Many people describe being born again as some kind of spiritual moment of epiphany. For many people finding Christ doesn't happen in this fashion. For some it happens slowly over the course of a journey. For others they were raised as Christians and have always believed in Christ.

They are the reasons why I believe the same as the ancients did, that born again refers to baptism

God bless

I appreciate your view. You understand scripture cannot contradict scripture, it must harmonize. So when you read John 3:22 and then John 4:1-2. You must harmonize them because they cannot contradict. Both verses say Jesus and His disciples baptized, but John clarifies that just the disciples were doing the baptizing. It is a small point, but important for harmonizing scripture, other wise you are only choosing scripture verses to suite what theology you support. Read what the bible says and not what you want it to say.

Spirit - You cannot compare the baptism of Jesus with anybody else, it was a one time event, Jesus is God.

Water - I understand your confusion, I've heard it over and over for 40 yrs. The Jews used water baptism for proselytes to join the Jewish religion and still do today. One Point, John 3:6 says "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is sprit". So A. you must be born B. you must be born of the Spirit.

Born again- Your are correct, some people have what's called the "faith of the mustard seed" it is a gradual growth. The term born again actually started in the 70's with baby boomers. Before that it was discussed in bible studies. Regeneration is the doctrine the Churches use.
Spirit regeneration. Now people say they are born again after a sickness, or a baseball player comes out of a slump, calls himself born again. It is a catch phrase now for anyone getting a new start in life. If someone says they are a born again Christian it is a redundant statement of saying, I am a Christian Christian.
Acts 1:5 - John baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit, not many days from now. (Pentecost)

Luke 3:16 - John answered and said to them all, “As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

See how scripture harmonizes?

Hope this helps

 

[Lambano]

My opinion is not a popular one but it is the opinion that was/is held by the early church, interpreted by the ancients.
I believe that born again refers to baptism

Okay; let's flesh that out a bit. (Pun intentional.)

If I were to argue that, I'd start with verse 5:

5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Being "born of water" is an obvious reference to Baptism, and there is a lot of baptizing going on here (though I disagree with the statement "the rest of the chapter is about baptism").

Question 1: What does being "born of the Spirit" mean?

 

[Lambano]

- Spirit.
When Jesus got baptised we read that the
"16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him"
Matthew 3:16.

If I were making this argument, I wouldn't use Matthew to argue John. John has his own VERY unique perspective on Jesus. Instead, I'd go back to John's narrative of Jesus's baptism:

29 The next day he sees Jesus coming to him and says, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is He on behalf of whom I said, ‘After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’ 31 I did not recognize Him, but so that He might be manifested to Israel, I came baptizing in water.” 32 John testified saying, “I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him. 33 I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, ‘He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.’ 34 I myself have seen, and have testified that this is the Son of God.” (John 1:29-34)

Question 2: When we get baptized in water, does the Holy Spirit descend and remain on us too?

 

[Lambano]

The "born" theme naturally leads to the next question:

Question 3: Can we tie in "being born from above" with what John the Evangelist writes in his Prologue?

12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:12-13)

Birth. The start of new life.

Question 4: Does this verse answer the "what" (and "how"?) questions?

 

[Lambano]

Question 2: When we get baptized in water, does the Holy Spirit descend and remain on us too?

Objection: Jesus's disciples receive the Holy Spirit when Jesus breathes on them, not during baptism:

21 So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and says to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit". (John 20:21-22)

Question 5: Does this disconnect baptism in the Holy Spirit (see John 1:33 above) from water baptism?

 

[Armour of God]

I appreciate your view. You understand scripture cannot contradict scripture, it must harmonize. So when you read John 3:22 and then John 4:1-2. You must harmonize them because they cannot contradict. Both verses say Jesus and His disciples baptized, but John clarifies that just the disciples were doing the baptizing. It is a small point, but important for harmonizing scripture, other wise you are only choosing scripture verses to suite what theology you support. Read what the bible says and not what you want it to say.

John 4:1 Says Jesus did not baptise
John 3:22 Says Jesus did baptise
John 3:26 Also says Jesus did baptise
26 They came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, that man who was with you on the other side of the Jordan—the one you testified about—look, he is baptizing, and everyone is going to him.”
The fact is that twice John says that Jesus baptised. But he only appears to say that Jesus didn't baptise once. It can be twisted either way.
Read what the bible says not what you want it to say. Sometimes we just can't explain these differences.

Whether Jesus baptised others or not doesn't make much of a difference anyway.

- Jesus still got baptised himself.
- The rest of John 3 still talks about baptism.
- Water still most resembles baptism and cannot be amniotic fluid.
- And spirit resembles the spirit that came down to Christ at his baptism. Modern interpretation of that has no biblical backing

Spirit - You cannot compare the baptism of Jesus with anybody else, it was a one time event, Jesus is God.

Yes we can compare Jesus baptism with our own. The spirit of God descends upon him.
What's the modern born again explanation for spirit? And what biblical backing is there?

Water - I understand your confusion, I've heard it over and over for 40 yrs. The Jews used water baptism for proselytes to join the Jewish religion and still do today. One Point, John 3:6 says "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is sprit". So A. you must be born B. you must be born of the Spirit.

So then water is water and amniotic fluid is amniotic fluid. There is no confusing the two. Born again of water and spirit. I can only see it being baptism, not some epiphany.

Born again- Your are correct, some people have what's called the "faith of the mustard seed" it is a gradual growth. The term born again actually started in the 70's with baby boomers. Before that it was discussed in bible studies. Regeneration is the doctrine the Churches use.
Spirit regeneration. Now people say they are born again after a sickness, or a baseball player comes out of a slump, calls himself born again. It is a catch phrase now for anyone getting a new start in life. If someone says they are a born again Christian it is a redundant statement of saying, I am a Christian Christian.

I agree this term born again gets thrown around alot.

To me the arguments for modern born again are not very good. I think the ancients were correct in their interpretation

 

[Armour of God]

Being "born of water" is an obvious reference to Baptism, and there is a lot of baptizing going on here (though I disagree with the statement "the rest of the chapter is about baptism"). What does being "born of the Spirit" mean?

You agree that born of water is an obvious reference to baptism.

You really disagree that the rest of the chapter being about baptism. What do you think the rest of the chapter is about?

To answer your question, i think being born of the spirit means we receive the Holy Spirit. Just as God's spirit came down to Christ when he was baptised.

What do you think born of the spirit means in the modern interpretation of born again?

 

[Armour of God]

Question 2: When we get baptized in water, does the Holy Spirit descend and remain on us too?

This is how the ancient early church interpreted it and that's what I believe

 

[Armour of God]

Question 4: Does this answer the "how" and "what" questions?

I don't understand what your trying to say here. But your using a quote from another chapter that isn't talking about being born again

 

[Lambano]

I don't understand what your trying to say here. But your using a quote from another chapter that isn't talking about being born again

Oh, but John 1:12-13 IS most definitely talking about being born (again):

12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

This is where John introduces the topic of being reborn as "children of God". (A key topic in his first epistle too.) He circles back to it in chapter 3. Do you see it?

 

[Lambano]

Remember, we're taking a dip in the wonderful world of symbols and metaphors.

 

[Armour of God]

Objection: Jesus's disciples receive the Holy Spirit when Jesus breathes on them, not during baptism:

21 So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and says to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit". (John 20:21-22)

Question 5: Does this disconnect baptism in the Holy Spirit (see John 1:33 above) from water baptism?

Matthew 3:11
11 “I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Acts 1:5
5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

Mark 1:8
I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."

1 Corinthians 12:13
13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink

Luke 3:16
John answered, saying to all, “I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

There are some verses that relate baptism with the Holy Spirit

 

[Armour of God]

Oh, but John 1:12-13 IS most definitely talking about being born (again):

12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

This is where John introduces the topic of being reborn as "children of God". (A key topic in his first epistle too.) He circles back to it in chapter 3. Do you see it?

Sorry I don't see how this relates to being born again through water and spirit. None of those things are mentioned here

 

[Lambano]

You really disagree that the rest of the chapter being about baptism. What do you think the rest of the chapter is about?

Chapter 3 verse 22 through chapter 4 verse 2 is John the Baptist testifying about Jesus's absolute superiority.

 

[Lambano]

Sorry I don't see how this relates to being born again through water and spirit. None of those things are mentioned here

Do you understand what "Birth" means? The start of New Life?

John is just introducing the topic in chapter 1. (You will note that John does this, introduces a topic early then circles back to it later, both in his Gospel and in 1 John.) He will flesh out some more later, in chapter 3.

 

[Armour of God]

Chapter 3 verse 22 through chapter 4 verse 2 is John the Baptist testifying about Jesus's absolute superiority.

It's is also about that, but I see it mostly being about baptism. At the very least it mentions it several times

So how do you link being born of the spirit to the modern view of being born again?

And just so we are both on the same page,
What is your definition of being born again?

 

[Rockerduck]

Matthew 3:11
11 “I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Acts 1:5
5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

Mark 1:8
I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."

1 Corinthians 12:13
13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink

Luke 3:16
John answered, saying to all, “I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

There are some verses that relate baptism with the Holy Spirit

There you go, you got it. There is the 40 yrs confusion I've delt with. There is a water baptism and a Holy Spirit baptism. Many believe the they are both the same and its confusing. Water baptism is a physical immersion in water in front of a church congregation to symbolize your death and resurrection in Christ, after the baptism of the Holy Spirit. So, starts the confusion, unless your received the (baptism) Holy Spirit through the regeneration from above there is no need for the (baptism) dunking in water.