A Biblical Lesson on Spiritual Discernment

[IndianaRob]

If you aren't convinced with the verses I've given I doubt any other verses will convince you. John shows living souls in heaven after being martyred for their faith. If they are not in heaven and are as the angels of God; spirit beings, then what do the living martyred souls John shows us consist of?

The souls under the altar are the Old Testament saints before Christ paid for their sins. The verse after that where they’re given white robes is when Jesus paid for their sins.

 

[rwb]

The souls under the altar are the Old Testament saints before Christ paid for their sins. The verse after that where they’re given white robes is when Jesus paid for their sins.

I agree but (1) they aren't the only martyred souls John sees, and (2) the martyred souls of Rev 6 didn't remain under the altar waiting for Christ to redeem them from the graves. After His cross and resurrection, we see them again in Rev 7 as 144,000 from all the tribes of the children of Israel being sealed with the life-giving spirit, and then we see the same 144,000 again in Rev 14 appearing with the Lamb on Mt Zion of heaven (Heb 12:22), as firstfruits unto God having been redeemed from the earth. If this isn't evidence of living spirit souls in heaven after death, I don't know what would be.

 

[IndianaRob]

I agree but (1) they aren't the only martyred souls John sees, and (2) the martyred souls of Rev 6 didn't remain under the altar waiting for Christ to redeem them from the graves. After His cross and resurrection, we see them again in Rev 7 as 144,000 from all the tribes of the children of Israel being sealed with the life-giving spirit, and then we see the same 144,000 again in Rev 14 appearing with the Lamb on Mt Zion of heaven (Heb 12:22), as firstfruits unto God having been redeemed from the earth. If this isn't evidence of living spirit souls in heaven after death, I don't know what would be.

I’ll have to come back to this tomorrow, got to go to bed now.

 

[Truth7t7]

Give me a break. There isn't a last trumpet sound for each of us individually. There is only one last trumpet sound and when it sounds Paul said the dead will be resurrected and then we all will be changed at that time. Please do not try to give me this nonsense that it's not one corporate event when it so obviously is.

The very same argument (Full Preterist) use, to deny a future literal second coming isn't even in the ball park

And yes it's one last trump, all that are in the grave shall hear his voice "Singular" and come forth

I'm not going to further engage in dialogue with a poster that denies a literal second coming

"All" means "All"

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[Truth7t7]

Nice job of avoiding the point. I'm talking about the timing of the last trumpet regardless of who makes its sound. You are not looking at the text carefully at all. So, let's do that.

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

Notice that there is no indication here whatsoever of a last trumpet sounding for each individual. You read that into the text. Paul calls it "the last trumpet" which will result in all of us being changed when it sounds, not a last trumpet for each person that is changed one by one.

Then notice that when the last trumpet sounds, "the dead will be raised incorruptible, and WE shall be changed". Paul clearly portrays this as a corporate event when the dead are all raised and WE shall be changed at that point. There is no indication here in any way, shape or form that he's talking about something that happens for each individual upon death. Not even close.

And then notice what he says in verse 54. When the last trumpet sounds, that is when the saying that is written in Isaiah 25:8 will be fulfilled, which is that "death is swallowed up in victory". Death has not been swallowed up in victory yet. According to Paul himself earlier in the chapter death will be defeated when Christ comes, the dead in Christ are resurrected and He delivers His kingdom to God the Father, which has not yet happened (1 Corinthians 15:22-28). He spoke there of the resurrection of the dead in Christ as being a corporate event, so why would you think that is not the case in relation to 1 Corinthians 15:52 as well? There is just nothing there whatsoever to suggest that each individual's body is changed upon death. Rather, Paul clearly indicates that we all will be changed at the same time when the dead in Christ are resurrected at the sound of the last trumpet.

I Agree 100% Good Post, I like using the term "Glorified Body" and this takes place at the second coming last day resurrection as you've shown

The full preterist denies the future general resurrection if all at the last trump, all future events that is the Christian foundations are removed, namely the future second comi g and resurrection of all that takes place at the last Trump (Full Preterism) is considered by many to be heretical, and this false teaching is restricted on all boards I've been on

 

[Lizbeth]

You're reading "we shall all be changed" as one corporate event at a future second coming because that's your eschatology, but nothing in the passage requires it to be corporate. "We shall all be changed" means every believer is changed, not all at the same moment, but each in his own "twinkling of an eye."

That moment is death. When it's our time to go, we don't actually taste death. We're changed in an instant and receive the eternal house Paul describes in 2 Corinthians 5:1. The earthly tent comes down and the heavenly body is put on in the same instant, "in the twinkling of an eye."

Paul includes himself in the "we" because it happens to every believer, himself included, each at his own passing. It doesn't point to one future trumpet blast we're all waiting on. It points to the change every believer undergoes when he leaves this life.

This is a theme throughout the bible.... believers do not die.

Maybe it is individual for the dead in Christ, but there is a future coming of Christ to corporately gather those "who are alive and remain". That has to be a set time in the future. Jesus will gather those believers who have not died and still remain on earth in order that they escape the wrath.

Scriptures that were written some time after Jesus rose from the dead were speaking of a future coming. But there may be more than one sense that is being referred to in how His "coming" is written, for example there is one sense in which it is referring to His giving of the Holy Spirit...where Jesus said "I will not leave you comfortless, I will come to you."

When Jesus ascended to heaven, He was received up into a cloud (of witnesses of OT saints?), and the angel said He will return in like manner. This was after His resurrection. And these also speak of His coming again in the future, in clouds:

Mat 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mar 13:26
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

1Th 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


Something else to consider is whether prophecies were to the Jew first, then the Gentile, like the gospel is to the Jew first then the Gentile. The whole word of God was to the Jew first, then the Gentile essentially. God was dealing with Israel under the old covenant first and finishing up His dealings and prophecies with them, so to speak......there was a last day for Jerusalem/Israel which occurred in 70AD. This is why the early Jewish church correctly said they were in the last days, the "last time", way back in the first century...tribulation, wrath and judgment was soon coming to Israel. But then, as Solomon wrote, "what has been will be again, there is nothing new under the sun".....so after dealing with Israel and fulfilling prophecies to her, God then turned to the Gentiles and has been dealing mainly with the Gentiles (the world) during the times of the Gentiles, the gospel age......we await His coming to judge the world (Gentiles) this time. The mostly Gentile church is following the same pattern as Israel in its apostasy, and like Israel, only a remnant will be saved.

Rom 2:9
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

 

[rwb]

I follow you, and we actually agree on part of it. The change happens to each believer individually, in his own order, at death. That much we're together on.

The change man receives, each in his/her own order comes in life when we are born again through the Spirit of Christ. The change we experience is not outward, but inward where our spirit was natural man, and spiritually speaking "dead in trespasses and sins." When we have been spiritually changed we are no longer natural man, but through Christ's Spirit we have supernaturally become spiritually alive.

The change that happens when the last trumpet sounds is of our mortal, corruptible flesh. When the last trumpet sounds ALL who have died both believers and unbelievers will be called from the dead either to receive immortal & incorruptible body of flesh that is everlasting life, or to stand before the great white throne to be judged according to what is found written in the books and the book of life. Since the names of the dead who died in unbelief will not be found in the Lamb's book of life their bodily resurrection shall be condemnation of the lake of fire that is the second death.

 

[Behold]

Paul never says that our physical body shall be resurrected a spiritual body when the last trumpet sounds.

Paul does not teach that the body that you have right now is going to be resurrected.
What Paul teaches is that the born again will get a NEW Body...... and the new body is designed for the "new creation", that is the born again spirit.

 

[rwb]

Paul does not teach that the body that you have right now is going to be resurrected.
What Paul teaches is that the born again will get a NEW Body...... and the new body is designed for the "new creation", that is the born again spirit.

Does Paul say "new body"? I don't find that in Scripture? I find Paul saying only that the body shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. The change is that our body though sown mortal and corruptible, shall have put on incorruption and immortality. Paul doesn't say our mortal body raised immortal and incorruptible shall be a spiritual body. That's how the body raised shall be as man was created in the beginning before sin and death through sin entered and the fall changing our body then is why our flesh was destined to grown old, weak, sin and die.

Our vile corruptible, mortal body shall be fashioned like His glorious body through immortal, incorruptible life forever on the new earth.

Philippians 3:21 (KJV) Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 (KJV) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Corinthians 15:53-54 (KJV) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

But as I've shown using the writing from Paul, is how there is a transition period for those who have been born again after our mortal, corruptible flesh breathes it's last. Our mortal body goes into the grave to return to dust, but our spirit eternally alive through the Spirit of Christ in us, which means that our spirit is living soul in heaven spirit beings as are the angels of God in heaven. This is why Christ tells us that whosoever lives and believes in Him shall never die. Christ said this knowing our mortal body would die, but through His Spirit within our spirit, our spirit eternally alive (soul) returns to God who gave it to wait for the last/seventh trumpet to sound.

This is why Paul makes a distinction between the natural body and the spiritual body. Telling us we (born again believers) have both natural body of flesh that will die, but also spiritual body that is eternal. That's why he explicitly writes: "There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body." Since the life we possess in Christ when we are born again is eternal but our flesh is not, that which is raised (awakened) when our mortal flesh dies is spiritual body, given a body that is no longer terrestrial (of the earth), but becomes celestial (of heaven) when the spirit departs from our flesh to return to God.

1 Corinthians 15:40 (KJV) There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Paul does not teach that the body that you have right now is going to be resurrected.
What Paul teaches is that the born again will get a NEW Body...... and the new body is designed for the "new creation", that is the born again spirit.

Paul says our bodies will be changed (1 Corinthians 15:51-52). What is your understanding of that change that will take place? What exactly do you think will be changed and what will it be changed into?

 

[Behold]

Paul says our bodies will be changed (1 Corinthians 15:51-52). What is your understanding of that change that will take place?

It occurs during the Rapture.......not at the 2nd ADVENT.
How do we know? Its because we receive our new body when we are in the AIR Paul teaches........ and the 2nd Advent is Jesus putting His FEET down on the EARTH, because He's standing on it.

What exactly do you think will be changed and what will it be changed into?

Are you born again or just religious and water baptized?
You dont have to tell me. @Spiritual Israelite .....but, just know the difference.
Here is the difference........a water baptized religious person who is fascinated with Jesus and the Bible........there are many of these who went to Hell today.

And why is that?..........Its because Jesus said......"you MUST be born again".........and they weren't......but they could post verses on forums, and they tried to be like Christ, and they went to church a lot.......(or stayed on Forums a lot.)


So, the NEW BODY is designed for the "new Creation" = (born again spirit)........and that means that your old body is not fit or created for the born again Spirit.
Its now a temporary container.. "dead because of sin".... Whereas, the New Body is designed FOR the Born again Spirit.
What is the new body like?
Its the same exact one that Jesus had when He came out of the Grave, but it wont have any scars on it......no holes in the wrist or scars on the back, or on the side, or on the head, or feet.
Its be exaclty like the one that walked through a wall and found the Apostles hiding and scared, after Jesus The Christ The Lord was resurrected.
Its the same one that FLEW OFF OF THIS EARTH.........and back to Heaven, and then called Paul to be the one apostle who was given the JOB, the MINISTRY< of "give them the Gospel of Grace to share...., and all the church doctrine to learn".

So, Thats our NEW BODY.......It will not be contained by time or gravity,. and it does not age, and does not get sick.
It never sleeps......It never gets tired.
Its truly Immortal, and it will be amazing to have it.
Every Christian should look forward to getting their new body, and we'll be getting it soon.
Very soon.

 

[Behold]

Does Paul say "new body"? I don't find that in Scripture?

Philippians 3:20-21: He states that Jesus Christ "will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body,"

Also.

2 Corinthians 5:1: "For we know that if our earthly house (our current body)...., this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens., (our new body).."

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It occurs during the Rapture.......not at the 2nd ADVENT.
How do we know? Its because we receive our new body when we are in the AIR Paul teaches........ and the 2nd Advent is Jesus putting His FEET down on the EARTH, because He's standing on it.

You didn't answer my question. I'll try again. Paul says our bodies will be changed (1 Corinthians 15:51-52). What is your understanding of that change that will take place? Notice that I'm not asking when you think it will take place. I'm asking you what your understanding is of the change that Paul said will take place at the last trumpet. He said the dead in Christ will be raised at that point. What is your understanding of that and what is your understanding of the change that will take place at that time?

Are you born again or just religious and water baptized?
You dont have to tell me. @Spiritual Israelite .....but, just know the difference.

Don't ask me stupid questions. I'm born again, of course. This is a forum for born again users, so there's no reason to be asking me that question. I have done nothing to warrant you to ask me that question.

Here is the difference........a water baptized religious person who is fascinated with Jesus and the Bible........there are many of these who went to Hell today.

No kidding. That doesn't apply to me. Do you understand?

And why is that?..........Its because Jesus said......"you MUST be born again".........and they weren't......but they could post verses on forums, and they tried to be like Christ, and they went to church a lot.......(or stayed on Forums a lot.)

Why are you wasting your time with this, as if I don't know that we must be born again?

So, the NEW BODY is designed for the "new Creation" = (born again spirit)........and that means that your old body is not fit or created for the born again Spirit.
Its now a temporary container.. "dead because of sin".... Whereas, the New Body is designed FOR the Born again Spirit.
What is the new body like?
Its the same exact one that Jesus had when He came out of the Grave, but it wont have any scars on it......no holes in the wrist or scars on the back, or on the side, or on the head, or feet.

Do you not understand that the body Jesus had was resurrected from the dead and then was changed to be incorruptible and immortal?

Its be exaclty like the one that walked through a wall and found the Apostles hiding and scared, after Jesus The Christ The Lord was resurrected.
Its the same one that FLEW OFF OF THIS EARTH.........and back to Heaven, and then called Paul to be the one apostle who was given the JOB, the MINISTRY< of "give them the Gospel of Grace to share...., and all the church doctrine to learn".

So, Thats our NEW BODY.......It will not be contained by time or gravity,. and it does not age, and does not get sick.

Of course, but you're not acknowledging the change of our natural body into the incorruptible, immortal spiritual body that we will have after the last trumpet sounds.

It never sleeps......It never gets tired.
Its truly Immortal, and it will be amazing to have it.
Every Christian should look forward to getting their new body, and we'll be getting it soon.
Very soon.

I think about that often, so I'm very much looking forward to my body being changed from a corruptible, mortal natural body to an incorruptible, immortal spiritual body at the last trumpet when Jesus returns.

 

[Behold]

You didn't answer my question. I'll try again. Paul says our bodies will be changed (1 Corinthians 15:51-52). What is your understanding of that change that will take place?

""""For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud cry of summons, with the shout of an archangel, and with the blast of the trumpet of God. And those who have departed this life in Christ will rise first.

17 Then we, the living ones who remain [on the earth], shall simultaneously be caught up along with [the resurrected dead] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air;"""""

Don't ask me stupid questions. I'm born again, of course. This is a forum for born again users,

"Stupid" would be someone who actually believes that everything that claims to be a "christian" is one......on a Forum, or behind a Pulpit.
This same "stupid" person....... would believve that everything that says "Holy Bible' on the cover, is one.

Read this carefully.

2 Corinthians 11:14-15​

14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.​

15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.​

Why are you wasting your time with this, as if I don't know that we must be born again?

If you asked me if im born again, i would not be insulted.... id happily tell you all about it.

I would not be insulted.......i would be glad for the opportunity to brag on the One who Redeemed me with His precious BLOOD.

Understand?

Do you not understand that the body Jesus had was resurrected from the dead and then was changed to be incorruptible and immortal?

When Jesus walked out of the Tomb, He was in His new Body.
And we'll have one like that, soon enough/

Of course, but you're not acknowledging the change of our natural body into the incorruptible, immortal spiritual body that we will have after the last trumpet sounds.

""""For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud cry of summons, with the shout of an archangel, and with the blast of the trumpet of God. And those who have departed this life in Christ will rise first.

17 Then we, the living ones who remain [on the earth], shall simultaneously be caught up along with [the resurrected dead] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air;"""""

I think about that often, so I'm very much looking forward to my body being changed from a corruptible,

Good.
We are to expect it, desire it, and we are going to be rewarded for looking the Lord's return.

 

[rwb]

When Jesus walked out of the Tomb, He was in His new Body.
And we'll have one like that, soon enough/

Yes, His body that resurrected from the grave was an immortal physical body with the breath of life (spirit) together a living soul. Which is what all who have been born again shall be when the last trumpet sounds and we are changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible. We are not going to be resurrected a "spiritual body", because a spiritual body has not flesh and bone as we shall have. We become spiritual body that is living soul without flesh & bone when our body of flesh has breathed its last. As Paul has written "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body". Because when we have been born again, we have eternal life even though our flesh shall die. That eternal life continues after our natural body is dead. The moment of death our spirit departs from our mortal flesh and is raised a spiritual body in heaven, as are the angels of God in heaven, spirit beings without human form, but alive, nonetheless.

John 6:63 (KJV) It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Luke 24:39 (KJV) Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

This is why it makes absolutely ZERO sense to speak of man becoming a "spiritual body" when we are raised up or resurrected from the grave and changed, that we might live with Christ forever on the new earth after the final trumpet sounds.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

""""For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud cry of summons, with the shout of an archangel, and with the blast of the trumpet of God. And those who have departed this life in Christ will rise first.

17 Then we, the living ones who remain [on the earth], shall simultaneously be caught up along with [the resurrected dead] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air;"""""





"Stupid" would be someone who actually believes that everything that claims to be a "christian" is one......on a Forum, or behind a Pulpit.
This same "stupid" person....... would believve that everything that says "Holy Bible' on the cover, is one.

Read this carefully.

2 Corinthians 11:14-15​

14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.​

15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.​

If you asked me if im born again, i would not be insulted.... id happily tell you all about it.

I would not be insulted.......i would be glad for the opportunity to brag on the One who Redeemed me with His precious BLOOD.

Understand?



When Jesus walked out of the Tomb, He was in His new Body.
And we'll have one like that, soon enough/



""""For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud cry of summons, with the shout of an archangel, and with the blast of the trumpet of God. And those who have departed this life in Christ will rise first.

17 Then we, the living ones who remain [on the earth], shall simultaneously be caught up along with [the resurrected dead] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air;"""""



Good.
We are to expect it, desire it, and we are going to be rewarded for looking the Lord's return.

Once again, you didn't answer the question. What is it that will be resurrected when Jesus returns if not the natural bodies of the dead in Christ? What is the change that will take place at the last trumpet if not the change from having dishonorable, weak, corruptible and mortal natural bodies to having glorious, powerful, incorruptible and immortal spiritual bodies (1 Corinthians 15:42-54)?

 

[claninja]

The AI explained the history of KJV in great detail. Did you all not read what it said? The AI clearly said one cannot use the 1611 edition to prove anything one way or the other. Therefore, this is a strawman based on what the AI said. I'm simply using an AI as a tool for researching purposes. No different than using Google as a tool for researching purposes, for example. Obviously, the AI is not coming up with these things on it's own. It is from data it has gathered from multiple sources.

Once again, it is Preterists that have something to gain by having the prince that shall come to mean Christ. That way it agrees with their interpretation of the coming meant in Matthew 24:30. Shall come = a coming---Matthew 24:30 = a coming. Therefore, per their view, they are correct to interpret Matthew 24:30 in the manner they do since it agrees with Daniel 9:26 and that coming, and that Daniel 9:26 pertains to 70 AD, the same way Matthew 24:30 pertains to 70 AD. Not according to me, but according to Preterists. The rest of us, even @WPM, do not remotely align with Preterists interpretation of Matthew 24:30. And neither do you.

So why are you aligning with them here? You are contradicting how you interpret Matthew 24:30 via how you are interpreting Daniel 9:26. Daniel 9:26 plainly requires a prince that shall come sometime later on after the Messiah is cut off earlier. Preterists feel this can be explained, thus their interpretation of Matthew 24:15-30. Though, IMO, they are wrong, but at least they are trying to be consistent throughout. Unlike you and some others in this thread that have no answer for what coming of Christ took place after He ascended and before He returns? The reason you have no answer is simple. It is because that prince is not meaning Christ to begin with. Thus problem solved. And now you are no longer contradicting your interpretation of Matthew 24:30 no matter who you take the prince to be, as long as you don't take the prince to be meaning Christ.

In Daniel 9:25, there are seven weeks and sixty-two weeks from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem until “Messiah the Prince.” Then, in verse 26a, it explains what happens after the seven weeks and sixty-two weeks, “the Messiah” is cut off. Finally, in verse 26b, the people of “the prince” who is to come destroy the city and the sanctuary.

If the “Messiah” in verse 26a naturally refers back to the “Messiah” in verse 25, why wouldn’t the “prince” in verse 26b also naturally refer back to the “Prince” in verse 25? What in the grammar or context requires the reader to identify the repeated “Messiah” as the same figure, but treat the repeated “prince” as someone entirely different?






25. Know3045therefore and understand,7919 that from4480 the going forth4161 of the commandment1697to restore7725 and to build1129Jerusalem3389unto5704 the messiah4899 the prince5057 shall be seven7651weeks,7620 and threescore8346 and two8147 weeks:7620the street7339 shall be built1129again,7725 and the wall,2742 even in troublous6695times.6256

26 a.) And after310threescore8346 and two8147 weeks7620shall messiah4899be cut off,3772 but not369 for himself:
b.) and the people5971of the prince5057that shall come935shall destroy7843 the city5892 and the sanctuary;6944 and the end7093 thereof shall be with a flood,7858 and unto5704 the end7093of the war4421desolations8074 are determined.2782

 

[rwb]

Once again, you didn't answer the question. What is it that will be resurrected when Jesus returns if not the natural bodies of the dead in Christ? What is the change that will take place at the last trumpet if not the change from having dishonorable, weak, corruptible and mortal natural bodies to having glorious, powerful, incorruptible and immortal spiritual bodies (1 Corinthians 15:42-54)?

Define "powerful"? I don't find powerful included in what our mortal bodies that shall be raised will be? Glorious yes, in the sense of dignity, honor and praiseworthy, but what do you mean by "powerful"? I only found powerful in three verses of Scripture and none pertain to what man shall be.

Ps 29:4 The voice of the LORD is powerful; the voice of the LORD is full of majesty.

2Co 10:10 For his letters, say they, are weighty and powerful; but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Define "powerful"? I don't find powerful included in what our mortal bodies that shall be raised will be?

I can't define that. It doesn't go into specifics about what that means. Read this...

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Look at verse 43 above. The body we have now "is sown in weakness" and it will be "raised in power". It does not say exactly what that means to be raised in power, but it contrasts that with the weakness of the bodies we have now. So, our incorruptible, immortal bodies will be powerful in some way in contrast to the weak bodies we have now. Maybe in the sense that we can't break any bones or pull any muscles or get sick or feel pain and so on. We can only speculate on what it means.

Glorious yes, in the sense of dignity, honor and praiseworthy, but what do you mean by "powerful"? I only found powerful in three verses of Scripture and none pertain to what man shall be.

Ps 29:4 The voice of the LORD is powerful; the voice of the LORD is full of majesty.

2Co 10:10 For his letters, say they, are weighty and powerful; but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

I don't know how you missed it in 1 Corinthians 15:43.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In Daniel 9:25, there are seven weeks and sixty-two weeks from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem until “Messiah the Prince.” Then, in verse 26a, it explains what happens after the seven weeks and sixty-two weeks, “the Messiah” is cut off. Finally, in verse 26b, the people of “the prince” who is to come destroy the city and the sanctuary.

If the “Messiah” in verse 26a naturally refers back to the “Messiah” in verse 25, why wouldn’t the “prince” in verse 26b also naturally refer back to the “Prince” in verse 25? What in the grammar or context requires the reader to identify the repeated “Messiah” as the same figure, but treat the repeated “prince” as someone entirely different?






25. Know3045therefore and understand,7919 that from4480 the going forth4161 of the commandment1697to restore7725 and to build1129Jerusalem3389unto5704 the messiah4899 the prince5057 shall be seven7651weeks,7620 and threescore8346 and two8147 weeks:7620the street7339 shall be built1129again,7725 and the wall,2742 even in troublous6695times.6256

26 a.) And after310threescore8346 and two8147 weeks7620shall messiah4899be cut off,3772 but not369 for himself:
b.) and the people5971of the prince5057that shall come935shall destroy7843 the city5892 and the sanctuary;6944 and the end7093 thereof shall be with a flood,7858 and unto5704 the end7093of the war4421desolations8074 are determined.2782

Yeah, it seems to me that it refers to "the prince that shall come" in a way that readers would be expected to know who that is referring to. It refers to the prince that shall come as if that prince had already been mentioned. And there is a prince that was to come as of the time of that prophecy that had already been mentioned. So, I think it makes sense to see the reference to "the Messiah" in verse 26 as referring back to Messiah the Prince in verse 25 and "the prince that shall come" as also referring back to Messiah the Prince in verse 25.