Christians are in Rebellion against God for not following Torah

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Dan Clarkston

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This passage teaches that returning to Judaism is witchcraft.

No, someone used some hocus pocus (demonic influence) on them to deceive them in to going back to the old covenant which Jesus did away with when He established the New Covenant.

God's Word never says the old covenant was witchcraft.
If it were, God would have been in sin for delivering it to the descendants of Abraham.
 
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JimKnox

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And yer somehow you failed to provide the correct translation of the verse posted.

Weird that someone would point out a problem and then not give the solution.

Was that because you don't know, or were you late to supper and had to run?
Supper time!
"I'll be back".
 

JimKnox

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No, someone used some hocus pocus (demonic influence) on them to deceive them in to going back to the old covenant which Jesus did away with when He established the New Covenant.

God's Word never says the old covenant was witchcraft.
If it were, God would have been in sin for delivering it to the descendants of Abraham.
Incorrect.
BRB: it's supper time.
 

Dan Clarkston

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Incorrect.

OK, so you think God had the Israelites living in witchcraft all during the old covenant?

That would be accusing the Father of sinful behavior.

Sounds like you are confusing the old covenant with the modern mystical buloney the Jews are follwing in modern times.
 

Soyeong

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Galatians 3:1....is against the Judaizers who taught the same doctrine as this poster is attempting to preach.
Oh foolish Galatians, who hath BEWITCHED YOU (emphasis mine).
This passage teaches that returning to Judaism is witchcraft.
If it were me, I would warn others NOT to follow the OP.
Jesus set a perfect example for us to follow of how to practice Judaism by walking in sinless obedience to the Torah and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:6), so Galatians should not be interpreted as speaking against following Christ. In Psalm 119:142, the Torah is truth, and in John 17:17, God's word is truth so Paul asking in Galatians 3:1 who has bewitched them that they should not obey the truth should not interpreted as speaking against obeying truth.

In Romans 3:27, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, in Galatians 3:10-12, he contrasted the Book of the Law with "works of the law", and in Romans 3:31, he said that our faith upholds the Torah in contrast with saying in Galatians 3:10-12 that "works of the law" are not of faith, so that phrase does not refer to the Torah, which is why it is not of faith. So Paul speaking against receiving the Spirit as the result of obeying works of the law is not speaking against Judaism and it is absurd to suggest that it is witchcraft to follow Christ's example.
 
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JimKnox

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OK, so you think God had the Israelites living in witchcraft all during the old covenant?

That would be accusing the Father of sinful behavior.

Sounds like you are confusing the old covenant with the modern mystical buloney the Jews are follwing in modern times.
Since "somebody" dishonestly thinks my post accuses God of sin, I will not continue to speak to that "somebody".

And here I thought we could have a respectful conversation.
 

Dan Clarkston

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Since "somebody" dishonestly thinks my post accuses God of sin, I will not continue to speak to that "somebody".

And here I thought we could have a respectful conversation.

"Somebody" should not refer to the old covenant as being witchcraft then should they?

If they did not mean to say that, "somebody" would explain what they meant instead so since no explanation came forth saying otherwise then it sounds like "somebody" meant to claim the old covenant is witchcraft.

That's too bad for "somebody" to take that position.
 
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Anchorite

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Jesus set a perfect example for us to follow of how to practice Judaism by walking in sinless obedience to the Torah and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:6), so Galatians should not be interpreted as speaking against following Christ. In Psalm 119:142, the Torah is truth, and in John 17:17, God's word is truth so Paul asking in Galatians 3:1 who has bewitched them that they should not obey the truth should not interpreted as speaking against obeying truth.

In Romans 3:27, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, in Galatians 3:10-12, he contrasted the Book of the Law with "works of the law", and in Romans 3:31, he said that our faith upholds the Torah in contrast with saying in Galatians 3:10-12 that "works of the law" are not of faith, so that phrase does not refer to the Torah, which is why it is not of faith. So Paul speaking against receiving the Spirit as the result of obeying works of the law is not speaking against Judaism and it is absurd to suggest that it is witchcraft to follow Christ's example.
Works of the law absolutely refers to the Torah, the 5 Books of Moses.

We are not called to practice Judaism, but to walk in the Spirit. Judaizers are false teachers who oppose grace.

Walking by the Spirit is virtue that goes beyond the Torah law. Just hating someone is murder now. Looking on someone with lust is adultery now.

Galatians 3

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
 
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Anchorite

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The New Covenant still involves following the Torah (Jeremiah 31:33, Ezekiel 36:26-27). None of God's covenants involve switching to a different religion.
Is Christianity a different religion from Judaism?
 

Pavel Mosko

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Well you shouldn't be using that either.




Real Christians are led by the Holy Spirit Whom Jesus sent to lead His true followers in to all Truth and Jesus said God's Word is Truth.

The devil sent AI to lead all mankind in to darkness. Enjoy!

You are a "Fool" in the classic Book of Proverbs sense. All of what you said is pure conjecture, Yes, we will probably see some nefarious stuff with AI in the future, but that has been true for all tools and forms of technology that have been around good and bad. As far as the "Holy Spirit" goes you remind me of the Rick Joynor Charismatics going on "with the Two Trees in the Garden" book making any kind of academic study of the Bible into "From the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil", nevermind the bulk of what scriptures says on any given subject and what the actual Lexical definitions of the Greek and Hebrew are.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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Whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire - Matthew 5:22

Enjoy!

View attachment 87163

Yeah, I completely anticipated that response. Notice I qualified it with "the book of Proverbs", while Raca itself is a term of derision coming from the Aramaic. derived to the act of spitting at a person with contempt. I am not doing that, but I am putting you on ignore since I don't want to cast my pearls to Swine!
 
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Dan Clarkston

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Notice I qualified it with "the book of Proverbs"

Claiming to hide behind the Book of Proverbs does not mean what Jesus said is not true.


I am putting you on ignore since I don't want to cast my pearls to Swine!

You're the only swine in this conversation, you and all your AI buddies

Trying to justify following the wisdom of man rather than the wisdom of the Lord will end badly for you. Enjoy!
 

Soyeong

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Works of the law absolutely refers to the Torah, the 5 Books of Moses.
It would contradictory for the Torah to something that our faith upholds and something that is not of faith, so "works of the law" can't refer to the Torah. God is trustworthy, therefore the Torah is also trustworthy (Psalm 19:7), so the way to trust in God is by obediently trusting in God's instructions, it would be contradictory to think that we should have faith in God but not in His instructions, and the position that God is a giver of untrustworthy instructions that are not of faith denies the trustworthiness and faithfulness of God.

We are not called to practice Judaism, but to walk in the Spirit.
God has not commanded anything that is not in accordance with walking in the Spirit, but rather God's character traits are the fruits of the Spirit and the purpose of the Torah is to teach us how to embody God's character traits, which is why the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey it (Ezekiel 36:26-27). In Romans 8:4-7, Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Torah.

Judaizers are false teachers who oppose grace.
Paul's problem with the Judaizers was not that they were teaching Gentiles how to follow Christ's example of obedience to the Torah but that they were wanting to require Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved. In Psalm 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Torah, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith, never as the result of circumcision.

Walking by the Spirit is virtue that goes beyond the Torah law. Just hating someone is murder now. Looking on someone with lust is adultery now.
We are commanded not to hate our brother (Leviticus 19:17) and if we correct understand what is being commanded by the 7th and 10th Commandments against committing adultery and coveting in our hearts, then we won't look at a married woman with lust in our hearts, so Jesus was not teaching anything that was brand new.

Galatians 3

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
According to Deuteronomy 27-30, the way to be blessed is by relying on the Book of the Law while the way to be cursed is by not relying on it, so Galatians 3:10 should not be interpreted as Paul quoting from that passage in order to support a point that is arguing against that passage. Rather, the fact that cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything in the Book of the Law straightforwardly means that we should continue to do everything in the Book of the Law, which is why everyone who relies on "works of the law" instead comes under that curse.

Paul associated a quote from Habakkuk 2:4 that the righteous shall live by fait with a quote from Leviticus 18:5 that the one who obeys the Torah shall attain life by it, so the righteous who are living by faith are the same as those who are living in obedience to the the Torah. The context of Habakkuk 2:4 does not present the righteous living by faith as being a way of living that is an alternative to living in obedience to God. In Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose hearts are the Torah, and in 1 John 3:4-7, everyone who is a doer of righteous works in obedience to the Torah is righteous, so the righteous living by faith that not refer to an alternative way of living that is not in obedience to it.
 

Soyeong

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Is Christianity a different religion from Judaism?
Some people treat Christianity as if Jesus had come to start a different religion, but he came as the Jewish Messiah of Judaism in fulfillment of Jewish prophecy and he spent his ministry teaching his followers how to practice Jesus by setting a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Torah. In Acts 21:20, they were rejoicing that ten of thousands of Jews were coming to faith in Jesus who were all zealot for the Torah, which is in accordance with Titus 2:11-13, where Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so Jews coming to faith in Jesus were not ceasing to practice Judaism but were becoming zealous for it. This means that there was period of time between the resurrection of Jesus and the inclusion of Gentiles in Acts 10 that is estimated to be around 7-15 years during which all Christians were Torah observant Jews and that Christianity at its origin was the sect of Judaism that recognized Jesus as the Messiah. In Acts 24:14, Paul testified that according to The Way, which they call a sect, he continued to worship the God of their fathers, believing everything laid down by the Torah and written in the Prophets, and the religion of which The Way is a sect is Judaism. However, Christianity today has become a separate religion that is opposed to following Christ's example of obedience to the Torah.
 
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Anchorite

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Some people treat Christianity as if Jesus had come to start a different religion …. However, Christianity today has become a separate religion that is opposed to following Christ's example of obedience to the Torah.
Galatians 5

1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
 

Soyeong

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Galatians 5

1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
If God had saved the Israelites out of bond in Egypt in order to put them under bondage to the Torah, then it would be for bondage that God sets us free, however, Galatians 5:1 says that it is for freedom that God sets us free, so you are not correctly identifying what Paul was speaking against. In Psalm 119:142, the Torah is truth, and in John 8:31-36, it is the transgression of the Torah that puts us into bondage while the truth sets us free.

2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
A servant of God can speak against obeying what God has commanded for an incorrect reason without speaking against obeying what God has commanded. If Paul had been speaking against circumcision for any reason, then Galatians 5:2 would mean that he caused Christ to be of no value to Timothy when he had him circumcised and Christ is of no value to roughly 70% of the men in the US. In Acts 15:1, men from Judea were wanting to require Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved, however, that was never the reason for why God commanded circumcision, so the Jerusalem Council upheld the Torah by correctly ruling against requiring circumcision for an incorrect reason. In Exodus 12:48, God commanded for Gentiles to become circumcised in order to eat of the Passover lamb, so the Jerusalem Council should not be interpreted as ruling against Gentiles correctly obeying what God has commanded as if they had the authority to countermand God.

3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
I have not spoke in favor of obeying either the Torah or "works of the law" in order to become righteous as the result. God wanted His children to repent and to return to obedience to the Torah all throughout the Bible and even Christ began his ministry with that Gospel message (Matthew 4:15-23), so it would be absurd to interpret this as Paul warning us against obeying God and warning that we will be cut off from Christ if we repent and believe the Gospel of Christ. It would also be absurd to interpret Psalm 119:29-30 as if he wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him how to fall from grace, so again you are not correctly identifying what Paul was speaking against.

5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
The issue of the way to become righteous is different from the issue of what describes the behavior of the righteous. The only way to become righteous is through faith but what it means to be righteous is to be a doer of righteous works in obedience to the Torah (1 John 3:4-7, Isaiah 51:7). The Torah was never given as a way or earning our righteousness even as the result of having perfect obedience to it (Romans 4:1-5), but rather it was given to describe the behavior of the righteous as it describes the behavior of Christ, so it is what we get to experience by being given the gift of righteousness through faith. Paul also affirmed in Roman 2:13 that only the doers of the Torah will be declared righteous, so there is a reason why our righteousness requires us to choose to be doers of the Torah other than in order to earn it as the result, namely faith insofar as the faith by which we are declared righteous apart from works also upholds the Torah (Romans 3:28-31).

6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
In 1 Corinthian 7:19, Paul said that circumcision counts for nothing and that what matters is obeying the commandments, so he equated obeying God's commandments with faith working through love. In Matthew 23:23, faith is one of the weightier matters of the Torah, and in Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus summarized the Torah as being about how to love. Paul also said that circumcision has much value in every way (Romans 3:1-2) and that circumcision conditionally has value if we obey the Torah (Romans 2:25), so the value of circumcision is entirely derived from our obedience to God's commandments. Someone being physically circumcised is a sign of them having a circumcised heart, which is evident by their obedience to the Torah, so physical circumcision only has value insofar as what it is a sign of is true.
 
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