How so? Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Torah by word and by example, so he is the man of lawfulness, which is in contrast with the Antichrist, who is the man of lawlessness (2 Thessalonians 2:3).
Christians are in Rebellion against God for not following Torah
- Thread starter Pavel Mosko
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You twist verses about faith and grace into commands to obey the Torah’s works of law.
You bear false witness of me when you claim I am not correctly identifying things, for I am simply quoting sections of Galatians, which completely debunk your Judaizing Hebrew Roots heresy.
We are under a new covenant, not the old covenant, which was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ.
Walking by the Spirit ethically and spiritually goes far beyond the Mosaic laws in the Torah.
In Psalm 119:29-30, it says that he wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Torah and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so what grounds do you have for accusing me of twisting that? In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, and in 1 Kings 2:1-3, God taught how to walk in His way through the Torah. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments.
Also what justification do you have for insisting that the phrase "works of the law" refers to the Torah, especially the Paul contrasted it with the Torah?
While you did quote a section from Galatians, you are also interpreting it as being contrary to my position, which is why I made the case for why I think that you are not correctly identifying what Paul was speaking against, but if you disagree then please make the case for it and explain why you think that what I said is wrong. The position that followers of Christ should follow his example is neither Judaizing, nor Hebrew Roots, nor heresy.
I agree and have not said anything otherwise.
Please quote where the Bible says that. In Romans 8:4-7, Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Torah. In Galatians 5:16-23, Paul contrasted the desires of the flesh with the desires of the Spirit and everything that he listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also agains the Torah while all of the fruits of the Spirit are aspects of God's character traits that the Torah was given in order to teach us how to embody. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3), which he embodied through his works by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in the Spirit/how to walk in obedience to the Torah.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Christ came to set us FREE from the Law
In order for us to be FREE from the Law a man had to fulfill the Law unto God.
Christ is the only man who fulfilled the Law unto God = no one else could, not Moses, not Samuel, not Daniel = no one but Christ
Torah points to Christ as the Law Giver = Christ is SHILOH who came from the lineage of Judah and to Christ is our obedience
The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh comes;
and to Him is the obedience of the peoples. - Genesis 49:10
Shiloh has come = Christ is now the Lawgiver = John 14:21
He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me.
And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”
Going backwards to the law means you are BREAKING Torah Commandment to follow MESSIAH = this is antichrist
The Apostle John speaks of the commandments of loving and obeying Christ
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate before the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.
He Himself is the atoning sacrificea for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
By this we can be sure that we have come to know Him: if we keep His commandments. If anyone says, “I know Him,” but does not keep His commandments, he is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone keeps His word, the love of God has been truly perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him: Whoever claims to abide in Him must walk as Jesus walked.
Here is the commandment of Christ that Torah commands = Luke 18:18-23
Now a certain ruler asked Him, saying, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.
You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery,’ ‘Do not murder,’ ‘Do not steal,’ ‘Do not bear false witness,’ ‘Honor your father and your mother.’ ”
And he said, “All these things I have kept from my youth.”
So when Jesus heard these things, He said to him, “You still lack one thing. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
But when he heard this, he became very sorrowful, for he was very rich.
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Jesus did not come to free us from the law in order to become doers of what it reveals to be sin, but rather said that he came to call sinners to repentance (Luke 5:32). In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to free us from the Law of Moses, but rather he gave himself to free us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in what he accomplished through the cross is by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Law of Moses (Acts 21:20) while the way to reject what he accomplished would be by returning the lawlessness that he gave himself to free us from.
Nowhere does the Bible state that if someone fulfills the law, then they free all of us from the law. In Matthew 5:17-19, Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law in contrast with saying that he came not to abolish it and he warned against relaxing even the least part of it, so you should not interpret Jesus fulfilling the law as meaning no, he really came to abolish and relax it.
According to Galatians 5:14, anyone who has loved their neighbor has fulfilled the entire law, so it refers to something that countless people have done and should continue to do in perpetuity, not to something unique that Jesus did. In Galatians 6:2, bearing one another's burdens fulfills the Law of Christ, yet you do not consistently interpret that as freeing us from the Law of Christ.
The way to obey Christ is not by refusing to obey the law that he gave.
In John 14:24, Jesus said if we love him, then we will obey his teachings and that his teachings are not his own but that of the Father, so he did not teach his own set of commands and this does not support departing from what the Father taught. Likewise, in John 15:10, Jesus used a parallel statement to equate his commandments with those of the Father.
The way to love God is by obeying His character traits, such as the way to love justice is by being a doer of justice, the way to love holiness is by being a doer of His instructions for how to be holy as He is holy, and so forth. In other words, the goal of everything that God has commanded is to teach us how to love different aspect of His character traits, which is why the Bible repeatedly states in both the OT and the NT that the way to love God is by obeying His commandments. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3), which he embodied through his works by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Torah, so the way to love the Father is exactly the same as the way to love the Son.
The way to know God is also by embodying His character traits in obedience to the Torah, so the way to know the Father is exactly the same as the way to know the Son.
It is contradictory to follow Jesus instead of following his example of obedience to the Torah.
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Jesus said the greatest commandment is to love God with all you are, and the second is like it, love others as you love yourself. Jesus said these two commandments are the summation of the Law, and that everything is in these two commandments.
Jesus then taught His disciples, "A new commandment I give to you, that you love others as I have loved you."
Loving others as you love yourself is the second highest command in the Law, but Jesus raised the bar. Love others as Jesus loves us. Not the same way that I love others, but as Jesus loves me.
Would you agree that the love Jesus has for me is a higher love than what I have for others? Do you see how in this simple commandment Jesus sublimated the entire covenant of Law as being less than this command?
This is why John would be able to write that we are to keep Jesus' commands, and he names them, believe in Jesus, and love others.
Is it rather your preference to not have to love as Jesus loves us, and instead just keep the list of rules that were given to Israel?
Much love!
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Something is not from the spirit of the Antichrist just because you disagree with it.
The Hebrew word “yada” refers to intimate relationships/knowledge gained by experience, such as with Genesis 4:1 where Adam knew (yada) Eve, she conceived, and gave birth to Cain. God’s way is the way to know (yada) Him and Jesus by having the experience of embodying His character traits, which is the narrow way to eternal life (John 17:3). For example, in Genesis 18:19, God knew (yada) Abraham that he would teach his children and those of His household to walk in His way by being doers of righteousness and justice that the Lord might bring to him all that He has promised. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know (yada) Him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the Torah s to graciously teach us how to know God and Jesus by walking in His way, which is His gift of eternal life.
There is no point of you accusing me of twisting Scripture in lieu of you making that that I am doing that.
The Torah is God’s Word (Deuteronomy 5:31-33) and Jesus is God’s Word made flesh, so everything that is true about Jesus is also true about the Torah insofar as he is the embodiment of it. The Torah is the way (1 Kings 2:1-3), the truth (Psalms 119:142), and the life (Deuteronomy 32:46-47), and the way to know the Father (Exodus 33:13), and Jesus embodied the Torah through his works, so he is the way, the truth, and the life, and the way to know the Father (John 14:6-11).
The reason why the commandments to love God and our neighbor are the greatest two commandments is because they are inclusive of all of the other commandments, which is why Jesus said that all of the other commandments hang on them (Matthew 22:36-40), so love does not go beyond what Gos has commanded. For example, if someone thought they they only need to love God and their neighbor, so they did not need to obey the laws against idolatry and kidnapping, then they would have an incomplete understanding of what it means to love God and their neighbor and the same is true for everything else commanded in the Torah.
The command to love our neighbor can be found in Leviticus 19:18, so there is nothing brand new about that command, but what is new about it is the example by which we are to love our neighbor. Indeed, the Greek word uses refers to newness with respect to quality rater than with respect to time:
3501 /néos ("new on the scene") suggests something "new in time" – in contrast to its near-synonym (2537 /kainós, "new in quality").
In order to correctly know how to obey the command to love our neighbors as ourselves we need to know how we should love ourselves and the answer to that is that we should love ourselves as Jesus loves us, which is therefore also how we should love our neighbor. So Jesus was not sinning in violation of Deuteronomy 4:2 by adding a brand new law, but rather he was fulfilling it by teaching us how to correctly obey it. Jesus summarized the Torah as being about how to love God and our neighbor, so he expressed his love though embodying it and that is also the way that we are to express our love.
Always show the passage. When you don't it let's me know it doesn't say what you are presenting.
Deuteronomy 4:2
You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God that I command you.God said that men are not to add to His word, but not that He could not add to it. If that were the case, nothing after Deuteronomy would have been written. So then you are misapplying this passage.
John 13:34 KJV
34) A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Much love!
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
i love Torah Truth, for it magnifies our need for a Savior = and the Savior is CHRIST
Your statements are contrary to CHRIST and His commandments
What you are doing is false teaching.
You commit lawlessness by perverting the Truth of the Gospel by elevating Torah to the same level as CHRIST.
The Torah was given as a Tutor to brings us to CHRIST = the GREATER is CHRIST
The HOLY SPIRIT Says we who are in CHRIST are no longer under the tutorship of the law = Galatians 3:19-25
What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions,
till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made;
and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.
Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.
Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not!
For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.
But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
@Soyeong do you want to stand in Judgment for speaking against the Holy Spirit and deceiving souls by turning them away from CHRIST back to the law?
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Christians are in Rebellion against God for not following Torah
I guess that includes Buddhist, Hindus, Animists, Gays and religious and non religious people in general etc..... including Jews. Definitely not warmongers.
In Matthew 1:21, Jesus saves us from our sin, and in Romans 3:20, it is by the Torah that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so Jesus graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of it is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being a doer of it. So the Torah does not just reveal our need for a Savior but also teaches us the way that he is saving us. It is contradictory for someone to think that they need salvation from sin while also thinking that they have no obligation to refrain from doing what God has revealed to be sin through the Torah.
I have not said anything contrary to Christ and his commandments
If you remain unable to interact with what I said to show how it is a false teaching, then that reinforces my position.
There is a direct connection between God's Word and God's Word made flesh insofar as he is the embodiment of God's word, so there is nothing about this that is committing lawlessness by perverting the truth of the Gospel. At this point you're just throwing out random accusations and hoping one of them will stick.
God's Word brings us to God's Word made flesh because he is the embodiment of it and it was given in order to teach us how to know Him through following his example of embodying it, but God's Word does not bring us to him so that we can then reject all that he is and go back to being doers of what it reveals to be wickedness. Jesus did not come with the God's message to stop repenting because God's Word has ended now that he has come and we have been freed to become doers of what it reveals to be wickedness, but rather he came with the message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand (Matthew 4:15-23), which is in accordance with him being sent as the promised seed to bless us by turning us from our wickedness (Acts 3:25-26). Someone who disregarded everything that their tutor taught them after they left would be missing the whole point of a tutor.
I do not hold the position that reason why we should obey the Torah is in order to earn our eternal life or righteousness as the result. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in what he accomplished through the cross is by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Torah (Acts 21:20), so the way to treat Christ as though he died for nothing would be by returning to the lawlessness that he gave himself tor redeem us from.
I do not speak against the Holy Spirit. It is contradictory to turn away from God's Word made flesh back to God's Word. In Roman 8:4-7, Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Torah.
I cite verses to support what say because I am inviting people to look them up. In Galatians 4:4, Jesus was born under the Torah, and in Luke 2:21, Jesus was circumcised on the 8th day as a member of the Mosaic Covenant, so he was obligated to obey obey it, and the fact that he was sinless means that he never broke it. If Jesus had tried making changes to the law, then that would mean that he was not God. If Jesus could change what sin is on whim, then him being sinless would have no significance whatsoever.
God's character traits are eternal, so everything that God's covenants teach us about how to know God through embodying His character traits is eternal and cumulatively valid. For example, God's righteousness is eternal (Psalm 119:142), therefore all of God's righteous laws are also eternal (Psalm 119:160), but if Jesus could change the on whim, then they would not be eternal and God would not be the same today, yesterday, and forever.
If Jesus had given a brand new commandment, then he would have sinned in violation of Deuteronomy 4:2 and disqualified himself as being our Savior, but again the Greek word used refers to newness with respect to quality rather than with respect to time, so he was not adding a brand new commandment. It refers to add to or or subtracting from the Law of Moses, not to adding other books of Scripture.
The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob has the character traits that the Law of Moses was given in order to teach us how to embody, which is why Deuteronomy 13 associates false prophets who teach against obeying the Law of Moses with those who are teaching to follow other gods.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
This topic gets skewed because of the confusion of the historical timeline of Christianity. Those that are not educated in the study of history have a tendency to lump it all together. You have to consider the circumstances and events in each time period.
What Yeshua said was during the Old Covenant......The New Covenant started when He passed on the cross.
Yeshua followed the Mosaic Law and taught the Jews and His Apostles to follow the Mosaic Law.
I say "follow the Mosaic Law" but during the time of His ministry they could not follow all of the 613 Mosaic Laws because were subjugated by the Romans.
After Yeshua's resurrection the twelve Apostles followed the Mosaic Law......Their sect were Jewish-Christians. Those Jews that converted to Christianity were Jewish-Christians and they could still practice polygamy and concubinage and worshipped in the Temple and sacrificed animals on the Saturday Jewish Sabbath. And the process of the Letter of Divorcement was still practiced for legitimate divorces.
Then came the Apostle Paul's ministry and he started to convert Pagans, these were Gentile-Christians and the Jewish-Christians resented including Pagans into Christianity. So they harassed Paul and his ministry until Paul and Peter and Barnabus went to Jerusalem to meet with James who was the leader of the Jewish-Christians and James issued a letter to stop the harassment and issued a letter stating the common sense requirements for Pagans to convert to Christianity. He did not call for the Gentile-Christians to follow the Mosaic Law and or be circumcised.
The Jewish-Christians sect more or less died out shortly after the destruction of the Temple in the 1st century. The Gentile-Christians went on to take the helm of Christianity. They selected Sunday the day of Yeshua's resurrection as their day of worship. The Pagans-the Gentile-Christians did not practice polygamy or concubinage so they did not bring that into Christianity. But some Christians did practice polygamy and the Jews that Paul converted that had multiple wives were not required to divorce all but one. But Paul made the stipulation that in order to be a "church" leader (Leader of a congregation) they had to be the husband of only one wife.
The Gentile-Christians brought in the custom of wedding ceremonies but they were voluntary. It wasn't until the 16th century that the Protestant made church wedding ceremonies a requirement to be married.
As far as the Mosaic Law, Paul taught that Christians need not follow the Law. This is absolutely clear.
2nd Corinthians 3:7-8 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?
Galatians 3:12 “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us.....”
Galatians 3:1-5 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?
Galatians 5:4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.
1st Corinthians 9:20 “And to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law, through not being myself under the Law, that I might win those who are under the Law;”
Romans 4:15 “for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, neither is there violation.”
Romans 6:14 “For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.”
Romans 6:15 “What then? Are we to sin because we are not under the Law but under grace?”
Romans 8:2 “For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath me free from the law of sin and death.”
Romans 7:6 “But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.”
Romans 7:8 “But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.”
2nd Corinthians 3:3 “being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone, but on tablets of human hearts.”
Galatians 4:21 “Tell me, you who want to be under the law, do you not listen to the law?”
Galatians 3:10 “For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.”
Galatians 3:24-25 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Galatians 5:18 “But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.”
Galatians 2:16 “Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.”
Galatians 2:21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.
Hebrews 8:13 “In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.”
Romans 3:20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
What Yeshua said was during the Old Covenant......The New Covenant started when He passed on the cross.
Yeshua followed the Mosaic Law and taught the Jews and His Apostles to follow the Mosaic Law.
I say "follow the Mosaic Law" but during the time of His ministry they could not follow all of the 613 Mosaic Laws because were subjugated by the Romans.
After Yeshua's resurrection the twelve Apostles followed the Mosaic Law......Their sect were Jewish-Christians. Those Jews that converted to Christianity were Jewish-Christians and they could still practice polygamy and concubinage and worshipped in the Temple and sacrificed animals on the Saturday Jewish Sabbath. And the process of the Letter of Divorcement was still practiced for legitimate divorces.
Then came the Apostle Paul's ministry and he started to convert Pagans, these were Gentile-Christians and the Jewish-Christians resented including Pagans into Christianity. So they harassed Paul and his ministry until Paul and Peter and Barnabus went to Jerusalem to meet with James who was the leader of the Jewish-Christians and James issued a letter to stop the harassment and issued a letter stating the common sense requirements for Pagans to convert to Christianity. He did not call for the Gentile-Christians to follow the Mosaic Law and or be circumcised.
The Jewish-Christians sect more or less died out shortly after the destruction of the Temple in the 1st century. The Gentile-Christians went on to take the helm of Christianity. They selected Sunday the day of Yeshua's resurrection as their day of worship. The Pagans-the Gentile-Christians did not practice polygamy or concubinage so they did not bring that into Christianity. But some Christians did practice polygamy and the Jews that Paul converted that had multiple wives were not required to divorce all but one. But Paul made the stipulation that in order to be a "church" leader (Leader of a congregation) they had to be the husband of only one wife.
The Gentile-Christians brought in the custom of wedding ceremonies but they were voluntary. It wasn't until the 16th century that the Protestant made church wedding ceremonies a requirement to be married.
As far as the Mosaic Law, Paul taught that Christians need not follow the Law. This is absolutely clear.
2nd Corinthians 3:7-8 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?
Galatians 3:12 “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us.....”
Galatians 3:1-5 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?
Galatians 5:4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.
1st Corinthians 9:20 “And to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law, through not being myself under the Law, that I might win those who are under the Law;”
Romans 4:15 “for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, neither is there violation.”
Romans 6:14 “For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.”
Romans 6:15 “What then? Are we to sin because we are not under the Law but under grace?”
Romans 8:2 “For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath me free from the law of sin and death.”
Romans 7:6 “But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.”
Romans 7:8 “But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.”
2nd Corinthians 3:3 “being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone, but on tablets of human hearts.”
Galatians 4:21 “Tell me, you who want to be under the law, do you not listen to the law?”
Galatians 3:10 “For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.”
Galatians 3:24-25 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Galatians 5:18 “But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.”
Galatians 2:16 “Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.”
Galatians 2:21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.
Hebrews 8:13 “In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.”
Romans 3:20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
The new covenant ethics goes beyond the Mosaic laws of the Torah.
Walking in the Spirit is a deeper reality than obeying the surface commands of the Torah.
Galatians 5 JB Phillips
19-21 The activities of the lower nature are obvious. Here is a list: sexual immorality, impurity of mind, sensuality, worship of false gods, witchcraft, hatred, quarrelling, jealousy, bad temper, rivalry, factions, party-spirit, envy, drunkenness, orgies and things like that. I solemnly assure you, as I did before, that those who indulge in such things will never inherit God’s kingdom.
22-25 The Spirit however, produces in human life fruits such as these: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, fidelity, tolerance and self-control—and no law exists against any of them. Those who belong to Christ have crucified their old nature with all that it loved and lusted for. If our lives are centred in the Spirit, let us be guided by the Spirit.
Walking in the Spirit is a deeper reality than obeying the surface commands of the Torah.
Galatians 5 JB Phillips
19-21 The activities of the lower nature are obvious. Here is a list: sexual immorality, impurity of mind, sensuality, worship of false gods, witchcraft, hatred, quarrelling, jealousy, bad temper, rivalry, factions, party-spirit, envy, drunkenness, orgies and things like that. I solemnly assure you, as I did before, that those who indulge in such things will never inherit God’s kingdom.
22-25 The Spirit however, produces in human life fruits such as these: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, fidelity, tolerance and self-control—and no law exists against any of them. Those who belong to Christ have crucified their old nature with all that it loved and lusted for. If our lives are centred in the Spirit, let us be guided by the Spirit.
God has not commanded anything that is not in accordance with walking in the Spirit, but rather God's character traits are the fruits of the Spirit and the Torah was given in order to teach us how to embody His character traits, which is why the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey it (Ezekiel 36:26-27). In Romans 8:4-7, Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Torah.
In Galatians 5:16-23, Paul contrasted the desires of the flesh with the desires of the Spirit and everything that he listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the Torah while all of the fruits of the Spirit are aspects of God's character traits that the Torah was given in order to teach us how to embody. For example, love is one of the fruits of the Spirit and all of the 613 laws of the Torah were given in order to teach us how to love God and our neighbor, so the Spirit leading us to love is not leading us to do something that is not in accordance with the Torah. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3), which he embodied through his works by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in the Spirit/how to walk in obedience to the Torah, so the ethics that he taught were all in accordance with he Torah.
It would be overwhelming to us for God to exhaustively teach us how to embody His character traits in every possible situation, so the point is for to abstract it from a limited set of instructions that all have them in common. If we correctly understand a character trait, then it will lead us to take actions that embody that trait that are in accordance with the Torah even in situation that the Torah does not directly address, but correctly understanding a character trait will never lead us away from obeying the instructions that God gave to teach us how to embody that trait. For example, if someone thought that they understood what it means to love God and our neighbor, so they did not need to refrain from committing idolatry or favoritism, then they would have an incomplete understanding of what it means to love God and our neighbor, and same is true for everything else commanded in the Torah.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
But you are as Romans 8:1-3 declares.
there is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,
The HOLY SPIRIT Says that both the law and the flesh were condemned on the Cross = Colossians 2:11-15
In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.
A person turns away from God's Word when they turn back to the law, which cannot grant Salvation = Hebrews 9:11-15
But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Here you go again adding words to the Holy Spirit by injecting "enemies of God who refuse to submit to Torah"
However, i AGREE that if a person does not submit to Torah, then they have not received CHRIST for forgiveness of sins.
the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Paul equates the law with the flesh = weak and unable to produce the "righteous requirement of the law"
Only thru the Holy Spirit can we please God by walking, not in the law, but in the Spirit which is in CHRIST
The NT Law of CHRIST = Romans 8:12-17
Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”
The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.
Conclusion: 20 Times the Spirit is spoken of in Romans chapter 8 as the Way the Truth and the Life
Whereas the OT law is likened to the weakness of the flesh, unable for us to please God in.
Part 1/2
In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the 613 laws of the Torah was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to them is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom/Grace. There would be no point in spreading the Gospel as a light to the Gentiles if Gentiles had no need to repent from dong what the Torah reveals to be sin. Jesu also said that man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of God and then commissioned his disciples to teach to the nations everything that he taught them (Matthew 28:16-20), so Jesus did not intended for what he spent his ministry teaching to only be for Jews. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for dong good works, so the way to believe in the Gospel that he spent his ministry teaching and accomplished through the cross is by repenting and becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Torah while the way to reject everything that he accomplished would be by returning to the lawlessness that he gave himself to redeem us from.
The fact that there are parts of the Torah that we can't currently follow does not mean that we should not follow the parts that we can follow.
The issue that the Jerusalem Council was debating was not whether followers of Christ should follow Christ but whether salvation is by grace (Acts 15:11) or by circumcision (Acts 15:1). In Acts 15:6-7, Peter argued that Gentiles had heard and believed the Gospel message, which calls for us tor repent from our disobedience to the Torah (Matthew 4:15-23), so he was agreeing with the Pharisees from among the believers about Gentiles obeying the Torah (Acts 15:5) and disagreeing with the men from Judea (Acts 15:1). In Ezekiel 36:26-27, God will take away our hearts of stone, give us hearts of flesh, and send His Spirit to lead to obey the Torah, which is in accordance with what Peter argued in Acts 15:8-9 in regard Gentiles receiving the Spirit and having their hearts cleansed, so again he was agreeing with the Pharisees. In Psalm 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Torah and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith, which is in accordance with what Peter argued in Acts 15:10-11 that Gentiles are saved by grace just as we are, so he came not firmly on the side of the Pharisees.
While I agree that everything that Jesus spent his ministry teaching by word and by example was in regard to how to walk in obedience to the Torah under the Mosaic Covenant, the reason why Jesus did established the New Covenant was not for the purpose of nullifying anything that he spent his ministry teaching or so that we could continue to have the same lawlessness that causes it to be needed in the first place, but rather the New Covenant still involves following the Torah (Jeremiah 31:33, Ezekiel 36:26-27).
In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the 613 laws of the Torah was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to them is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom/Grace. There would be no point in spreading the Gospel as a light to the Gentiles if Gentiles had no need to repent from dong what the Torah reveals to be sin. Jesu also said that man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of God and then commissioned his disciples to teach to the nations everything that he taught them (Matthew 28:16-20), so Jesus did not intended for what he spent his ministry teaching to only be for Jews. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for dong good works, so the way to believe in the Gospel that he spent his ministry teaching and accomplished through the cross is by repenting and becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Torah while the way to reject everything that he accomplished would be by returning to the lawlessness that he gave himself to redeem us from.
The fact that there are parts of the Torah that we can't currently follow does not mean that we should not follow the parts that we can follow.
In Isaiah 45:17, it says that all Israel shall be saved, which has led some to hold the position Jews are saved by simply by being Jews and that Gentiles need to become Jews in order to become saved, which has nothing to do with resenting or harassing Gentiles. The way to handle the sacred meal that was only done with Jews was also a major issue.
The issue that the Jerusalem Council was debating was not whether followers of Christ should follow Christ but whether salvation is by grace (Acts 15:11) or by circumcision (Acts 15:1). In Acts 15:6-7, Peter argued that Gentiles had heard and believed the Gospel message, which calls for us tor repent from our disobedience to the Torah (Matthew 4:15-23), so he was agreeing with the Pharisees from among the believers about Gentiles obeying the Torah (Acts 15:5) and disagreeing with the men from Judea (Acts 15:1). In Ezekiel 36:26-27, God will take away our hearts of stone, give us hearts of flesh, and send His Spirit to lead to obey the Torah, which is in accordance with what Peter argued in Acts 15:8-9 in regard Gentiles receiving the Spirit and having their hearts cleansed, so again he was agreeing with the Pharisees. In Psalm 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Torah and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith, which is in accordance with what Peter argued in Acts 15:10-11 that Gentiles are saved by grace just as we are, so he came not firmly on the side of the Pharisees.
Some treat Christianity as if Jesus had come to start his own religion, but Jesus came as the Jewish Messiah of Judaism in fulfillment of Jewish prophecy and he spent his ministry teaching his followers how to practice Judaism by setting a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Torah. In Acts 21:20, they were rejoicing that tens of thousands of Jews were coming to faith in Jesus who were all zealous for the Torah, which is in accordance with Titus 2:14, so Jews coming to faith in Jesus were not ceasing to practice Judaism but were becoming zealous for it. This means that there was a period of time between the resurrection of Jesus and the inclusion of Gentiles that is estimated to be around 7-15 years, during which all Christians were Torah observant Jews and that Christianity at its origin was the sect of Judaism that recognized Jesus as the Messiah. Christianity has long since been overrun by Gentiles who turned into a separate religion that is opposed to following Christ's example of obedience to the Torah.
Part 2/2
According to Deuteronomy 13, the way that God instructed to recognize that someone is a false prophet is if they speak against obeying the Torah, so if you agree that Paul was a servant of God, then you should arguing against your position that he spoke against obeying it, but if you think that Paul spoke against obeying it, then you should be arguing against your position that he was a servant of God, so pick which way you want to argue, but either way followers of Christ should follow his example of obedience to the Torah.
The fact that the Torah is a ministry of death for those who refuse to submit to it is not a very good reason for refusing to submit to it.
God did not give the Torah as a curse but in order to teach us how to be blessed. In Deuteronomy 27-30, it describes the blessing of lawfulness and the curse of lawlessness, so Jesus redeeming us from the curse of the law is setting us free to enjoy the blessing of the law. In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to redeem us from the Torah but in order to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in what he accomplished through the cross is by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Torah (Acts 21:20). The reason why Jesus went to the cross was not to free us to become doers of what the Torah reveals to be sin, but just the opposite.
The Torah was not given as a way to receive the Spirit as the result of our obedience, but that does not mean that we are not obligated to obey it for the reasons for which it was given. Furthermore, the fact that we can't received the Spirit as the result of obeying the Torah makes it that much more true that we can't receive it as the result of obeying "works of the law". The Torah is truth (Psalm 119:142) and God's Word is truth (John 17:3), so Paul criticizing the Galatians for turning away from obeying the truth should not be interpreted as criticizing them for obeying truth.
God wanted His children to repent and to return to obedience to the Torah all throughout the Bible and even Christ began his ministry with that Gospel message, so it would be absurd to interpret Galatians 5:4 as Paul warning us against obeying God and warning that we will be cut off from Christ if we repent and believe the Gospel of Christ.
In 1 Corinthian 9:21, Paul used a parallel statement to equate not being outside the Law of God with being under the Law of Christ.
The fact that the Torah brings wrath for disobeying it is not a very good reason to disobey it.
Paul spoke about the Torah as being something that is the good that he wanted to do in contrast with describing the law of sin as being something that was causing him not to do the good that he wanted to do. In Romans 6:14, Paul described the law that we are not under as being a law where sin was our master, which is clearly not describing something that is the good that he wanted to do, but rather that is the role of the law of sin. In Romans 6:15, being under grace does not mean that we are permitted to sin, and it is by the Torah that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so we are still under it.
In Romans 7:25-8:2, Paul said that he served the Torah with his mind in contrast with serving the law of sin with his flesh, so he equated the Torah with the Law of the Spirit and the law of sin and death does not refer to the Law of God. In Romans 8:3-7, Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Torah. Those are strong words for someone who supposedly is speaking against followers of Christ following his example of obedience to the Torah.
In Romans 7:22-23, Paul said that he delighted in obeying the Torah in contrast saying that the law of sin held him captive, so Romans 7:6 saying that we have been released from a law that held us captive should not be interpreted as speaking about Paul being released from the law that he delighted in obeying, but rather it is the law of sin that held him captive. It is the law of sin that takes the opportunity to through the Torah to produce sin and sin would be dead apart from the law of sin stirring up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death.
Changing the medium upon which the Torah is written from our stone to our hearts does not change the content of what it instructs us to do. For example, the command against committing idolatry written on stone has the same content as the command against committing adultery written on our hearts.
If God freed the Israelites out of bondage in Egypt in order to put them under bondage to the Torah, then it would be for bondage that God sets us free, however, Galatians 5:1 says that it is for freedom that God set us free. The Torah is truth (Psalm 119:142) and it is the transgression of the Torah that puts us into bondage while the truth sets us free (John 8:31-36). Moreover, the Torah came through the line of the free woman, not the line of the bondswoman, so that should influence how you interpret Galatians 4.
According to Deuteronomy 27-30, the way to be blessed is by relying on the Book of the Law while the way to be cursed is by not relying on it, so Galatians 3:10 should not be interpreted as Paul quoting from that passage in order to support a point that is arguing the opposite of that passage. Rather, the fact that cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law straightforwardly means that we should abridge by all things written in the Book of the Law, which is why everyone who relies on "works of the law" instead comes under that curse.
God's Word leads us to God's Word made flesh because he is the embodiment of it and it was given in order to teach us how to know him through following his example of embodying it, but the reason why it leads us to him is not so that we can then reject all that he is and go back to being doers of what it reveals to be wickedness. Someone who disregarded everything that their tutor taught them would be missing the whole point of a tutor.
In light of Romans 8:2-7, Galatians 5:18 is clear referring to not being under the law of sin when we are led by the Spirit, not the Torah. The desires of the flesh causing us not to do the good that we want to do is how Paul described his struggle with the law of sin.
The Torah was not given as a way to earning our justification as the result of our obedience, but that does not mean that we are not obligated to obey it for the reasons for which it was given. Furthermore, the fact that we can't earn our justification as the result of obeying the Torah makes it that much more true that we can't earn it as the result of obeying "works of the law". Returning to the lawlessness that Christ gave himself to redeem us from would also mean that he died for nothing.
In Hebrews 8:10, the New Covenant still involves following the Torah.
If you agree that it is by the Torah that we have knowledge of what sin is and that we should refrain from doing what God has revealed to be sin, then you should be arguing in favor of obeying the Torah.
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