The same Gospel that Jesus taught during his ministry to the Jews first also went out to the Gentiles, so that is not a change.
Everything that I Said in response to that post makes it all clear.
Christians are in Rebellion against God for not following Torah
- Thread starter Pavel Mosko
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
God is sovereign, so we are all under His law and are obligated to refrain from doing what He has revealed to be sin regardless of whether or not we seek to be under it. I would think that anyone who affirmed that the Torah is accurately described in Psalm 19:7-11 would jump at the opportunity to get to experience being a doer of it regardless of whether or not they are unThder it.
The only way to attain a character trait is through faith apart from being required to have first done enough works in order to earn it as the result, but what it means to have a character trait is to be a doer of works that embody that trait. For example, the only way for someone to become courageous is through faith apart from being required to have first done enough courageous works in order to earn it as the result, but it would be contradictory for someone to become courageous apart from becoming a doer of courageous works, and the same is true for righteousness (1 John 3:4-7, Isaiah 51:7), and every other character trait.
The Torah was never given as a way of earning our righteousness even as the result of having perfect obedience (Romans 4:1-5), but rather it was given to describe the works that a righteous person is a doer of as it describes the works of Christ, so it is what we get to experience by being given the gift of righteousness through faith. Paul also affirmed in Romans 2:13 that only the doers of the Torah will be declared righteous, so there is a reason why our righteousness requires us to choose to be a doer of the Torah other than in order to earn it as a result, namely faith insofar as the faith by which we are declared righteous apart from works also upholds the Torah (Romans 3:28-31).
The Hebrew word “yada” refers to intimate relationships/knowledge gained by experience, such as with Genesis 4:1 where Adam knew (yada) Eve, she conceived, and gave birth to Cain. God’s way is the way to know (yada) Him and Jesus by having the experience of embodying His character traits, which is the narrow way to eternal life (John 17:3). For example, in Genesis 18:19, God knew (yada) Abraham that he would teach his children and those of His household to walk in His way by being doers of righteousness and justice that the Lord might bring to him all that He has promised. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know (yada) Him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the Torah is to graciously teach us how to experience an intimate relationship with God and Jesus by walking in His way, which is His gift of eternal life.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
That is true. But Gentiles that were taken in had to be circumcised and follow the Mosaic Law.....that changed.
Everything happened when it was supposed to happen. It happened as Yeshua intended for it to happen.
Yeshua worked with the Jews first as it should have been.
But if He told the Jews that the Mosaic Laws would eventually not apply to Christians there was no chance for the Jews.
If He told them that the Gentiles would eventually take the helm of Christianity, there was no chance for the Jews.
While someone being a witch carries the death penalty, the Torah does not instruct us to go around killing anyone who we think is a witch, but rather it instructs for there to be due process with a system of courts and guidelines like that no one is to be put to death without at least two or three witnesses. A Sanhedrin that executed once every 70 years was considered to be murderous, so someone had to jump through a lot of hoops in order to be executed. There currently is no Sanhedrin, so it is not currently possible to execute someone in accordance with the Torah. Moreover, Jesus gave himself to pay the penalty for our sins, so it would be unlawful to enforce a penalty that has already been paid. However, even if it were true that I was incorrectly obeying the Torah, then that would just mean that I should repent, but it would not mean that I was wrong about the fact that followers of Christ should follow the example of obedience to the Torah that he set for his followers to follow.
Gentiles who want to eat of the Passover lamb are still required to become circumcised (Exodus 12:48), so that has not changed. God never commanded circumcision for the purpose of become saved, so that also has not changed. In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Torah was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel that went out as a light to the Gentiles. Christ also set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Torah and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:6). So Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to follow the Torah by word and by example and being a Christian is about being a follower of what Christ taught, not about refusing to follow what he taught.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Find that in the scriptures.
No the Jewish-Christians required to be a Christian.
All that changed with Paul and the meeting in Jerusalem.
His followers then were Jewish-Christian and Gentiles that were required to follow the Jewish Laws.
I cited Exodus 12:48
Of course the Jewish Christians are required to be Christians, but that does not change the fact that the reason why God commanded circumcision was never in order to become saved as the result.
It did not. The Jerusalem Council should not be interpreted as ruling that followers of Christ shouldn't follow Christ, and even if it were true that that is what they had ruled, then followers of Christ should follow Christ instead of the Jerusalem Council.
The God who has the character traits that the Torah was given in order to teach us how to embody God the Torah in order to teach us how to connect with Him through embodying His character traits, which is what Jesus spent his ministry teaching his followers to do by word and by example, so both Jews and Gentiles have the choice of whether or not to connect with Him through following the Torah. It is contradictory for someone to want to be a follower of Christ while not wanting to be a followers of the example of obedience to the Torah that he set for his followers to follow.
Galatians 3:10
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."
According to Deuteronomy 27-30, the way to be blessed is by relying on the Book of the Law while the way to be cursed is by not relying on it, so Galatians 3:10 should not be interpreted as Paul quoting from that passage in order to support a point that is arguing the opposite of that passage. Rather, the fact that cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything in the Book of the Law straightforwardly means that we should continue to do everything in it, which is why everyone who relies on "works of the law" instead comes under that curse.
So you choose to be under the Curse of the Law! Have you even read the Curse?
No, the curse is only for those who refuse to submit to the Law of God.
Indeed. Do you really think that God will curse us for seeking to obey Him and the way to avoid be cursed is by refusing to obey Him?
You are trying to live by the Old Covenant, instead of the New Covenant.
We are now blessed by faith, not by keeping the 613 points of the Mosaic Law.
Our trust is in Christ, not our keeping the law.
Galatians 3:11
Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”
Galatians 2:16
Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
Why don't you obey the Law????????
Let's try again.
Galatians 3:10
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse
But Law preachers DO NOT obey God! You pick the parts you like! Stick with the New Covenant in Yeshua's Blood so you don't burn in Hell.
Last edited:
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
If Jesus is full the revealing of God then what do we do with the murderous accounts attributed to God in OT writings?
This is the question pushed onto us and must be definitively answered otherwise worshiping a schizophrenic God is obvious.
I would say that the Prophets had a distorted understanding of God which was straightened out by Jesus.
Consider the encounter on the Mt of Transfiguration.
Just the parts he likes, like every Law preacher I know of.
Amen!!!
You're calling God a murderer??? WOW!
It is clearly answered in the Bible that you CLEARLY REJECT! You have a HUGE problem.
The Genesis Flood is absolutely confirmed by SEVERAL Books in the Bible. You must be missing some pages. One day SOON you will stand before the 'murderer' on Judgment Day. GOOD LUCK!
You will learn.
Hebrews 10:31
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Last edited:
Proof-texting almost always leads to error. This is why we must take the full revelation of scripture into account. It is a false dichotomy to say that God "is in the saving business" and "not the destroying business." God is in the judgement business. That means he both saves and destroys. Perhaps you do not understand the utter sinfulness of sin and how God deals with sin, even though that is shown from beginning to end in the Bible.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
it is clear that you are, Jack
What is clearly answered in the Bible is the truth of God ....IN JESUS
You debate the wrong question Jack, superimposing that question onto me.
Quote me calling God a murderer! Do you know what will happen to ALL LIARS? Or is that missing from your Bible too?
But you said you don't believe what Jesus said!!! Remember?
Luke 17:26-27
26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.
You need a new Bible. Yours is missing LOTS of pages. Did someone rip them out?
2 Kings 17:25
25 And it was so, at the beginning of their dwelling there, that they did not fear the LORD; therefore the LORD sent lions among them, which killed some of them.
Do you also deny ETERNAL Hell that Jesus warned us of several times?
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
it is a dualistic God that people have bought into....even folk in OT times. They have eaten from the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil.
Jesus and his disciples declare that God is light and in him is no darkness at all.
God is and has always been light.
Similar threads
