Christians are in Rebellion against God for not following Torah

[Soyeong]

You are trying to live by the Old Covenant, instead of the New Covenant.

We are now blessed by faith, not by keeping the 613 points of the Mosaic Law.

No, I am speaking about how to live under the New Covenant, which involves God putting the 613 laws of the Torah in our minds and writing it on our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33). In Psalm 119:1-3, the Torah is how to know how to be blessed by walking in God's way, and in Psalm 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Torah, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation and blessing by grace through faith.

Our trust is in Christ, not our keeping the law.

Galatians 3:11

Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”

Do you think that God is a trustworthy giver of trustworthy instructions or an untrustworthy given of untrustworthy instructions? It is contradictory to think that we should have faith in God but not in His instructions or to think that we should have faith in God's Word made flesh but not in God's Word. The context of Habakkuk 2:4 does not present the righteous living by faith as being an alternative to living in obedience to God, but rather it is describing the way that the righteous live in obedience to God. In Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is the Torah and in 1 John 3:4-7, everyone who is a doer of righteous works in obedience to the Torah is righteous even as they are righteous, so the righteous living by faith does not refer to a way of living that is not in obedience to the Torah. To have a character trait means to be a doer of works that embody that trait, so in the same way that it would be contradictory for someone to be courageous while not being a doer of courageous works, it would be contradictory for someone to be righteous while not being a doer of righteous works.

Galatians 2:16

Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Again, we can't earn our righteousness even as the result of having perfect obedience to the Torah because it was never given as a way of earning our righteousness in the first place (Romans 4:1-5), which makes it that much more true that we can't earn our righteousness as the result of being "works of the law". The only way to become righteous is through faith apart from being required to have first done enough works in order to earn it as the result, but what it means to become righteous is to become a doer of righteous works in obedience to the Torah (Isaiah 51:7, 1 John 3:4-7). In Romans 2:13, Paul affirmed that only the doers of the Torah will be declared righteous, so there is a reason why our righteousness requires us to choose to be doers of it other than in order to earn it as the result, namely faith insofar as the faith by which we are declared righteous apart from works also upholds the Torah (Romans 3:28-31).

 

[quietthinker]

Quote me calling God a murderer! Do you know what will happen to ALL LIARS?

But you said you don't believe what Jesus said!!! Remember?

Luke 17:26-27
26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.

You need a new Bible. Yours is missing LOTS of pages. Did someone rip them out?

2 Kings 17:25
25 And it was so, at the beginning of their dwelling there, that they did not fear the LORD; therefore the LORD sent lions among them, which killed some of them.

Do you also deny ETERNAL Hell that Jesus warned us of?

I see you have no faith that God loves you and that he has saved you. If you did your trajectory would not be the condemnation of others.

 

[Soyeong]

Why don't you obey the Law????????

Let's try again.

Galatians 3:10
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse

I have said nothing in support of obeying "works of the law", but rather I have been speaking in favor of obeying the Torah.

But Law preachers DO NOT obey God! You pick the parts you like!

Even if that were true, then it wouldn't that I was wrong about the fact that followers of Christ should follow his example of obedience to the Torah, so you continue to miss the point every time you repeat that false accusation.

Stick with the New Covenant in Yeshua's Blood so you don't burn in Hell.

The New Covenant involves God putting the Torah in our minds and writing it on our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33), so those who want nothing to do with following Christ's example of obedience to it also want nothing to do with the New Covenant.

 

[Jack]

I see you have no faith that God loves you and that he has saved you.

Take off your blinders.

If you did you did your trajectory would not be the condemnation of others.

Don't blame me for you attacks on the Bible!

 

[Jack]

I have said nothing in support of obeying "works of the law", but rather I have been speaking in favor of obeying the Torah.

Are you JW? Stop being EVASIVE and tell us why you preach Torah but don't obey Torah! Do you know what Jesus called the Scribes and Pharisees?

Even if that were true, then it wouldn't that I was wrong about the fact that followers of Christ should follow his example of obedience to the Torah, so you continue to miss the point every time you repeat that false accusation.

So why don't YOU obey Torah that you preach?

The New Covenant involves God putting the Torah in our minds and writing it on our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33), so those who want nothing to do with following Christ's example of obedience to it also want nothing to do with the New Covenant.

Either obey Torah or stop preaching Torah! Stop picking the parts of Torah you like and ignoring the rest! Tell us what Torah says about EXECUTING sinners. Do you even know?

 

[quietthinker]

Do you also deny ETERNAL Hell that Jesus warned us of?

if you understood what Jesus meant, you would understand.....but now it is hidden from your eyes

 

[Jack]

if you understood what Jesus meant, you would understand.....but now it is hidden from your eyes

That's JW doctrine, 'the Bible doesn't mean what it says'!

Hell will have BILLIONS of humans who don't believe in Hell!

 

[Soyeong]

Are you JW?

No.

Stop being EVASIVE and tell us why you preach Torah but don't obey Torah!

I do obey the Torah.

Do you know what Jesus called the Scribes and Pharisees?

Jesus set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Torah, so he was much more zealous for obeying it than the scribes and Pharisees were and while he criticized them for not obeying it or for not obeying it correctly, he never criticized them for being zealous for obeying it. For example, in Mark 7:6-9, Jesus criticized Pharisees as being hypocrites for setting aside the commands of God in order to establish their own traditions. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that tithing was something that they ought to be doing while not neglecting weightier matters of the Torah of justice, mercy, and faith, so he was not opposing their obedience to the Torah, but rather he was calling them to have a higher level of obedience to it.

So why don't YOU obey Torah that you preach?

I do obey the Torah, but even if I did not, then that would just mean that I would need to repent, not that I was wrong about the fact that followers of Christ should follow his example of obedience to the Torah. IF someone doesn't do what they preach, then that does not mean that what they preach is wrong, just that they should align their actions with what they preach.

Either obey Torah or stop preaching Torah! Stop picking the parts of Torah you like and ignoring the rest! Tell us what

Even if I were actively trying to transgress as much of the Torah as I could, then that would just mean that I would need to repent, not that I was wrong about the fact that followers of Christ should follow his example of obedience to the Torah. What I happen to be doing is completely independent of whether or not followers of Christ should follow Christ. I do not pick and choose which parts of the Torah to follow.

Torah says about EXECUTING sinners. Do you even know?

Again, the Torah does not instruct us to go around executing anyone that we see committing a sin.

 

[Anchorite]

I do obey the Torah.

I do not pick and choose which parts of the Torah to follow.


Again, the Torah does not instruct us to go around executing anyone that we see committing a sin.

Deuteronomy 17

2 If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the Lord thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the Lord thy God, in transgressing his covenant,

3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;

4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel:

5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.

7 The hands of the witnesses shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterward the hands of all the people. So thou shalt put the evil away from among you.

 

[Soyeong]

Deuteronomy 17

2 If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the Lord thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the Lord thy God, in transgressing his covenant,

3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;

4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel:

5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.

7 The hands of the witnesses shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterward the hands of all the people. So thou shalt put the evil away from among you.

Indeed, no one is to be put to death without at least two or three witnesses, it does not instruct us to kill anyone who we see committing a sin, but rather it requires there to be a court. If I was one of three people in a room and I directly witnesses one of them murdering the other one, then that person would not receive the death penalty in accordance with the Torah because I was the only witness. Moreover, no one can be executed in accordance with the Torah without a Sanhedrin.

 

[Jack]

I do obey the Torah.

So you execute sinners as Torah COMMANDS? How many have you executed?

 

[Jack]

Indeed, no one is to be put to death without at least two or three witnesses, it does not instruct us to kill anyone who we see committing a sin, but rather it requires there to be a court. If I was one of three people in a room and I directly witnesses one of them murdering the other one, then that person would not receive the death penalty in accordance with the Torah because I was the only witness. Moreover, no one can be executed in accordance with the Torah without a Sanhedrin.

There are MILLIONS who work on weekends, including Christians. How many witnesses do you need? lol

Exodus 31:15 Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

 

[Soyeong]

So you execute sinners as Torah COMMANDS? How many have you executed?

The Torah does not instruct to go around executing anyone that we see committing a sin, but rather it instructs for there to be courts, such as with no one being put to death without at least two or three witnesses.

There are MILLIONS who work on weekends, including Christians. How many witnesses do you need? lol

Exodus 31:15 Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

No one can be put to death in accordance with the Torah without a Sanhedrin. Moreover, it would be unjust to enforce a penalty that Jesus has already paid. The fact that God considers some sins to be worthy of the death penalty and the fact that Jesus gave himself to pay that penalty should make us want to go and sin no more.

 

[Jack]

The Torah does not instruct to go around executing anyone that we see committing a sin, but rather it instructs for there to be courts, such as with no one being put to death without at least two or three witnesses.

No one can be put to death in accordance with the Torah without a Sanhedrin. Moreover, it would be unjust to enforce a penalty that Jesus has already paid. The fact that God considers some sins to be worthy of the death penalty and the fact that Jesus gave himself to pay that penalty should make us want to go and sin no more.

I don't think you have a clue what Torah says!
Deuteronomy 13:6-9
6 "If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter, the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying, 'Let us go and serve other gods,' which you have not known, neither you nor your fathers,
7 of the gods of the people which are all around you, near to you or far off from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth,
8 you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him;
9 but you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people.

 

[Soyeong]

I don't think you have a clue what Torah says!
Deuteronomy 13:6-9
6 "If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter, the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying, 'Let us go and serve other gods,' which you have not known, neither you nor your fathers,
7 of the gods of the people which are all around you, near to you or far off from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth,
8 you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him;
9 but you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people.

The fact that leading people to follow other gods carries the death penalty does not mean that there is not due process.