The Bible doesn't instruct to pray to Jesus

[Runningman]

Was Jesus created?

Yes, but the rest of your commentary doesn't really address any of the points. See what we can do? We can exegete John 1:1 as the beginning of Jesus' ministry, but you cannot exegete nor derive a beginning of the Genesis 1 creation narrative from John 1. Why? Well, simply because the Word is never mentioned as co-creator in the Old Testament, nor anywhere else in the Bible for that matter, is never stated to be Jesus, is never stated to be God outside of your preferred translation.

So, based on the testimony of Scripture and the rightly dividing of the Scripture, it looks like your camp is 0 and mine is 1.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Generally speaking, how is God defined in the Bible though? A He, a Him, His, I, You? The Father who is the God of our Lord Jesus Christ? The Father as the only true God, the throne sitter with His begotten Son temporarily at His right hand? The one who Jesus taught his followers to worship and pray to? The Father as the only God Jesus identified to believe in in order to have eternal life? If God were a trinity, for lack of a better way to put, Jesus and the apostles fooled a lot of people and that in and of itself would be concerning.

Anyway, this is a side discussion to this thread because it was necessary to address. God is never really defined as three persons in one being, or any of the trinitarian statements people use in the Bible which, if true, we should reasonably expect to be present. I don't agree with that version of God at all.

Perfect watchtower talking points.
Pitiful.
Butchering Gods word.

 

[Runningman]

No. The echo of Genesis 1:1 in John 1:1 is unmistakable. And verses 2-3, especially verse 3, confirms this.

Echo. Another literary technique that is useful in interpreting scripture.

Yeah there are some parallels in the wording, but "the beginning" refers to the start of Jesus' ministry, his baptism, anointing, and empowerment throughout the New Testament.

 

[Lambano]

Was Jesus created?

The Creed says, "begotten, not created". There's a difference. Does that imply that "there was a time when He was not"?

 

[rebuilder 454]

Yes, but the rest of your commentary doesn't really address any of the points. See what we can do? We can exegete John 1:1 as the beginning of Jesus' ministry, but you cannot exegete nor derive a beginning of the Genesis 1 creation narrative from John 1. Why? Well, simply because the Word is never mentioned as co-creator in the Old Testament, nor anywhere else in the Bible for that matter, is never stated to be Jesus, is never stated to be God outside of your preferred translation.

So, based on the testimony of Scripture and the rightly dividing of the Scripture, it looks like your camp is 0 and mine is 1.

Watchtower agrees with this 100%.
Sad indeed.

 

[Runningman]

Watchtower agrees with this 100%.
Sad indeed.

Not sure what they believe, but it sounds like you're saying the rightly understand the Biblical truth about this topic.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The Creed says, "begotten, not created". There's a difference. Does that imply that "there was a time when He was not"?

If he was created then the bible is a lie.

Every bit of salvation is lost if Jesus is a created being.

His death was meaningless, if a created being was on the cross.
Just plain goofy.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Not sure what they believe, but it sounds like you're saying the rightly understand the Biblical truth about this topic.

They are a cult.
The test of a cult is to deny Jesus.
You do so with great happiness and "authority"
You do realize this is a Christian site?

 

[Runningman]

They are a cult.
The test of a cult is to deny Jesus.
You do so with great happiness and "authority"
You do realize this is a Christian site?

Agreeing with what the Bible says is not a denial of Jesus. Perhaps they just disagree with your interpretations nor see you as having any authority to claim a monopoly on how to interpret the Bible? Protestantism has roughly 45K-50K denominations, sub-denominations, sects, and cults. There are tons of false prophets, charlatans, cult leaders, named, catalogued, and publicly available for viewing who ran their campaign under the banner of trinitarianism. Perhaps what a cult is would be a fine topic for a different thread.

In any case, are you actually going to address the issues or just insist you're right and that everyone who disagrees with you is in a cult?

 

[rebuilder 454]

Jesus,"destroy this temple, and in 3 days I will raise it up"

Here is tge cult dilemma.
No man could resurrect.
Only God could.
If you play out the cults mental offense in Jesus, you have a man on a cross.
A created being.
That man could never resurrect.
Galatians says "there was no law given that could impart life"

To miss this is to miss THE ENTIRE BIBLE.
THE ENTIRE BIBLE.
NO RESURRECTION....NO SALVATION.

Absolutely appalling this is not taught or undstood.
Some shallow debating over definitions and human reasoning.
Never understanding the scope of salvation or eternal life.

Your created Jesus is so small and weak.

Another Jesus not of the bible.

Just sickening.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Agreeing with what the Bible says is not a denial of Jesus. Perhaps they just disagree with your interpretations nor see you as having any authority to claim a monopoly on how to interpret the Bible? Protestantism has roughly 45K-50K denominations, sub-denominations, sects, and cults. There are tons of false prophets, charlatans, cult leaders, named, catalogued, and publicly available for viewing who ran their campaign under the banner of trinitarianism. Perhaps what a cult is would be a fine topic for a different thread.

In any case, are you actually going to address the issues or just insist you're right and that everyone who disagrees with you is in a cult?

No.
The pillars of the faith is the basis of martyrdom. many many believers died via clinging to the testimony of Jesus. Your religion cheapens faith in Jesus.
Your religion is cheap and disgusting to heaven.
A tiny weak Jesus.

 

[Runningman]

Jesus,"destroy this temple, and in 3 days I will raise it up"

Here is tge cult dilemma.
No man could resurrect.
Only God could.
If you play out the cults mental offense in Jesus, you have a man on a cross.
A created being.
That man could never resurrect.
Galatians says "there was no law given that could impart life"

To miss this is to miss THE ENTIRE BIBLE.
THE ENTIRE BIBLE.
NO RESURRECTION....NO SALVATION.

Absolutely appalling this is not taught or undstood.
Some shallow debating over definitions and human reasoning.
Never understanding the scope of salvation or eternal life.

Your created Jesus is so small and weak.

Another Jesus not of the bible.

Just sickening.

What Jesus said regarding his resurrection was spoken in prophetic language, i.e., "destroy this temple and in 3 days I'll raise it (the temple) up" but not that Jesus literally resurrected himself. However, apostle John didn't understand Jesus' prophecy concerning his resurrection as something Jesus would do to himself, but rather something Jesus would receive from God instead, evidenced by the fact that in John 2:22, John said "After he was raised from the dead..." Apostle John wrote this in the 3rd person perspective. In other words, John understood Jesus to be saying he would receive a resurrection rather than give one to himself. After that, the entire New Testament overwhelmingly says that God the Father raised Jesus from the dead. There are no examples of Jesus resurrecting himself nor participating in his own resurrection throughout the Bible.

 

[Runningman]

No.
The pillars of the faith is the basis of martyrdom. many many believers died via clinging to the testimony of Jesus. Your religion cheapens faith in Jesus.
Your religion is cheap and disgusting to heaven.
A tiny weak Jesus.

It is concerning that you have so much hatred for the real Jesus.

 

[PS95]

They are a cult.
The test of a cult is to deny Jesus.
You do so with great happiness and "authority"
You do realize this is a Christian site?

Again- I realize thread that gets long are ridiculous to read all of all of , but not it's been established that he's not jw- Actually jws don't deny the pre-existence of Jesus like these Unitarian/Christadelphians do. Jws lower Jesus to an un-worshipable creature angel in pre-existence. But these guys go ever further into the pit on this. JWs excel by far with their dying for your own sins = auto resurrection..
But these guys get the trophy for no prexistence.--- Frankly, if you do so digging on how poorly they actually try to defend their non pre-existence charade- you will understand there isn't much to it, and just as JWs do- they deceitfully quote scholars in order to make you think they back them- when they did not. Typical tactic of deception also used by the watchtower.

And, YES he knows full well this is a Christian site and that if he tagged himself as a Christian-- that these kinds of threads are not permitted unless you are "OTHER FAITH". So, from the get-go these people like Keith R, Wrangler, Aunty Jane,. Runningman, Keiw, theHC, HIddenthings, etc...... have been deceitful from the get-go when they signed up on here ,knowing they were acting as if they agreed to the statement of faith when they did not. They are here to disrupt and for whatever reason this forum allows constant breaking of the rules. It gives them the very platform they desire and goes against every statement in the scriptures about how we are to handle divisive/ false teachers.

 

[PS95]

The Creed says, "begotten, not created". There's a difference. Does that imply that "there was a time when He was not"?

I'm surprised you would ask this. Haven't you already thoroughly checked this out for yourself? I sure have. Bottom line---
Either we are worshiping a creature who calls himself the alpha and omega, who participated in creation of ALL things in heaven and earth... or we aint.

 

[PS95]

It is concerning that you have so much hatred for the real Jesus.

That's hilarious. What is wrong with you? You know that deny Christ and the statement of faith on this forum is only to be done by those who tag themselves as other faith? I would suggest to you that until you change your tag to other faith- topics such as these are not allowed. Christians don't deny their own faith. When you signed up you were agreeing to the SOF. Understand yet?

 

[PS95]

What Jesus said regarding his resurrection was spoken in prophetic language, i.e., "destroy this temple and in 3 days I'll raise it (the temple) up" but not that Jesus literally resurrected himself. However, apostle John didn't understand Jesus' prophecy concerning his resurrection as something Jesus would do to himself, but rather something Jesus would receive from God instead, evidenced by the fact that in John 2:22, John said "After he was raised from the dead..." Apostle John wrote this in the 3rd person perspective. In other words, John understood Jesus to be saying he would receive a resurrection rather than give one to himself. After that, the entire New Testament overwhelmingly says that God the Father raised Jesus from the dead. There are no examples of Jesus resurrecting himself nor participating in his own resurrection throughout the Bible.

Not quite- The Bible indicates that all three Persons of Trinity were involved in Jesus’ resurrection. Galatians 1:1 says that the Father raised Jesus from the dead. First Peter 3:18 says that the Spirit raised Jesus from the dead (see also Romans 1:4, and note that Romans 8:11 clearly says that God will resurrect believers “through His Spirit”). And in John 2:19 Jesus predicted that He will raise Himself from the dead (see also John 10:18). So, when we answer the question of who resurrected Jesus, we can say God did. And by that we can mean it was the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit
You pick n choose and we will take the full counsel - every word matters and harmonizes.

 

[Wrangler]

No. The echo of Genesis 1:1 in John 1:1 is unmistakable.

Eisegesis. "Echo" is a form of an Appeal to Strawman.

 

[Lambano]

Eisegesis. "Echo" is a form of an Appeal to Strawman.

Nope. "Echo" is a recognized literary form where the author intentionally echoes the phrasing of another well-known work. I refer you to Echoes of Scripture in the Letters of Paul, by Richard Hays. Paul makes use of echo a lot.

 

[Wrangler]

Nope. "Echo" is a recognized literary form

And that, my friend IS the appeal to Strawman. LOL We aren't talking about 'recognized literary form' but "the absence of Biblical instruction to pray to Jesus."