Reviving Biblical Christianity (The Way) Part 2

[marks]

Like it repeats the same thing using a different word.? Is that the term for it?

Yes, according to what I've learned.

....in this case I think the unjust and filthy mean the same thing...unredeemed fallen man. And the righteous (just) and holy (clean, not filthy) mean the same thing too...the redeemed. But maybe there is another way to look at it I dont' know....it's just that the first place I try to look for understanding is to the bible itself and let it interpret itself.

I relate these to Ephesians 2, of the unsaved, fulfilling the lusts of the flesh (filthy) and of the mind (unjust).

Concerning righteousness and holiness, holiness is being set apart for God's exclusive use, and righteous is the state of being and doing what is right.

Much love!

 

[ProDeo]

I’ve learned pretty much everything I know about Christianity through Bible and doctrinal discussions with other believers. I feel like my understanding of what it means to be crucified with Christ may be lacking.

Rom 6:6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.

But read the whole chapter for context.

 

[Lizbeth]

but the very sad thing is that people don't tend to go that deep anymore, to be crucified with Christ. It takes a REAL man or woman of God to "sell all they have" and follow Christ.
People don't realize that we've each been given the perfect gift (without blemish) to sacrifice to God...but will we??

Amen to that (though I am just rejoining the conversation after an internet outage and don't know what the argument is about).

 

[Laurina]

You’re not a nobody. You don’t have to answer, I just thought it might be good to dig into to that aspect.

Hi,
I don't feel qualified to answer because my sacrifice has not yet been accepted. But I have hope because in Genesis 4:7 it says, "If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted?" Which means to me, with how I understand, is that my whole heart has not yet been engaged. It takes a whole heart. I heard someone say, "you need enough water in the tank to be able to flush it." Unless it's 100% it's not enough. So here I am, trusting, hoping, looking for inspiration to be able to cry out to God with a whole heart.
I believe that someone who has actually experienced this is better able to share, then just giving "opinions or thoughts".
That is why I am reading "Madame Guyon's Autobiography." She experienced this. For me, this has helped my understanding of what it would take.

 

[Laurina]

1Petr 3:15 but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,

Thanks, I answered.

 

[IndianaRob]

Hi,
I don't feel qualified to answer because my sacrifice has not yet been accepted. But I have hope because in Genesis 4:7 it says, "If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted?" Which means to me, with how I understand, is that my whole heart has not yet been engaged. It takes a whole heart. I heard someone say, "you need enough water in the tank to be able to flush it." Unless it's 100% it's not enough. So here I am, trusting, hoping, looking for inspiration to be able to cry out to God with a whole heart.
I believe that someone who has actually experienced this is better able to share, then just giving "opinions or thoughts".
That is why I am reading "Madame Guyon's Autobiography." She experienced this. For me, this has helped my understanding of what it would take.

Just from from what you said there, you’re on the right track!

 

[marks]

Hi,
I don't feel qualified to answer because my sacrifice has not yet been accepted. But I have hope because in Genesis 4:7 it says, "If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted?" Which means to me, with how I understand, is that my whole heart has not yet been engaged. It takes a whole heart. I heard someone say, "you need enough water in the tank to be able to flush it." Unless it's 100% it's not enough. So here I am, trusting, hoping, looking for inspiration to be able to cry out to God with a whole heart.
I believe that someone who has actually experienced this is better able to share, then just giving "opinions or thoughts".
That is why I am reading "Madame Guyon's Autobiography." She experienced this. For me, this has helped my understanding of what it would take.

Philippians 2:12-13 KJV
12) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13) For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

God is working in us changing both our will and our ability.

Much Love!

 

[amigo de christo]

I'm surprised you don't have an answer to that question, considering all you've written in this thread, as though you understand these things.

Much love!

The warning must go out . Let he who has ears hear and recieve it .
The beast will enforce worship of its inclusive god by means of the POWERFUL AI LED DIGITAL SYSTEM .
No retreat and no surrender and no conforming . Expose the ecumeincal harlot
and point ONLY TO JESUS CHRIST , while we still have time to do so .

 

[Lizbeth]

How do you perfect or grow love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith?

Growth and increase and maturing of the fruit......process of sanctification, as I understand it. God's work in our lives as well as our part in submitting to His work and seeking to grow - like the growth and ripening of fruit to its peak of perfection. Fruits include good works as well as Christ-like character traits. And the Lord prunes even the fruitful branches to make them more fruitful. The long and the short of it is that He does it through suffering.

2Co 7:1
Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Luk 8:14
And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

Col 1:10
That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;

Heb 13:21
Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Jhn 15:2
“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

Mar 4:26-29

And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground;
And should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how.
For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear.
But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come.

 

[IndianaRob]

Growth and increase and maturing of the fruit......process of sanctification, as I understand it. God's work in our lives as well as our part in submitting to His work and seeking to grow - like the growth and ripening of fruit to its peak of perfection. Fruits include good works as well as Christ-like character traits. And the Lord prunes even the fruitful branches to make them more fruitful. The long and the short of it is that He does it through suffering.

2Co 7:1
Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Luk 8:14
And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

Col 1:10
That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;

Heb 13:21
Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Jhn 15:2
“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

Mar 4:26-29

And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground;
And should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how.
For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear.
But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come.

Lizbeth, I want to say first that I agree with more of this than it probably seems. God grows the fruit, He prunes the branches, sanctification is real and it matters. Hebrews 13:21 says He makes us perfect in every good work, "working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight", that's Him doing it in us.

And you citing Mark 4 struck me, because I'd asked how the fruit grows and that parable says the man sleeps and rises and "the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how." But we know it is God that brings forth the fruit. As Paul said, he planted and Apollos watered, "but God gave the increase."

I also think I understand what you're actually against. There are plenty of people who claim Christ and show nothing, and treat grace as a license. I'm not arguing for a faith that leaves a man where it found him.

Early on you said that His righteousness is imputed to us "especially as babes and children," and that we need to live up to what's been imputed, and that suffering is "the price we pay." If I die tomorrow with fruit that's still green, is Christ's righteousness enough for me, or not?

I ask because of the thief on the cross. He never ripened anything. No pruning, no increase, no stewarding of talents and only hours between believing and dying. And Christ told him, "To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." Whatever got him in was complete the moment he believed.

 

[Hepzibah]

That is why I am reading "Madame Guyon's Autobiography." She experienced this. For me, this has helped my understanding of what it would take.

Madame Guyon is a good example of an already believer who came to a crisis point in her journey with Christ, that is spoken of by others throughout church history.

You can read it in some early church writers, for example St Maximus the Confessor, who I think is the clearest, then some, easier to understand for us westerns, like Guyon, George Fox who 'came into the garden (paradise) through the flaming double edged sword', and many during the holiness movement in the US and UK of the 19th and early 20th century. You get various stages of growth, not always following the early church understanding of three stages, but the basic is the same - one is a believer, just plodding along, believing that they will be sanctified slowly over their lifetime, not questioning the fable, till death completes it, making death our friend which is unscriptural where it is said to be our enemy, till one day one becomes distrubed by ones spiritual state compared to that of the disciples and other past saints, (work of the Holy Spirit) then seeks answers to solve the increasing despair within.

Asking others will result in being told the lie from the pit, that the devil is 'attacking them' when it is the Holy Spirit inducing them onto the 'ladder of ascent' to truly be in the kingdom. Most are not at that stage and will decry the truth.

The answer is to let the Holy Spirit do His work, and learn to hear Him now for guidance, and not be deceived by others with their twisting of scripture to make it acceptable to the human understanding.

 

[ProDeo]

Madame Guyon is a good example of an already believer who came to a crisis point in her journey with Christ, that is spoken of by others throughout church history.

You can read it in some early church writers, for example St Maximus the Confessor, who I think is the clearest, then some, easier to understand for us westerns, like Guyon, George Fox who 'came into the garden (paradise) through the flaming double edged sword', and many during the holiness movement in the US and UK of the 19th and early 20th century. You get various stages of growth, not always following the early church understanding of three stages, but the basic is the same - one is a believer, just plodding along, believing that they will be sanctified slowly over their lifetime, not questioning the fable, till death completes it, making death our friend which is unscriptural where it is said to be our enemy, till one day one becomes distrubed by ones spiritual state compared to that of the disciples and other past saints, (work of the Holy Spirit) then seeks answers to solve the increasing despair within.

Asking others will result in being told the lie from the pit, that the devil is 'attacking them' when it is the Holy Spirit inducing them onto the 'ladder of ascent' to truly be in the kingdom. Most are not at that stage and will decry the truth.

The answer is to let the Holy Spirit do His work, and learn to hear Him now for guidance, and not be deceived by others with their twisting of scripture to make it acceptable to the human understanding.

The Delusions of Madame Guyon

The Delusions of Madame Guyon

www.wayoflife.org

Quite some critical review on Madame Guyon, if you are in the mood to read it, can you shine your light on it?

 

[Hepzibah]

The Delusions of Madame Guyon

The Delusions of Madame Guyon

www.wayoflife.org

Quite some critical review on Madame Guyon, if you are in the mood to read it, can you shine your light on it?

I have previously read these views on Guyon and agree that she went a little to far on some things, but her basis was correct - we are enabled through Christ to be fully united with Him and share in His divine energies making us perfect.

It is a mistake to get bound up in the details without seeing the full picture. No-one gets it perfectly correct - we are not meant to function as individuals, and the truth is not given fully to one man when it comes to the finer details. We know who is on the same page however. We also make the mistake of taking someones earlier words as their mature state.

Scripture says that God sees the heart of man. The mind often takes time to catch up.

 

[Episkopos]

Episkopos believes that those who don't know Jesus are saved if they live "righteously", even if they worship idols due to their ignorance of who God is and haven't had a chance to hear the gospel. (And he is free to clarify if anything is being misunderstood here.) I didn't know worshiping idols could be considered part of righteous living. People may be good to their families and neighbours and appear outwardly righteous, but still have all kinds of other sins that are done in secret as well. There is no one truly righteous, apart from Christ. A kumbya gospel doesn't save anyone.

You judge by appearances. God judges the heart.

 

[Episkopos]

As per usual, my thread is being overrun with carnal religiosity.

The only parallelism we find here is between many here and the Pharisees of old. Explaining away anything that brings light into darkness.

The filthy as described by the Lord in Rev. 22:11 can only be believers who have no fear and present themselves before the Lord without being inwardly clean. No wicked unbelieving person would bother to put themselves into a situation where they would approach God in a sinful state. Actually, quite the opposite...a wicked unbeliever would REPENT to approach God. Not so the smug believers who have false assurances of favour before God. That's why Jesus said that prostitutes and publicans would enter the kingdom before the religious hypocrites and truth dissimulators.

There are 4 eternal destinies described over and over again in the bible. The willfully blind can't count that high it seems. But that's because of those who have been stored up for future judgment....who mock, and attack anyone who exposes their true condition. Darkness hates the light. And foolish children don't listen to correction. But God is righteous and will judge the hearts. He gives grace to the humble and resists the proud and self-justified.

 

[shepherdsword]

The Delusions of Madame Guyon

The Delusions of Madame Guyon

www.wayoflife.org

Quite some critical review on Madame Guyon, if you are in the mood to read it, can you shine your light on it?

The biggest problem I have with her and others like her is this. She gives out knowledge to anyone that can read way before they are ready to experience such depths themselves. This results in a puffed up form of spiritual pride that is harmful. It's better to avoid such books and seek God, oneself, with all of your heart and gain the revelation when experienced. Just my take on it. On the other hand, there are those who are in a state where such writings are very helpful.

 

[Hepzibah]

The biggest problem I have with her and others like her is this. She gives out knowledge to anyone that can read way before they are ready to experience such depths themselves. This results in a puffed up form of spiritual pride that is harmful. It's better to avoid such books and seek God, oneself, with all of your heart and gain the revelation when experienced. Just my take on it. On the other hand, there are those who are in a state where such writings are very helpful.

I agree that we need to train ourselves to listen to the Holy Spirit and give ourselves completely in obeying Him and leading us on the paths of righteousness, but I have personally been helped a lot by these writers like, St John of the Cross, Watchman Nee, General Booth (SA), Oswald Chambers and the like though nowadays I would disagree with them on some things.

They were experienced however, on the path I was following though.

 

[Lizbeth]

Lizbeth, I want to say first that I agree with more of this than it probably seems. God grows the fruit, He prunes the branches, sanctification is real and it matters. Hebrews 13:21 says He makes us perfect in every good work, "working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight", that's Him doing it in us.

And you citing Mark 4 struck me, because I'd asked how the fruit grows and that parable says the man sleeps and rises and "the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how." But we know it is God that brings forth the fruit. As Paul said, he planted and Apollos watered, "but God gave the increase."

I also think I understand what you're actually against. There are plenty of people who claim Christ and show nothing, and treat grace as a license. I'm not arguing for a faith that leaves a man where it found him.

Early on you said that His righteousness is imputed to us "especially as babes and children," and that we need to live up to what's been imputed, and that suffering is "the price we pay." If I die tomorrow with fruit that's still green, is Christ's righteousness enough for me, or not?

I ask because of the thief on the cross. He never ripened anything. No pruning, no increase, no stewarding of talents and only hours between believing and dying. And Christ told him, "To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." Whatever got him in was complete the moment he believed.

Amen. The part of the Mark 4 verse that I underlined was to show the concept of different phases of growth until the ear was fully ripe. The fruit can be seen/discerned, but the process itself is not visible as such.......I think that is what is meant by "he knoweth not how". We go through our trials etc but even we don't know how it is working in us. We may only see the results in hindsight later, but don't know exactly how the fruit was wrought.

Just my own rambling thoughts here, but I believe God will judge at least partly based on how well or whether the person (believer) was running their race with the time they had. As long as they are in the race (narrow path) and not backslidden or avoiding the altar through disobedience. Like a child growing, we wouldn't expect a two year old to walk as well as an adult running a marathon. Like children in school are "graded" according to their grade level, not against university level standards. But conversely if an able-bodied 40 year old, for example, is still living at their parent's house toddling and stumbling around in diapers, 38 years later, well.....that one is not likely to be rewarded I would think. Whether such a one is still even saved or not, I think we need to let God decide that, since He is the only one who knows all the ins and outs of any person's situation. But the danger of not growing is that they can more easily fall away....as Heb 6 seems to imply. And as we sadly seem to see that happening with the modern church in general.

Suffering is key to growth.....".it is through much tribulation that we enter the kingdom of heaven".....but who can even say why some suffer more than others, and others seem to sail along with fewer bumps in the road... I don't know. Whether that is just an element of chance or God's doing per se, or some of each, I dont' know.

I needed the reminder about suffering recently, reading something in a little book by Watchman Nee (Breaking of the Outer Man and the Release of the Spirit).....it was strengthening. I haven't tended to suffer well.....too much murmuring, complaining and struggling and wriggling against it instead of accepting it and submitting myself to God IN it.

 

[Lizbeth]

You judge by appearances. God judges the heart.

But that works both ways, true?

People can appear to be righteous outwardly, but meanwhile only God sees that they really are not. We may want righteous seeming pagan believers to be saved apart from knowing Christ, because they appear outwardly to be "good" people who have suffered a lot in this life, and it is just that our human sympathies are aroused. If even Paul knew that in him (his flesh) was no good thing.......how much more does it apply to those who have not been washed in the water of the word? The bible says the heart is deceitfully wicked, who can know it? What is the only thing that could make those unclean (filthy) animals that Peter saw in a vision, declared to be clean (holy)?

 

[Lizbeth]

I have previously read these views on Guyon and agree that she went a little to far on some things, but her basis was correct - we are enabled through Christ to be fully united with Him and share in His divine energies making us perfect.

It is a mistake to get bound up in the details without seeing the full picture. No-one gets it perfectly correct - we are not meant to function as individuals, and the truth is not given fully to one man when it comes to the finer details. We know who is on the same page however. We also make the mistake of taking someones earlier words as their mature state.

Scripture says that God sees the heart of man. The mind often takes time to catch up.

I'm not convinced that even the most mature and holy saint will understand every jot and tittle of scripture correctly. I believe their testimonies, but consider that their doctrines always need to be examined/ tested. Unless there is a point at which growing and learning ever ceases in this life.