Is it possible to lose salvation?

[PeterAndroz]

We have numerous passages of scripture that clearly teach, we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." (Luke 7:50; 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 4:4; 10:4; 10:43; 13:39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6, 9: 5:1-2; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:6-14, 26; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:4, 13 etc..) Then we have a handful of verses that "on the surface" appear to contradict those verses by "adding the work of water baptism" to salvation through belief/faith yet if we go with the latter, then we end up contradicting those numerous clear passages of scripture by our own personal eisegesis and there are no contradictions in God's Word. *HERMENEUTICS.

There are a handful of alleged proof texts that water-salvationists use to try and prove that baptism is absolutely required for salvation (Mark 16:16; John 3:5; Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16; 1 Peter 3:21) yet after a careful examination of each of those texts in context will show that none of them conclusively prove that baptism is absolutely required for salvation, though they do prove that baptism was an assumed initiatory response to the gospel of salvation. In other words, those texts prove only that baptism is regularly associated with conversion and salvation, rather than absolutely required for salvation.

These Gentiles in Acts 10 received the gift of the Holy Spirit and were manifesting the spiritual gift of tongues from the Holy Spirit (which is ONLY for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12) after believing the gospel but before being water baptized. (Acts 10:43-47) Now baptism was not considered an "optional extra" for these Gentiles; it was a command (Acts 10:48) that they were expected to obey. However, it was not obedience to this command that saved them, but their believing in Christ for salvation. (Acts 10:43)

Good to see you also referring to Paul (Romans to Philemon) and if Paul taught water-baptism is a justification requirement for today then so it is but yet, Christ through Paul does not.

 

[gpresdo]

,We have numerous passages of scripture that clearly teach, we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." (Luke 7:50; 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 4:4; 10:4; 10:43; 13:39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6, 9: 5:1-2; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:6-14, 26; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:4, 13 etc..) Then we have a handful of verses that "on the surface" appear to contradict those verses by "adding the work of water baptism" to salvation through belief/faith yet if we go with the latter, then we end up contradicting those numerous clear passages of scripture by our own personal eisegesis and there are no contradictions in God's Word. *HERMENEUTICS.

There are a handful of alleged proof texts that water-salvationists use to try and prove that baptism is absolutely required for salvation (Mark 16:16; John 3:5; Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16; 1 Peter 3:21) yet after a careful examination of each of those texts in context will show that none of them conclusively prove that baptism is absolutely required for salvation, though they do prove that baptism was an assumed initiatory response to the gospel of salvation. In other words, those texts prove only that baptism is regularly associated with conversion and salvation, rather than absolutely required for salvation.

These Gentiles in Acts 10 received the gift of the Holy Spirit and were manifesting the spiritual gift of tongues from the Holy Spirit (which is ONLY for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12) after believing the gospel but before being water baptized. (Acts 10:43-47) Now baptism was not considered an "optional extra" for these Gentiles; it was a command (Acts 10:48) that they were expected to obey. However, it was not obedience to this command that saved them, but their believing in Christ for salvation. (Acts 10:43)

Oh...u are not using the thief on the cross as a support for your belief anymore....why not?
You are wrong, sir, not me...the Bible .....SAYS SO!!!

 

[gpresdo]

Er yeah that would be numerous scripture references agreeing with one another concerning a particular topic

I understand. He only uses the point when it is in his favor. So when he uses it...it doesn't work.

 

[PeterAndroz]

I understand. He only uses the point when it is in his favor. So when he uses it...it doesn't work.

To lose 'salvation' today one would need to lose the Eph 1:13, Eph 4:30 seal of the HS.
How does a believer today do that ?

 

[mailmandan]

Oh...u are not using the thief on the cross as a support for your belief anymore....why not?
You are wrong, sir, not me...the Bible .....SAYS SO!!!

I already made my point about the thief on the cross so why should I run it into the ground? Also, I have numerous other passages of scripture to share with you that support my belief. I see that you have no rebuttal. You just simply disagree. There is no need for you to have a meltdown and tell me I'm wrong. Prove to me from scripture that I am wrong.

If water baptism was absolutely necessary for salvation, then we would expect to find at least one verse in the Bible which states, "whoever is not baptized will be condemned" yet to the contrary, we find: John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Also, if water baptism was absolutely necessary for salvation, then God would not make so many statements in which He promises eternal life/salvation to those who simply BELIEVE/PLACE FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST FOR SALVATION. (Luke 7:50; 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 4:4; 10:4; 10:43; 13:39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6, 9: 5:1-2; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:6-14, 26; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:4, 13)

 

[Michiah-Imla]

To lose 'salvation' today one would need to lose the Eph 1:13, Eph 4:30 seal of the HS

No.

One just needs to obey sin unto death (Romans 6:16) and be disobedient unto wickedness.

Stop believing the lie of “once saved always saved”.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Beware of @mailmandan long wordy posts.

When you believe a lie, you need a lot of great swelling words of vanity to teach it (2 Peter 2:18).

Stick with the simple truth of the Holy Bible (KJV recommended).

 

[Michiah-Imla]

“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.” (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Take heed brethren, take heed!

 

[PinSeeker]

To lose 'salvation' today one would need to lose the Eph 1:13, Eph 4:30 seal of the HS.
How does a believer today do that ?

Right. The calling of God and the gifts of the Spirit are irrevocable. And we are kept in the Spirit through faith by the power of the Spirit to the day of Christ. The good word that God began in us He will bring to completion at that day. If anyone "goes back" to dwelling in sin, he or she will prove never really having been born again of the Spirit, will prove that they are not of the people of God, which is what John says in 1 John 2:19. For those folks, as the writer of Hebrews says in Hebrews 3:12, their evil, unbelieving heart ~ their heart of stone never having been replaced by God with a heart of flesh, a new spirit given by God (Ezekiel 11:19-20 and 36:26-27) ~ will lead them to fall away. As Jesus tells Nicodemus in John 3, "...unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God... unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." But, thanks be to God, once he is born again... <smile> ...nothing ~ nothing ~ can separate him or her from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord (Romans 8:39).

Grace and peace to you, Peter.

 

[mailmandan]

Beware of @mailmandan long wordy posts.

When you believe a lie, you need a lot of great swelling words of vanity to teach it (2 Peter 2:18).

Stick with the simple truth of the Holy Bible (KJV recommended).

Beware of folks who teach salvation by works (Romans 4:5-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9) and sinless perfection (1 John 1:8-10) which is a lie and is not the simple truth of the Holy Bible (KJV or not).

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Beware of folks who teach salvation by works (Romans 4:5-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9)

A sinner needs no works to obtain salvation and have his past sins forgiven.

But once he is saved, he better:

“…continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel…” (Colossians 1:23)

Because:

“…faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” (James 2:17)

Beware of folks who teach… sinless perfection (1 John 1:8-10)

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; …and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” (1 John 3:9)

So:

“…sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.” (John 5:14)

 

[PinSeeker]

A sinner needs no works to obtain salvation and have his past sins forgiven.

Right...

But once he is saved, he better:

“…continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel…” (Colossians 1:23)

Because:

“…faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” (James 2:17)

Well, but he will, because, having been born again of the Spirit, and because of having this new spirit in him, even the Holy Spirit ~ given to Him by God's grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8), because of this, his will is then to do God's will. This is the natural result of being born again. We are God's creation, God's "workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them> (Ephesians 2:9-10).

Even so, just like Paul, we struggle against sin. Paul says:

"I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin."​

And then immediately after, he says ~ of himself and all of us who are born again and in Christ...

"There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."​

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; …and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” (1 John 3:9)

Ah. The problem for many, Michlah-Imla, is the sense in which John says 'doth not' and also 'cannot'... and even more importantly the latter... in 1 John 3:9. So here is the verse in the ESV:

"No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God."​

Point 1: That 'makes a practice' qualifier is very, very important... the person who makes a practice of sinning does so intentionally and is not repenting of his or her sin, and so is not born again of the Spirit.

Point 2: John means 'cannot' not in the wooden sense of not being able to do anything sinful, and therefore sinless, but rather in the sense of not wanting to keep on sinning, and battling or striving against sin, because he is penitent and wanting to please God... because he is of God, because God is his father, having been born again of the Spirit, and therefore loving Him and wanting to do God's will rather than the devil's (cf. John 8:44). John goes on to say in 1 John 4:19 that "we love because He first loved us."

So:

“…sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.” (John 5:14)

There are certainly consequences, even for born-again Christians, for sin. But there is condemnation no more. As John himself says in 1 John 1:8-9...

"If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, (God) is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."​

And why? Well, it is because we are born again, and thus in Christ. But still...

"If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."​

Now is this some kind of "license to sin"...? Of course not. Paul addresses that in Romans 6, saying...

"Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with Him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with Him in a death like His, we shall certainly be united with Him in a resurrection like His. We know that our old self was crucified with Him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with Him. We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over Him. For the death He died He died to sin, once for all, but the life He lives He lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace."​

Again, having been born again of the Spirit, we have this new spirit within us, even the Holy Spirit, and we strive against sin. Grace and peace to you.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

@PinSeeker

Practicing murder, or only committing occasional murder, is still evil with consequences.

In the world, it’s a prison sentence with a possible death penalty.

Spiritually, it’s eternal hell fire.

Whether “practiced” or occasionally done. Makes no difference.

David didn’t “practice” adultery, but he still suffered God’s punishment.

Stop talking yourself out of the clear teachings in scripture, or stop letting yourself being talked out them.

 

[PinSeeker]

@PinSeeker

Practicing murder, or only committing occasional murder, is still evil with consequences.

Sure.

Spiritually, it’s eternal hell fire.

Hmmm. So King David and the apostle Paul are both in hell? <chuckles>

Whether “practiced” or occasionally done. Makes no difference.

Sin is sin, for sure. But you mean 'practiced' in the wrong sense. It's not just in the wooden sense of being "done a large number of times"... <smile>... but rather done habitually and intentially, so walking in... dwelling in... sin, and therefore a slave to unrighteousness and therefore a child of wrath, even the devil, rather than a child of God. See above.

David didn’t “practice” adultery, but he still suffered God’s punishment.

Ah, well, right, I'm sure, so yes, consequences, in this life (as I said), but not eternal punishment... he was not condemned for any of his sin, and nor was Paul, and nor are we if we are born again of the Spirit and in Christ.

Stop talking yourself out of the clear teachings in scripture, or stop letting yourself being talked out them.

I'm certainly not; what I said above is very clear. You're just not... well... putting things... Scriptural things... together. It's not hard, it's all right there in front of you. You're just being... and I mean this respectfully, of course... very, very, very hard-headed. <smile> And you're not alone in that...

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Hmmm. So King David and the apostle Paul are both in hell? <chuckles>

Why would they be?

Is this subject funny to you?

 

[mailmandan]

A sinner needs no works to obtain salvation and have his past sins forgiven.

But once he is saved, he better:

“…continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel…” (Colossians 1:23)

Conditional confirmation that one's faith is firmly grounded in the hope of the gospel in the first place. Just as we see in 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 in which holding fast to the word (the gospel) which Paul preached unless you believed in vain (without cause or effect).

Because:

“…faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” (James 2:17)

Faith that remains alone "barren of works" is not genuine faith but a bare profession of faith. (James 2:14)

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; …and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” (1 John 3:9)

1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. Not sinless perfection.

So:

“…sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.” (John 5:14)

Not sinless perfection. This is a call to abandon a lifestyle of sin rather than a demand for absolute, flawless sinless perfection, 100% of the time. Do you still believe that you are sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, 100% of the time, exactly like Jesus Christ?

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Do you still believe that you are sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, 100% of the time, exactly like Jesus Christ?

I perceive that you are still a babe in Christ and that you do not spiritually comprehend what a sin really is according to all of the biblical examples strewn throughout the Bible.

That comment speaks volumes.

After all, if all believers sin every day without the possibility of a permanent restraint, do churches who believe this teaching do the following at every service:

“Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.” (1 Timothy 5:20)

I have never been to a church that follows this precept. Most Churches are an abomination. Filled with hypocrisy.

Church discipline would never cease if they practiced what they believed.

The carnal man cannot comprehend ceasing from sin because he is still in the sin nature.

Thus:

“Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray” (2 Peter 2:14-15)

You cannot cease from sin @mailmandan

So you make yourself the object of this scripture.

 

[mailmandan]

I perceive that you are still a babe in Christ and that you do not spiritually comprehend what a sin really is according to all of the biblical examples strewn throughout the Bible.

That comment speaks volumes.

After all, if all believers sin every day without the possibility of a permanent restraint, do churches who believe this teaching do the following at every service:

“Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.” (1 Timothy 5:20)

I have never been to a church that follows this precept. Most Churches are an abomination. Filled with hypocrisy.

Church discipline would never cease if they practiced what they believed.

The carnal man cannot comprehend ceasing from sin because he is still in the sin nature.

Thus:

“Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray” (2 Peter 2:14-15)

You cannot cease from sin @mailmandan

So you make yourself the object of this scripture.

Your perception is flawed and you remain just as deceived today as you were 4 years ago in post #196 from the link below.

(1) 1st problem with O.S.A.S. | Page 10 | Christian Forums @ Christianity Board 1st problem with O.S.A.S.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

 

[PeterAndroz]

Right. The calling of God and the gifts of the Spirit are irrevocable. And we are kept in the Spirit through faith by the power of the Spirit to the day of Christ. The good word that God began in us He will bring to completion at that day. If anyone "goes back" to dwelling in sin, he or she will prove never really having been born again of the Spirit, will prove that they are not of the people of God, which is what John says in 1 John 2:19. For those folks, as the writer of Hebrews says in Hebrews 3:12, their evil, unbelieving heart ~ their heart of stone never having been replaced by God with a heart of flesh, a new spirit given by God (Ezekiel 11:19-20 and 36:26-27) ~ will lead them to fall away. As Jesus tells Nicodemus in John 3, "...unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God... unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." But, thanks be to God, once he is born again... <smile> ...nothing ~ nothing ~ can separate him or her from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord (Romans 8:39).

Grace and peace to you, Peter.

Hey Peter, according to what you understand, can you list the verses you believe teach what you & I must do to become Eph 1:13, Eph 4:30 HS sealed