Daniel 9:25 - the messiah the prince

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

IndianaRob

Well-Known Member
Aug 7, 2023
2,278
954
113
55
Louisville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Grammar's rules are objective. Interpretation is subjective. Grammar's rules should be applied first, to maximize the probability of correct interpretation.
Fair enough on grammar, and I'm not brushing it aside. But let me show you what I mean by interpretation, because it isn't guesswork — it's not me making the text say whatever I want it to say.

I know you're talking about verse 26, but I'm using verse 27 to show how interpretation settles a point that grammar can't. My point all along has been that the person there is Christ, and here's why.

The Bible never mentions “the antichrist” making a covenant with many, or with anybody? You can't confirm something that was never made in the first place.

Did Jesus make a covenant with many? Yes.

Did Jesus' death cause the sacrifices to cease? Yes.

So when I get to that "he," I'm not guessing. Everything the verse describes is something Christ actually did. Why would I read it as anyone else?

Grammar can't prove it. That can.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CTK and covenantee

covenantee

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2022
8,046
3,573
113
75
Canada
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Fair enough on grammar, and I'm not brushing it aside. But let me show you what I mean by interpretation, because it isn't guesswork — it's not me making the text say whatever I want it to say.

I know you're talking about verse 26, but I'm using verse 27 to show how interpretation settles a point that grammar can't. My point all along has been that the person there is Christ, and here's why.

The Bible never mentions “the antichrist” making a covenant with many, or with anybody? You can't confirm something that was never made in the first place.

Did Jesus make a covenant with many? Yes.

Did Jesus' death cause the sacrifices to cease? Yes.

So when I get to that "he," I'm not guessing. Everything the verse describes is something Christ actually did. Why would I read it as anyone else?

Grammar can't prove it. That can.
History proves it, and grammar proves it because the grammatical referent/antecedent of "he" is Messiah the Prince.
 
  • Like
Reactions: IndianaRob

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
17,970
7,252
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Wrong Jews. Wrong Judea. Wrong City. Wrong Temple. Spiritual Discerned. :laughing:
Another lame response. You know you have NOTHING, so you respond with NOTHING. Nowhere in scripture does it ever refer to a spiritual Judea. A heavenly Jerusalem, yes. But, that's not Judea. Thankfully, the Christians in earthly Judea didn't spiritualize everything like you do and they heeded Jesus's warning and fled to the mountains to avoid God's wrath that came upon the Jews in Judea and within Jerusalem in 70 AD.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CTK and covenantee

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
17,970
7,252
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
To me it seems that @TribulationSigns thinks if you spiritualize it’s the best way to interpret and if it causes contradiction with other scripture you just keep changing spiritual meanings until it works. But, whatever verses lead him to that conclusion most likely weren’t spiritualized in the first place, which would contradict his own hermeneutics.
Right. It's like a domino effect for him. Once he started spiritualizing the temple referenced in Matthew 24:1-2/Mark 13:1-2/Luke 21:5-6, he had to spiritualize Matthew 24:15-22/Mark 13:14-20/Luke 21:20-24 to avoid creating contradictions and then he just keeps spiritualizing almost every verse he comes across.
 

IndianaRob

Well-Known Member
Aug 7, 2023
2,278
954
113
55
Louisville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Allow me to remind you of something you probably already know , or maybe dont know .
Have you ever wondered why on earth we have so many end time t heologies
and yet they confused .
Allow me to show you what GOD told me the very day i first began to get on the computer .
Now this was after ab out five years of bible reading daily .
I got a free computer . So i decided hey i wanna go see if i can find me some christains on the computer .
SO i found a site . I went on . And over the next few weeks
i seen t eachings all over the place that not only had i never seen or heard of
BU TTHEY all were off in their theologies and their end time propheices .
SO then it was i suddenly thought HOW on earth is this possible .
THEN a real small voice pricked my conscious with a question and a statment .
And it said , THE reason this is that they cannot graps the truth and teach contradictions
IS because they ALREADY have omitted some of the basic teachings of What JESUS taught .
SO i then began to remind them of many things JESUS had said .
AND YOU KNOW what , that small voice was RIGHT . THEY made reason for why they did not
keep such things . One said this , another said that .
IT became plain as day , THE REASON they cannot SEE , is because THEY were indoctrinated
by whatever man taught whatever satisifed their own lusts desires . THEY came to another jesus friend .
We need to get people back into the bible to learn all things JESUS did teach
and later the apostels would expound upon in their letters to them churches .
SEE exactly what JESUS or jesus we been loving on all along . was it of men that omitted some of his teachings
in favor of their own d esires , OR is it the WORDS of THE ONE TRUE JESUS we been loving all along .
That's true, and another reason is because they won't accept weeks as weeks. Daniel is hard to figure out so most people hit the commentaries and books which sways them into a very specific direction instead of being patient and letting God reveal it to them in the Bible.

They think,or in my opinion have been taught, that the prophecy is about fixing the temple to the timing of Jesus. But what it's actually about is the end of earthly Jerusalem, the Old Covenant, and the law, and the beginning of heavenly Jerusalem.
 
  • Like
Reactions: covenantee and CTK

TribulationSigns

Well-Known Member
May 1, 2023
2,846
1,012
113
57
Somewhere west of Mississippi River
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I would ask that you go back and read post # 175 and #176. And should you like to do some further research on you own, I would recommend you take these four verses in 24 -27 and prepare your own chiasitic structure. You will definitely find it can only be interpreted one way.
I already explained verses many times. You guys dont like hearing this. No spiritual ears.
 

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
13,208
4,152
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Thankfully, the Christians in earthly Judea didn't spiritualize everything like you do and they heeded Jesus's warning and fled to the mountains to avoid God's wrath that came upon the Jews in Judea and within Jerusalem in 70 AD.
Reformed Preterism In 70AD fulfillment is "False"

Daniel's AOD Matt 24:15, Those fleeing to the mountains Matt 24:16, and The Great Tribulation Matt 24:21 are future events unfulfilled

Jesus Is The Lord
 

jeffweeder

Well-Known Member
Jul 6, 2007
1,522
1,351
113
63
South Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
24 “Seventy weeks [of years, or 490 years] have been decreed for your people and for your holy city (Jerusalem), to finish the transgression, to make an end of sins, to make atonement (reconciliation) for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness (right-standing with God), to seal up vision and prophecy and prophet, and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

7 and 62 weeks until the Messiah arrives,

1 week left for Messiah to bear fruit and fulfill v24.

He completed the work God sent him to do. Jn 17.

25 So you are to know and understand that from the issuance of the command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until [the coming of] the Messiah (the Anointed One), the Prince, there will be seven weeks [of years] and sixty-two weeks [of years];

Anointed at his baptism to begin his ministry of reconciliation
 

David in NJ

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2021
16,877
9,319
113
51
Denville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
24 “Seventy weeks [of years, or 490 years] have been decreed for your people and for your holy city (Jerusalem), to finish the transgression, to make an end of sins, to make atonement (reconciliation) for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness (right-standing with God), to seal up vision and prophecy and prophet, and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

7 and 62 weeks until the Messiah arrives,

1 week left for Messiah to bear fruit and fulfill v24.

He completed the work God sent him to do. Jn 17.

25 So you are to know and understand that from the issuance of the command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until [the coming of] the Messiah (the Anointed One), the Prince, there will be seven weeks [of years] and sixty-two weeks [of years];

Anointed at his baptism to begin his ministry of reconciliation
9:24 was FULFILLED by the LORD in His First Coming = Read the Gospel, Acts , Hebrews , Romans , Galatians , Ephesians , Revelation

The FIRST Half of the 70th Week = FULFILLED = 1 Corinthians ch15 , Acts , Gospel

Hebrews 9:23-28

Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— 26He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

1 Corinthians 15:20-23

But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
 

covenantee

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2022
8,046
3,573
113
75
Canada
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Reformed Preterism In 70AD fulfillment is "False"

Daniel's AOD Matt 24:15, Those fleeing to the mountains Matt 24:16, and The Great Tribulation Matt 24:21 are future events unfulfilled

Jesus Is The Lord
So you believe that the Judaean Christians who fled were reformed preterists. :laughing:

What did they do to become reformed preterists? :laughing:
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Spiritual Israelite

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
17,970
7,252
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Reformed Preterism In 70AD fulfillment is "False"

Daniel's AOD Matt 24:15, Those fleeing to the mountains Matt 24:16, and The Great Tribulation Matt 24:21 are future events unfulfilled
Dispensational futurism is false. The Christians in Judea fled to the mountains before Jerusalem and the buildings of the second temple were destroyed just as Jesus warned them to do.

Jesus Is The Lord
Yes, He is. At least you have that right.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CTK and covenantee

claninja

Active Member
Dec 11, 2022
716
140
43
the south
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Paul’s argument in Galatians 4 does not contradict what I said. It actually proves the distinction I am making

You said earlier that the old covenant woman REPRESENTATION cannot be brought into new covenant times. That statement contradicts Paul in Galatians 4.

Paul is not saying that Hagar herself has somehow been carried forward into the New Covenant.
No one’s arguing this. I think your ChatGPT generated response is confused.

he is identifying the Jerusalem of his present day with the covenant system represented by Hagar and Sinai

Agreed, I already said this. He is using the real, physical city of Jerusalem that existed in his day, with all of its temple cultic worship, as a representation of the mosaic law and those in bondage to it.


not declaring that Hagar has become part of the New Covenant.

I never said this. Your ChatGPT response is confused or not getting the full context of our discussion. Always make sure to feed full context plus proof read it.

I never said an Old Covenant figure cannot be used symbolically in New Covenant times. Of course Paul does that.

Yes, you did:

You cannot bring an Old Covenant Woman representation, into New Covenant times.
 

claninja

Active Member
Dec 11, 2022
716
140
43
the south
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Grammar doesn’t tell you, it’s left open to interpretation on purpose in my opinion. This is done all over the Bible, at least in the King James Bible it is.

In the masoretic text, neither grammar nor context specifically indicate that the prince of 26b is a different entity from the prince of 25. - “the people of the prince to come will destroy the city and sanctuary. “

Now, if you look to the Greek text of the theodotion LXX, the grammar does make it more clear that the prince of 26b is not the Christ, as the verse says - he (Christ being the most likely antecedent) will destroy the city and sanctuary with the coming prince.

In the Old Greek manuscript of the LXX, Prince isn’t even mentioned in 26b. Instead it says “the kingdom of the nations will destroy the city and sanctuary with the Christ”.

Imho, either way you slice it, the Christ/annointed is involved in the city and sanctuary’s destruction.
 
  • Like
Reactions: IndianaRob

IndianaRob

Well-Known Member
Aug 7, 2023
2,278
954
113
55
Louisville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
In the masoretic text, neither grammar nor context specifically indicate that the prince of 26b is a different entity from the prince of 25. - “the people of the prince to come will destroy the city and sanctuary. “

Now, if you look to the Greek text of the theodotion LXX, the grammar does make it more clear that the prince of 26b is not the Christ, as the verse says - he (Christ being the most likely antecedent) will destroy the city and sanctuary with the coming prince.

In the Old Greek manuscript of the LXX, Prince isn’t even mentioned in 26b. Instead it says “the kingdom of the nations will destroy the city and sanctuary with the Christ”.

Imho, either way you slice it, the Christ/annointed is involved in the city and sanctuary’s destruction.
I agree it was ultimately Christ.
 

TribulationSigns

Well-Known Member
May 1, 2023
2,846
1,012
113
57
Somewhere west of Mississippi River
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You said earlier that the old covenant woman REPRESENTATION cannot be brought into new covenant times. That statement contradicts Paul in Galatians 4.

Facepalm. Here you go again.

You have misunderstood what I meant by the “woman” representation in Galatians 4.

I am not saying that Paul cannot use the woman imagery in the New Covenant era. He obviously does. My point is that the covenant represented by the woman changes at the Cross.

Paul gives us two women representing two covenants:

“For these are the two covenants…” — Galatians 4:24

The woman associated with the present Jerusalem represents the Jews who were still practicing under Mosaic covenant, despite being expired at the Cross, which Paul describes as being “in bondage with her children” (Gal. 4:25). But the woman associated with the Jerusalem above represents the New Covenant Church, which is “free” (Gal. 4:26).

So there is no contradiction.

The woman is not permanently locked to the Old Covenant. Rather, the woman is the covenant-community representation, and her covenantal identity is determined by which covenant she represents.

The transition occurs through the death of Christ. Remember, in Hebrews tells us that Christ is the Mediator of the New Covenant, and that His death brought about the redemption necessary for those UNDER the first covenant (Heb. 9:15). Christ also said that His blood was shed FOR the New Covenant (Luke 22:20).

Therefore, after the Cross, the covenantal representation of God's Kingdom is no longer vested in the Old Testament congregation as it was before Christ. Christ took the Kingdom representation from those who rejected Him and gave it to a people producing its fruits (Matt. 21:43). The New Testament congregation therefore becomes the covenant congregation represented by the free woman.

This is precisely why Paul can use the woman imagery in Galatians 4 during the New Covenant age. The imagery has not disappeared; rather, the covenantal identity represented by the woman has been revealed in its New Covenant fulfillment.

And this also explains Romans 11.

The unbelieving Jews who had been part of the Old covenant according to the flesh did not suddenly cease to exist as Jews when Christ established the New Covenant. Paul says that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in” (Rom. 11:25).

Meanwhile, Gentile believers are being grafted into the covenantal olive tree (Rom. 11:17–24).

But notice what Paul does not say. He does not say that the Old Covenant must continue as a valid covenant in order for unbelieving Jews to remain present during the New Covenant age. Nor does he say that a physical temple, physical Jerusalem, or the Mosaic covenant must continue in force to prove that Israel remained in some kind of Old Covenant status until 70AD or the rest of New Testament period. Not happening!

The people, however, remain, but the covenant administration has changed. They just are spiritually blinded as a judgment until fullness of Gentiles Christians are coming in. That means SOME Jews will be allowed to be added to it, and the rest of Jews who still practice Old Covenant are blind forever.

That distinction is critical.

The Old Covenant congregation once occupied the covenantal position and represented God's Kingdom. But when the Messiah came, the Kingdom was taken from that unfaithful administration and given to the people who would produce its fruits (Matt. 21:43). The New Covenant congregation now occupies that covenantal position.

Therefore, when Paul speaks of the two women in Galatians 4, he is not teaching that the Old Covenant itself continues alongside the New Covenant throughout the New Testament age. He is contrasting the Old Covenant community in bondage with the New Covenant community that is free.

The woman imagery continues, but the covenantal administration she represents has changed. Get it?

So there is no contradiction in saying that the Old Covenant woman cannot continue as the covenantal representative of God's Kingdom after Christ, while also saying that Paul uses the woman imagery in the New Covenant era.

The imagery remains. The covenantal identity it represents has changed.

And Romans 11 does not require the physical temple, physical Jerusalem, or the Mosaic covenant to continue. It simply describes the unbelief of part of Israel while Gentiles are being grafted into the covenant people through faith in Christ.



No one’s arguing this. I think your ChatGPT generated response is confused.

ChatGPT?? LOL.

Agreed, I already said this. He is using the real, physical city of Jerusalem that existed in his day, with all of its temple cultic worship, as a representation of the mosaic law and those in bondage to it.

Rolling eyes.

I never said this. Your ChatGPT response is confused or not getting the full context of our discussion. Always make sure to feed full context plus proof read it.

I think I have explained this enough that you don't like to hear.

Yes, you did:

Read again. :p