The good man that turned bad out of necessity

[Riven]

I never delivered a sermon urging my listeners, male or female, to go and do bad things. The thought of doing so never would have occurred to me.

I'm not saying that people should do bad things. I'm saying they should be prepared to do bad things if it's ever necessary.

I’m sure you’ve heard Jesus say, “Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.” The Golden Rule.

“Do (or be willing to do) bad things to others as you would have others do (or be willing to do) bad things unto you”?

But we live in the real world, Matthias. Using the golden rule principle would lead to entire countries falling apart.

Jesus calls his followers out of the world. The Christian man should think and act as Jesus does, not as the world does. In other words, do the works of Jesus, not the works of the world.

What does that entail? Realistically, should we have allowed the Nazis or communists to just have their way with Europe for fear of breaking the golden rule?

 

[Matthias]

I'm not saying that people should do bad things. I'm saying they should be prepared to do bad things if it's ever necessary.

Is that what you hear Jesus teaching his followers?

But we live in the real world, Matthias. Using the golden rule principle would lead to entire countries falling apart.

All countries are falling apart. Teaching and modeling the Golden Rule is what followers of Jesus are called to do.

What does that entail?

Suffering.

Realistically, should we have allowed the Nazis or communists to just have their way with Europe for fear of breaking the golden rule?

Government isn’t tasked with obeying the Golden Rule. Followers of Jesus are.

 

[Matthias]

Realistically, should we have allowed the Nazis or communists to just have their way with Europe for fear of breaking the golden rule?

Let’s rewrite your good question, putting it in a 2nd century Christian context:

Realistically, should we [followers of Jesus] have allowed the pagan Romans to just have their way with the world for fear of breaking the Golden Rule?

What is our witness?

 

[Debp]

I'm not saying that people should do bad things. I'm saying they should be prepared to do bad things if it's ever necessary.

In the case of something like mass shootings, recently an armed citizen shot the shooter so stopped him from killing and injuring more people. So even though some might not agree with shooting someone else, sometimes it is necessary. In order to protect others or yourself.

 

[Matthias]

In the case of something like mass shootings, recently an armed citizen shot the shooter so stopped him from killing and injuring more people. So even though some might not agree with shooting someone else, sometimes it is necessary. In order to protect others or yourself.

Did Jesus and the apostles stop bad men from killing and injuring more people?

 

[Debp]

Did Jesus and the apostles?

Corrie Ten Boom didn't obey the Nazis. She hid Jews.

 

[Matthias]

Corrie Ten Boom didn't obey the Nazis. She hid Jews.

Yes. Why didn’t she kill the Nazis?

Remember this teaching: “You aren’t following Jesus if you aren’t armed, ready to kill.”

 

[Matthias]

US military chaplains are prohibited from bearing weapons and from killing.

@Riven do you understand why they aren’t “armed, ready to kill”?

 

[Riven]

US military chaplains are prohibited from bearing weapons and from killing.

@Riven do you understand why they aren’t “armed, ready to kill”?

Do you understand that the majority of men that fought and killed the Nazis in WW2 were Christian?

Think about how your golden rule applies to reality. If we had taken this approach, the Nazis would have likely won the war and European Jews wouldn't exist today.

I have to wonder what you would have said to those starving in the concentration camps at the time.

"Sorry about your bad luck, but I'm not willing to get my hands dirty on your behalf. My eternal soul is on the line, you see? So you're just gonna have to suck it up."

@Debp posted a great example of the man who stopped the mass shooter. I don't know what the guy believes, but I've yet to find anyone, Christian or otherwise, that has said he was in the wrong for putting a stop to that evil.

Is it technically wrong? Sure. He murdered a man for the greater good. It's still murder, but it was for the right reasons. Namely to save the lives of others.

 

[Matthias]

Do you understand that the majority of men that fought and killed the Nazis in WW2 were Christian?

Yes.

Think about how your golden rule applies to reality. If we had taken this approach, the Nazis would have likely won the war and European Jews wouldn't exist today.

Jesus’ Golden Rule isn’t divorced from reality.

I have to wonder what you would have said to those starving in the concentration camps at the time.

"Sorry about your bad luck, but I'm not willing to get my hands dirty on your behalf. My eternal soul is on the line, you see? So you're just gonna have to suck it up."

Do you wonder what Jesus would have said to them? If you don’t, you should.

@Debp posted a great example of the man who stopped the mass shooter. I don't know what the guy believes, but I've yet to find anyone, Christian or otherwise, that has said he was in the wrong for putting a stop to that evil.

He was wrong for disobeying the teaching and example of Jesus and the apostles.

Is it technically wrong? Sure.

You know what he did was wrong.

He murdered a man for the greater good. It's still murder, but it was for the right reasons. Namely to save the lives of others.

Murder is condemned in scripture.

Jesus and the apostles didn’t murder, for any reason.

 

[Matthias]

US military chaplains are prohibited from bearing weapons and from killing.

@Riven do you understand why they aren’t “armed, ready to kill”?

@Riven it isn’t clear to me from your reply whether or not you understand why military chaplains aren’t “armed, ready to kill.”

Would you put your questions to them that you put to me?

 

[Matthias]

Because he's not a man if he's unwilling to do bad things.

Desmond Doss. That Medal of Honor he’s wearing says otherwise.

Desmond Doss is a man. He wasn’t willing to do bad things, and didn’t.

P.S.

Doss was a pacifist, and he was one of the bravest men who ever lived.

The false teacher labeled him a coward. Do you?

 

[Matthias]

Because he's not a man if he's unwilling to do bad things.

Another member of the forum put it this way -> such a person is “man in form, not substance.”

Is that how you view me? (That member does.)

Is that how you view Desmond Doss? (That member does.)

Is that how you view the apostles? (That member refused to say.)

 

[Matthias]

Should Christians be willing to do bad things?

AI Overview -

“No, Christians should not be willing to do bad things. Christian teachings in the Bible strictly command believers to reject evil, pursue righteousness, and avoid doing wrong even if it leads to suffering.

Biblical Commands Against Doing Evil

• Clear prohibitions: Scripture explicitly tells believers not to pay back evil for evil or to do wrong to achieve a goal.

• The ‘ends do not justify the means’ : Christian ethics reject the idea that committing a sin or a bad act is acceptable even if a good result might come from it.

• Suffering over sin: Christian teaching states that it is better to suffer an injustice than to commit an injustice against someone else.

Human Failure and Repentance

•The reality of sin: While Christians are called to be holy, theologians note that believers still make mistakes and struggle with bad desires because they are human.

• Not an excuse: Doing bad things is never endorsed as a Christian duty or privilege; rather, when a Christian does wrong, they are expected to confess, repent, and change their behavior.”

Don’t take AI’s word for it. Search the scriptures.

 

[Riven]

Jesus’ Golden Rule isn’t divorced from reality.

I think it is.

Do you wonder what Jesus would have said to them? If you don’t, you should.

They didn't need words at the time. They needed soldiers that weren't afraid to kill the enemy.

He was wrong for disobeying the teaching and example of Jesus and the apostles.

It was necessary.

Another member of the forum put it this way -> such a person is “man in form, not substance.”

Is that how you view me? (That member does.)

Is that how you view Desmond Doss? (That member does.)

Is that how you view the apostles? (That member refused to say.)

I dont know you or Desmond Doss personally. That being said, I think if all men were contentious objectors like him, we wouldn't have a military. We wouldn't have a country either because we never would have gained independence from the British. We also would have never stopped Hitler. Jews wouldn't be an extinct race in Europe, and who knows what else.

To bring it back to the beginning of our discussion, I believe Christians should be willing to do what is necessary for the greater good. That includes going against the golden rule.

 

[Matthias]

I think it is.

I appreciate your candidness but I’m deeply concerned that you think the word / teaching of Jesus is divorced from reality. Have you discussed it with another pastor?

The apostles didn’t think his word / teaching is divorced from reality. They were willing to die for the reality, and did.

They didn't need words at the time.

People need the Messiah’s words / teaching at all times. The Jews cut themselves off from Jesus and his words.

They needed soldiers that weren't afraid to kill the enemy.

They asked the question, “Where was God?” I tell you what I tell them, God was there.

It was necessary.

It’s never necessary for a follower of Jesus to disobey his teaching and not follow his example. Disobeying his teaching and not following his example is what unbelievers do.

I dont know you or Desmond Doss personally.

But you know some important things about us.

That being said, I think if all men were contentious objectors like him, we wouldn't have a military.

Hold on to that thought.

We wouldn't have a country either because we never would have gained independence from the British.

Our country would be Britain. How does rebelling against the government fit with Paul’s instruction on how Christians are to relate to the government?

We also would have never stopped Hitler.

“We” doesn’t include you and I.

Jews wouldn't be an extinct race in Europe, and who knows what else.

God has severely punished the unbelieving Jews on numerous occasions, but God will never allow the Jews to become extinct.

To bring it back to the beginning of our discussion, I believe Christians should be willing to do what is necessary for the greater good. That includes going against the golden rule.

You’ve made that clear to me. Thank you.

You might or might not remember me telling you before you became a Christian that my favorite passage of scripture is Luke 6:40 - “A pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher.”

I believe going against the Golden Rule is going against my teacher -> Jesus.

 

[Matthias]

@Riven it isn’t clear to me from your reply whether or not you understand why military chaplains aren’t “armed, ready to kill.”

It goes back to the development of Just War theory @Riven.

Why does Just War theory exclude clergy from killing?

AI Overview -

“Just War theory excludes clergy from killing because priests and clerics are strictly bound to a spiritual role. By functioning as ministers of the sacraments and the Gospel, their primary obligation is to mediate peace and divine grace, making participation in warfare inherently contradictory to their sacred duties.

The exclusion of clergy from combat is deeply rooted in this historical and theological decelopment:

• Separation of the Sacred and the Secular: Early church fathers initially debated whether Christians could serve as soldiers at all. As the theory evolved, theologians like St. Augustine acknowledged the necessity of defending the state. However, a fundamental distinction was drawn between the temporal duties of lay rulers and the spiritual duties of religious teachers.

• The Ministerial Role: Ordained clergy act in persona Christi (in the person of Christ) to bring spiritual healing, reconciliation, and the Eucharist to the faithful. Wielding weapons and taking human life is fundamentally incompatible with the office of a peacemaker and minister of God’s grace.

• Avoidance of Irregularity: In canon law - particularly within the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox traditions - clergy are subject to an ‘irregularity’ that prevents them from exercising their priestly functions if they shed human blood. Even in times of self-defense or justified wars, participating in bloodshed is considered a spiritual impediment.

• Pastoral Duty to Both Sides: Clergy are tasked with the spiritual care of all people, including enemy combatants. Taking up arms would destroy their role as a neutral, pastoral presence and theor ability to offer last rites and comfort to dying soldiers on both sides of a conflict.

While Just War framework provides moral criteria for a state to defend itself, it simultaneously maintains that the individuals consecrated to holy orders must remain non-combatants dedicated exclusively to spiritual duties.”

Allow me to simplify it. They are a different class of Christian from everyone else. Holy men, you see, don’t kill their enemies.

Do you see a problem with that?

Have you heard of the priesthood of all believers?

 

[Debp]

He was wrong for disobeying the teaching and example of Jesus and the apostles.

You are talking about the citizen who recently saved other lives by shooting at the mass shooter. (I see now the mass shooter died of a self inflicted gunshot.). The mass shooter had already killed three and injured several more.

I think the armed citizen saved other lives. If your family was under attack and an armed citizen saved them, I think you would be grateful. If not I wonder if you are human.

 

[Debp]

Holy men, you see, don’t kill their enemies.

I think if a clergyman saw others being murdered in front of him and he had access to a weapon, I think he would try to help the innocent who were being shot. Even if it meant just wounding the mass shooter.

Things in real life happen fast. You never know what you might do to save someone else.

 

[Matthias]

You are talking about the citizen who recently saved other lives by shooting at the mass shooter. (I see now the mass shooter died of a self inflicted gunshot.). The mass shooter had already killed three and injured several more.

I think the armed citizen saved other lives. If your family was under attack and an armed citizen saved them, I think you would be grateful. If not I wonder if you are human.

I’m human. I would be grateful to God for saving my family.