Reviving Biblical Christianity (The Way) Part 2

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Laurina

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That’s a good one! It’s everywhere you look isn’t it…?

edit: was a response to laurina

Gen 2:10
And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.

Verses 11-14 gives the names of these rivers and their descriptions. Verse 11 describes the Pison River...I watched a YouTube documentary on the search for this river. (It's all dried up now...but it was there and it contained gold!!) It's a very good and interesting documentary and it explains much!

Noah had 3 sons that populated the earth after the flood.

Gen 9: 25-27
25And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.
26And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
27God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.


Shem, Japheth, and Ham, (who is the father of Canaan) represent the 3 destinies that are saved, they live. The 4th destiny that die (lake of fire) are represented by all the people that died in the flood.
Shem in Hebrew means "name"... represent the saints who carry God’s name (no longer I who live but Christ lives in me.)
Japheth means "widespreading" and represents the nations as in the righteous whom the saints rule over.
Ham means "hot" (Canaan means "merchant" and "to subdue") and he represents the filthy, the flesh that needs to be subdued.

There is much, much more...perhaps tomorrow I may continue, but now I say goodnight! :)
 

Marvelloustime

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What a narrow road it is indeed dear sister . and anyone whose faith be NOT ON Jesus the Christ
well they aint on it . He thinks its pride to claim and proclaim the dire necessity to Beleive on JESUS the CHRIST .
I say its pride to NOT BELIEVE ON HIM and preach a message that makes FAITH N CHRIST seem as RELIGOIUS dogma .
The man is every bit guilty of what he is trying to accuse us of my sister .
@amigo de christo
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Marvelloustime

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What a narrow road it is indeed dear sister . and anyone whose faith be NOT ON Jesus the Christ
well they aint on it . He thinks its pride to claim and proclaim the dire necessity to Beleive on JESUS the CHRIST .
I say its pride to NOT BELIEVE ON HIM and preach a message that makes FAITH N CHRIST seem as RELIGOIUS dogma .
The man is every bit guilty of what he is trying to accuse us of my sister .
@amigo de christo
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Episkopos

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Again, you have given us a wedding illustration and expected everyone to bow before a doctrine the text never states.

Yes, a bride and wedding guests are distinct figures in a wedding scene. A five-year-old can see that.

EXACTLY! You are among the first to acknowledge what a 5 year old would see.

Ok, let's see if you can track what say a 10 year old would see.
What you have not shown is that those figures represent two permanent classes of redeemed people with different levels of salvation. That conclusion is yours, not Scripture’s.

The conclusion comes straight from the bible. Let me walk you through it. I owe you that much because you pass the 5 year old test.

Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.


9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Notice that being called to the wedding feast is to fill God's house with guests. When a guest presumes to be in the bridal party...without the appropriate garment, he is cast into outer darkness (as MANY modern believers will be). If the guest had stayed in his proper place he would not have been rejected. Just like when the Pharisees claimed to see when they couldn't. Jesus says because you say you see your sin (iniquity) remains. The same goes for the rejected guest. It's easy to be a guest. Guests are a mixture of bad and good...not holy. But the eternal destiny of outer darkness is for any who claim something for themselves that isn't true. My ministry is to avoid this scenario among the humble teachable ones.




Revelation 19:7–9 mentions the Lamb’s wife and those called to the marriage supper, but it never says the guests are lesser Christians, “righteous” but not “holy,” or people with a different eternal destiny. You are counting characters in an illustration and pretending each one creates a new class in eternity.

A bride is not a guest and vice versa. Any 5 year old knows that.
By that method, John the Baptist must belong to another eternal caste because he called himself “the friend of the bridegroom” (John 3:29). Perhaps you will soon discover separate heavens for the bride, the guests, the friend of the bridegroom, the virgins, and whoever served the food. Your system can multiply classes faster than Scripture can name them.

John came by the way of righteousness. Jesus came to open up the way of holiness.
Your use of “the righteous scarcely be saved” is just as careless. First Peter 4:18 does not say righteous people barely scrape into salvation while an elite group called “saints” receives a superior salvation. Peter is speaking about suffering and God’s judgment beginning at His own house:

The saints rule over the righteous saved of the nations in the next age. The saints are citizens of the holy city....where no one can enter unless they are a saint. There are gates that keep out the righteous AND the filthy who make a lie.

And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. Rev 21:24

Only the kings (saints) of the earth are allowed into the holy city. Holiness is about GLORY...and God has MERCY on the righteous.

When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. 2 Thess 1:10

But my testimony is not being believed by very many




“For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God” (1 Peter 4:17).

First resurrection unto honour and disgrace.

2nd resurrection for life or death.
The rest is SO FULL of error that one would have to explain too much for this forum.
 
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Lizbeth

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Nobody is arguing that every person sees and understands everything Scripture teaches. The religious leaders missed what the Old Testament said about Christ, but Jesus and the apostles were still able to show those truths from the Scriptures.

That is the point you keep avoiding. It is not enough to say that some people cannot “see” your interpretation. You still have to show that your interpretation is actually in the text.

The blindness of the Pharisees does not prove that the wilderness generation represents the old man, their children represent the new man, Jordan represents a second baptism, or Canaan represents entire sanctification. Those claims must still be demonstrated from Scripture.

Ephesians 4:13 does not teach otherwise. Paul is speaking about the body growing into unity, maturity, and the fulness of Christ through the ministry described in the surrounding verses. He is not saying that interpretations which cannot be proven from the text should be accepted because the church has not yet reached perfect unity.

Saying that others cannot “see” something is not biblical proof. I don't see it because it is not there. I am actually showing you from the actual Bible what it says so you can see it. Show where Scripture gives those meanings. That is still the unanswered question.
A parable itself is its own prooftext I think but we need to be able to "see" it. The new testament doesn't explain and expound all the symbolism/parables of the old testament....or even all the parables of the new testament. They need to be revealed by the Holy Spirit. It is a matter of seeing.

But what we are talking about here is in line with other scriptures, and there are so many scriptures that speak to this same theme it’s hard to know where to start.

First of all we need to remember these things are a matter of faith, not sight…..so not necessarily certainty of the carnal mind. We, in the flesh, are always wanting black and white certainty. But the Israelites crossed the Jordan by believing , having faith in, God’s promise, not by having a logical certainty based on logical reasons that they could defeat the enemies there. I believe when Jesus obeyed the Father unto death on the cross, He did it by faith, not by a carnal minded certainty that He would be resurrected again. He had to overcome His natural instincts for self-preservation in order to surrender to the will of the Father and be able to say, “nevertheless not my will but thine be done”.


Jhn 12:24-25

Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.


Mat 10:38-39

Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.


This is seen in the OT account of bondslaves. A bondslave is one who having served for the mandatory time and then is freed, returns to the Master out of love, no longer under compulsion, and because his life (wife/children) is with the Master. He has no life left in this world apart from the Master. So then he covenants to remain serving the Master for the rest of his days by having his ear pierced to the Master’s doorpost. This is very reminiscent of the cross. Think it also speaks to listening at the Master’s doorpost…..hearing/obeying the Shepherd’s voice. Mary called herself a bondslave….covenanting to bear and give birth to the Son. Paul also at some point called himself a bondslave.


Exo 21:1-6

“Now these are the ordinances which you are to set before them:

“If you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve for six years; but on the seventh he shall go out as a free man without payment.

“If he comes alone, he shall go out alone; if he is the husband of a wife, then his wife shall go out with him.

“If his master gives him a wife, and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall belong to her master, and he shall go out alone.

“But if the slave plainly says, ‘I love my master, my wife and my children; I will not go out as a free man,’

then his master shall bring him to God, then he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him permanently.



The idea of a complete surrender/consecration, giving up our rights to ourself so to speak, and it costing all that we have and are in this world to follow Jesus is seen here also:


Mat 13:44-46

Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.

Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:

Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.


Mat 19:16-26

And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.



Being a rich man is alluding to having our own life, autonomy, possessions and concerns and goals in this world, not necessarily being rich financially. Seems to me that in following/obeying the Lord we are on a journey of losing all that we have and are in this world in order to become living sacrifices and gain Christ and eternal life.
 

Lizbeth

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This is false. The filthy are those who soil holiness. The wicked are those who love unrighteousness. And both of these categorizes include MANY believers in our time.

What I teach is that we should AT LEAST be as the righteous...if not be among the holy. Jesus taught that...at least giving the talent we have been given to the money-changers.
These are the scriptures I was thinking of. Who are the filthy? Simply fallen unredeemed man from what I could find (and of course it would include those who have fallen away).


Job 15:14-16

What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?

Behold, he putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight.

How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity like water?


Psa 14:1-3

[[To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.]] The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.


Psa 53:3

Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.


Isa 64:6

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.


Zec 3:3-4

Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.

And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.



In that Rev verse we're talking about, it looks to me that there are two groups, the redeemed and the unredeemed......the unjust are being contrasted with the righteous (who are the just/redeemed), and the filthy are in contrast with the holy (who are clean/pure/redeemed). Scripture very often conveys the same idea twice for a kind of emphasis, but also possibly for nuance at times too I believe. (And like Peter I think we should not call unclean what God has cleansed. I hope you are not calling believers who are not yet "perfected" unjust and filthy, or am I misunderstanding....? That would only apply to those who have fallen away and gone back to wallowing in the mire.)
 

Lizbeth

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You say this because you always need to be half-right. And you only allow others to be only half-right too. This is a pride issue that you need help with. The very silly notion that I need help for your difficulties with the truth display that I am a mirror here. People always see themselves in my exposing their darkness.


Amen


Amen again. But we are talking about a man who looks down on intelligence as getting in the way of a robotic belief. He thinks God is looking for robot-type people that continually recite the same mantra over and over again without any intelligence. But that is false...a myth. And I'm a myth-buster. :)

In your case your cleverness gets in the way of a true humility. Agreed. Maybe you should try becoming weak and a fool in order that you may be wise.

1Co 13:1-2

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not love, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not love, I am nothing.
 
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MostlyConfused

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Gen 2:10
And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.

Verses 11-14 gives the names of these rivers and their descriptions. Verse 11 describes the Pison River...I watched a YouTube documentary on the search for this river. (It's all dried up now...but it was there and it contained gold!!) It's a very good and interesting documentary and it explains much!

Noah had 3 sons that populated the earth after the flood.

Gen 9: 25-27
25And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.
26And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
27God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.


Shem, Japheth, and Ham, (who is the father of Canaan) represent the 3 destinies that are saved, they live. The 4th destiny that die (lake of fire) are represented by all the people that died in the flood.
Shem in Hebrew means "name"... represent the saints who carry God’s name (no longer I who live but Christ lives in me.)
Japheth means "widespreading" and represents the nations as in the righteous whom the saints rule over.
Ham means "hot" (Canaan means "merchant" and "to subdue") and he represents the filthy, the flesh that needs to be subdued.

There is much, much more...perhaps tomorrow I may continue, but now I say goodnight! :)
Oh…I will have to change my drawing. I made a drawing of what I learned. It makes no sense now with my drawing.
 

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ProDeo

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Most modern believers will fail every honesty test because the beliefs they hold are arrived at through dishonesty. And even when they SEE that they still cling to their dishonesty like a life raft for the outer man.

Any modern believers participating in this thread ?

Names ?

Maybe a number according to your conviction ?
 
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Lizbeth

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You offer to take me by the hand and teach me to read, yet you cannot take your own eyes through three plain passages without running away from them.

By all means, keep mocking. Perhaps if you mock loudly enough, 1 Corinthians 6:11 will rewrite itself and say, “such are some of you,” instead of “such were some of you.” Perhaps 1 John 3:10 will suddenly say that those who do not practice righteousness are a lower class of Christians instead of “not of God.” Perhaps Matthew 25:30 will turn “outer darkness” into reduced rewards.

Your doctrine needs that kind of miracle, because it certainly is not in the text.

You tell me to “seek the Lord and live,” but when the Lord’s written words are placed before you, you refuse to answer them. Jesus asked, “Why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?” (Luke 6:46). Invoking the Lord’s name while evading His Word is not spirituality. It is hypocrisy.

You have invented classes of regenerate people that Scripture never creates. You have filthy believers, wicked believers, righteous believers, and an elite holy class. Yet Paul says believers were washed, sanctified, and justified. John says the one who does not practice righteousness is not of God. Christ casts the unprofitable servant into outer darkness.

Those texts are not difficult to read. They are difficult for you to accept because they tear down your system.

So spare me the performance about my reading skills. You have not answered the Scriptures because you cannot answer them without abandoning your false teaching. Your sarcasm is loud, but your biblical case is silent.

Take your own advice. Seek the Lord, submit to what He actually said, and stop teaching what is not written.

This is for you:

Unfortunately this man so often doesn't respond to scriptures that people bring. If he is proven wrong on something with scripture, out come the claws and daggers....which also serves to distract and deflect from the fact that he was shown to be wrong. I see and experience no real love and care for souls here, only acceptance and love bombing for those who "agree" with him. It's too bad, because I believe the subject of holiness itself is one that is worth pursuing.
 

MostlyConfused

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I had a wonderful time here this morning and it was nice to meet markalan. I have to go to the department of motor vehicles and am full of dread.
 

ProDeo

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1 + 1 + 1+ 1 = 4

Rom 8:38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers,
nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 10

10 is more holy than 4 :Broadly:
 
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Episkopos

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Rom 8:38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers,
nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 10

10 is more holy than 4 :Broadly:
I checked your math and all seems in order. Now all you have to do is apply that same logical skill to reading words in the bible. So it takes both math skills AND reading skills. Good luck.
 

bdavidc

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Here's one (there are more, this is a huge study, but I'm in bed right now so you'll have to wait.):

2 Thess 1:10
When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Also, there are 2 judgments coming...the Bema Seat and the Great White Throne.

The Bema Seat is for the house of God in the first resurrection, (judgement begins in the house of God). There are 2 outcomes...honour or dishonour.

The Great White Throne judgement is for the nations. Again, 2 outcomes....life or death.

Now, 2 judgements with 2 outcomes each equals 4 possible destinies. Simple math with profound consequences.

Goodnight all! :)
Second Thessalonians 1:10 does not prove your doctrine. It actually works against it:

“When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe” (2 Thessalonians 1:10).

Paul is not identifying two classes of redeemed people. He is describing Christ’s coming in relation to His people. He will be glorified in His saints and admired by all who believe. The verse does not say the saints are one group while “them that believe” are a lower group with a different salvation.

Paul even adds, “because our testimony among you was believed.” He was writing to the Thessalonian believers whom he had already called “brethren” and whose faith was growing exceedingly. You have taken two parallel descriptions of Christ’s people and turned them into separate eternal castes. The text never makes that distinction.

Your judgment argument does not prove four destinies either.

Yes, believers will appear before the judgment seat of Christ. Second Corinthians 5:10 says we will receive according to what we have done, whether good or bad. First Corinthians 3:12–15 speaks of reward and loss. But Paul explicitly says of the believer whose work is burned:

“He shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved” (1 Corinthians 3:15).

That is reward or loss among saved people. It is not two different levels of salvation or two eternal destinations.

You also cannot simply attach 1 Peter 4:17 to the judgment seat of Christ. Peter says judgment begins at the house of God in a passage about believers suffering according to the will of God. The immediate context is their present suffering and testing, not a chart identifying the participants and outcomes of a future Bema judgment.

The Great White Throne passage does not say what you claim either. Revelation 20:12 says:

“And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God.”

It does not call them “the nations,” and it does not lay out two classes of redeemed people receiving two different kinds of eternal life. It says the dead are judged according to their works, and:

“Whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire” (Revelation 20:15).

You are still adding categories that the text never names. “Two judgments with two outcomes each equals four possible destinies” may be simple arithmetic, but it is not biblical interpretation. You cannot multiply eternal destinies by counting judgments and outcomes. You must show where Scripture actually identifies four classes and four final destinies. It does not.

Scripture teaches varying reward and loss among believers. It teaches honor and dishonor in Christian service. It teaches the resurrection of life and the resurrection of damnation. None of that establishes your hierarchy of holy saints, scarcely saved righteous people, honored believers, dishonored believers, and separate eternal destinations.

You have still not produced the verse that plainly states your doctrine. You have provided another passage containing two descriptions and another calculation built from assumptions.

Simple math does not turn an inference into Scripture.
 

marks

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So your doctrine still rests on the same trick. You find different descriptions, metaphors, or degrees of reward and turn them into different classes of salvation. Then you mock everyone who refuses to follow you beyond what is written.
Have you condsidered whether he does this knowingly, to provoke others to argue with him, so he can mock and belittle them?

I've read his posts over the past 15 years, this is what I see, this pattern repeating itself year after year.

Much love!
 
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