WATCH!

[The Light]

No
The church is raptured pre 7 yr trib.
Whatever earthly covenant you are inventing is not a player.
THAT...puts the church in heaven for 7 years.

Please produce one scripture that shows that the Church is in heaven before the 7 years begin.

The Church is in heaven before the great tribulation and not before the 7 years begin.

You evidently do not know the purpose of the tribulation.
It is Jacob's trouble.
It is Israel's trouble and has absolutely nothing to do with the church.
It has zero to do with the church ...nothing at all.

The great tribulation is the time of Jacobs trouble. The great tribulation begins when the AOD is set up in the midst of the week.
Please produce one scripture that shows that the Church is in heaven before the 7 years begin.

Those left behind after pre 7 year trib rapture are martyred by the Antichrist.

There is not a single scripture that says that the Church is in heaven before the 7 years begin.

He requires a mark.We already see the birth pangs of the mark.
All the groundwork, and the push, to have people marked is already in the working.
And that is how Christians will be turned in an executed.
The inumerable number that is in heaven came out of the tribulation.
they are billions of martyrs.
so many that no one can count them. And they came out of the tribulation period.

This is the great tribulation, not the full 7 years.

they are the left behind believers that are murdered for not receiving the mark.

You are trying to break up dan 9:27.
You need it to work due to your interpretation of "trib", vs "great trib", vs "wrath".
Which is the cart before the horse.

You haven't accepted the scriptural fact that the great tribulation is OVER at the 6th seal.

Why would you possibly think that the great tribulation which is when people are killed by the beast would be the same thing as the wrath of God when God is punishing unbelievers.

This makes ZERO sense. Believers are not appointed to wrath.

1 Thes 5
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

You have believers on the earth during the wrath of God.

Only those that flee to a place of protection of the nation of Israel, the two witnesses and unbelievers will be on the earth during the wrath of God.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I'm failing to see your point.

You do know Jesus comes twice?

The point was that according to Paul in 2 Thes 2, Jesus returns *for the Church* at the destruction of the one "doomed to destruction.* That prohibits any sense of Christ coming for the Church prior to that time. This eliminates any sense of "two comings of Christ."

 

[Douggg]

We don't know that just yet. It is a 7 year covenant with many which is the only requirement. It will either be confirmed, or it won't be.

What covenant had Daniel referred his people violating in his prayer in Daniel 9:4 and Daniel 9:11 ? The Mt Sinai covenant, right ?

That is "the" covenant in Daniel 9:27. Not "a" covenant.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You just laid out the pre 7yr trib rapture.
* Falling away
* Ac revealed pretrib...not in power yet.
* But first the restrained is removed.
* Which is The rapture of the church pre 7yr
trib.

Thanks for those passages.

Yes, Dispensationalism sees Daniel's 70th Week as future, unlike most of the Church Fathers. I don't know where you get the sense of the Antichrist revealing Pretribulationism? That is, once again, Dispensationalist teaching, which is contrary to most of Christian history. For most of Christian history, the Church believed that the Antichristian Apostasy precedes the Return of Christ. Or, do you read otherwise?

The Restrainer was viewed by the Church Fathers as Roman Government, since Rome was viewed in Dan 2 and 7 as the 4th Kingdom, directly preceding the rise of Antichrist and the coming of Christ's Kingdom. Once Rome was overtaken by the Antichrist and the Apostasy of the Chirstian Church in former Roman territory, then the Kingdom of God was imminent, together with the Return of Christ for the Church.

This is how Paul portrayed it in 2 Thessalonians 2. Christ cannot return for his Church until after the coming of Antichrist. Christ could only return when he returns to destroy the Antichrist and to set up God's Kingdom. All those cults that claim they are already a Kingdom of God on earth are false prophets and false Christs, as Jesus warned.

False religions like Mohammedanism were declared by the historic Church to be "Antichrists," clearly preceeding the coming of Christ with God's Kingdom. The Reformers viewed the corruption of the Catholic Church to be an "Antichrist," also preceeding the coming of Christ with God's Kingdom. Clearly, the historic Church viewed the apostasy of the Church and the rise of Antichrists as preliminary to the coming of Christ with his Kingdom.

The 70th Week of Daniel was viewed as fulfilled in a half week in the time of Messiah, when he would be "cut off." This would be followed by the fall of "the city and the sanctuary" (Dan 9.26). That happened in 70 AD, prohibiting any sense that the 70th Week of Dan 9 could be future.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Try presenting it without editing.
You omitted vs 7.

But let's reread it in a pure form.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

The pretrib rapture.
* AC REVEALED..NOT IN POWER YET.
(....but something is preventing it.)
* that something is removed...the Church pre 7 yr trib rapture.

My deletion of verse 5 was not intended to be editorializing in the negative sense. I have no problem discussing the "Restrainer." It is often a distraction from the theology that Paul clearly spelled out in the above verses.

 

[Douggg]

I don't see anything about a big speech given by the Antichrist in Deuteronomy 31.

Deuteronomy 31
9 And Moses wrote this law, and delivered it unto the priests the sons of Levi, which bare the ark of the covenant of the Lord, and unto all the elders of Israel.

10 And Moses commanded them, saying, At the end of every seven years, in the solemnity of the year of release, in the feast of tabernacles,

11 When all Israel is come to appear before the Lord thy God in the place which he shall choose, thou shalt read this law before all Israel in their hearing.

12 Gather the people together, men and women, and children, and thy stranger that is within thy gates, that they may hear, and that they may learn, and fear the Lord your God, and observe to do all the words of this law:

13 And that their children, which have not known any thing, may hear, and learn to fear the Lord your God, as long as ye live in the land whither ye go over Jordan to possess it.

The setting for Deuteronomy 31, the children of Israel were about to cross over the Jordan and possess the promised land. Moses was near the end of his life.

So that all the children of Israel went through in the Exodus would not be forgotten by future generations, in Deuteronomy 31:9, Moses wrote a law concerning the confirming of the Mt. Sinai covenant on a 7 year cycle.

In Deuteronomy 31:11, all Israel is to gather at a place of God's choosing. To hear, learn, about God's gift to them of the promised land, in Deuteronomy 31:12-13.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

I asked Jews of Judaism what is now considered the place of God's choosing. And they informed me - "the temple mount".

 

[The Light]

2 thess 2
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
"Revealed" spoken 3 times.

You don't seem to understand that the scriptures are talking about things that happen BEFORE the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord happens at the end of the 7th seal........7th trumpet / 7th vial.

The pretrib rapture.
* AC REVEALED..NOT IN POWER YET.
(....but something is preventing it.)
* that something is removed...the Church pre 7 yr trib rapture.

Show me any verse that shows that the Church is removed before the 7 years begin.
There is none.
The Antichrist is not revealed before the Church is raptured. We can tell this because the Church is in heaven before the 7 seals are opened. The first seal is the rider on the white horse, the 7th king and AN Antichrist.

 

[CrowCross]

Could you clarify your question so I can answer correctly.

Lets start here....what is the gathering in 2 Thes 1? Is it a family reunion? A pot luck dinner??? A good time with friends on Saturday night???? What is it?

 

[CrowCross]

The point was that according to Paul in 2 Thes 2, Jesus returns *for the Church* at the destruction of the one "doomed to destruction.* That prohibits any sense of Christ coming for the Church prior to that time. This eliminates any sense of "two comings of Christ."

Do we need to discuss the days of Noah and Lot again? Did you forget already?

Do we need to discuss no white horse at Jesus ascension again?????

 

[The Light]

Lets start here....what is the gathering in 2 Thes 1? Is it a family reunion? A pot luck dinner??? A good time with friends on Saturday night???? What is it?

I'm thinking that you meant 2 Thes 2:1.

Paul is correcting the Church because there are many that are saying that the Day of the Lord was about to take place.

2 Thes 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Paul is saying no, the Day of the Lord cannot take place until there comes a falling away first and the man of sin be revealed.

2 Thes 2

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

As to the gathering, Paul is referring to the gathering from heaven and earth which is seen here.

Matthew 24
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Here is another look at the same event.

Mark 13
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

What is the gathering from heaven and earth? At the gathering from heaven and earth, the Church is gathered from heaven and the seed of the woman, the 12 tribes across the earth are gathered from the earth. This occurs at the 6th seal, prior to the wrath of God which contains the Day of the Lord.

There are two raptures as the fig tree has two harvests. The Church is raptured BEFORE the great tribulation..........not before the final 7 years begin.........before the great tribulation. When the Lord comes for the second harvest which occurs at the 6th seal, He will bring the Church with Him when the 12 tribes are gathered from the earth.

Now are you more confused?

 

[rebuilder 454]

Do we need to discuss the days of Noah and Lot again? Did you forget already?

Do we need to discuss no white horse at Jesus ascension again?????

What you are seeing here is many many end times jockeys with differing ideas.
The problem is ,and has always been, in connecting the dots.

If the panoramic overall view from heaven concerning purpose, is not on the table, then THAT IS WHERE stuff starts making no biblical sense
They are using earthy understanding to try and get lined up in end times timing and events.
It is not earthly wisdom that rules.
It is seeing the panoramic picture FIRST.
Then and only then is PURPOSE injected into "understanding".

I see stuff in here every time I come in here, that is totally out of whack.
Through investigation I find their pivot point where they deviated, and started a whole new doctrine off of that particular pivot point.
So with them, the pivot point is ruling everything they see from: "that particular point", onward.
In other words, now, all of a sudden, they need the Bible to say what they want it to say, and they are very crafty and cunning and doing just that.
You see it over and over in here where they torture that Bible and force it to say what they needed to say.
The Bible isn't saying that at all. But they need it to say that. So they make that bible say what they need it to say.

Once the "purpose of God" enters in, you see the error right away.
It is glaring.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Do we need to discuss the days of Noah and Lot again? Did you forget already?

Do we need to discuss no white horse at Jesus ascension again?????

We can discuss anything you want to discuss. I've answered these kinds of questions for many years, and none of them indicate "2 Comings of Christ." At least, they don't present a challenge to me personally, though they may be convincing to you.

 

[CrowCross]

I'm thinking that you meant 2 Thes 2:1.

Paul is correcting the Church because there are many that are saying that the Day of the Lord was about to take place.

The day of the Lord is the tribulation....all 7 years of it.

2 Thes 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

The rapture.

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Paul is saying no, the Day of the Lord cannot take place until there comes a falling away first and the man of sin be revealed.

That falling away...or better translation...departure...is the rapture.

2 Thes 2

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

What do they fall away from? I noticed the verse doesn't tell us.

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

As to the gathering, Paul is referring to the gathering from heaven and earth which is seen here.

Jesus does return with His saints on white horses...7 years after the rapture/resurrection.

Matthew 24
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

What does from one end of heaven mean? What is the other end of heaven?

Here is another look at the same event.

Mark 13
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

What is the gathering from heaven and earth? At the gathering from heaven and earth, the Church is gathered from heaven and the seed of the woman, the 12 tribes across the earth are gathered from the earth. This occurs at the 6th seal, prior to the wrath of God which contains the Day of the Lord.

This is post trib.

There are two raptures as the fig tree has two harvests. The Church is raptured BEFORE the great tribulation..........not before the final 7 years begin.........before the great tribulation. When the Lord comes for the second harvest which occurs at the 6th seal, He will bring the Church with Him when the 12 tribes are gathered from the earth.

Now are you more confused?

No.

 

[CrowCross]

We can discuss anything you want to discuss. I've answered these kinds of questions for many years, and none of them indicate "2 Comings of Christ." At least, they don't present a challenge to me personally, though they may be convincing to you.

Both point to a pre-trib rapture. Just one of several examples.

 

[WPM]

For those of you that don’t know this and are watching for the return of the Lord, there is a 7-year covenant with many that was signed in September 2023. Is this the covenant with many that is mentioned in Daniel 9, that will start the final 7 years of the age? We don’t know and will not know unless the Antichrist confirms it. The Church, however, will be raptured before that time is able to occur.

Daniel 9

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

This covenant with many is the United Nations 7-year Accelerated SDG Covenant.

Something that believers should be aware of is that most of those that believe in a Pretribulation Rapture believe that the Church will be in heaven before the 7-years begins. There is not one single scripture in the Word of God that says this. Not one.

What we can determine is that the Church will be in heaven before the Great Tribulation. How do we know that?

Revelation 2
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

We don't know the if 7-year Accelerated SDG Covenant with many is the covenant spoken of in Daniel 9:27.

However, we should be aware that the Church is not in heaven before the final week begins. Watch and be ready.

• Where the Church mentioned in Daniel 9?
• Where is a future rapture mentioned in Daniel 9?
• Where is a 7-year covenant mentioned in Daniel 9?

You seem to be making this text say whatever you want it to say to support your error and foolish date-setting.

 

[WPM]

Both point to a pre-trib rapture. Just one of several examples.

Show us any Scripture that teaches a rapture of the Church, followed by a tribulation period of any length, followed by a third coming of the Lord?

 

[The Light]

The day of the Lord is the tribulation....all 7 years of it.

Do you have any scriptural support that the day of the Lord is 7 years of tribulation? Nope.
The Day of the Lord is when Jesus returns with the armies of heaven for Armageddon at the 7th trumpet / 7th vial. It is NOT a 7 year period.

Do you have any scriptural support that the tribulation is 7 years long? Nope.
There is a final week that begins when a covenant with many is made. It is not until the midst of this week that the great tribulation begins.

There is not one single scripture that says that the Church will be in heaven before the 7 years begin. The Church will be in heaven before the great tribulation.

The rapture.

The gathering shown in 2 Thes 2 is a rapture. However, it is not the rapture of the Church.

2 Thes 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

You are completely ignoring what the scripture says. Here is the gathering in Matthew 24

Matthew 24
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The gathering occurs at the 6th seal...........before the 7th seal is opened. The reason this gathering occurs is because the 7th seal is the wrath of God and believers are not appointed to wrath.

That falling away...or better translation...departure...is the rapture.

No. The gathering is the second rapture.

The falling away is the falling away from the faith.

If you are looking for the rapture of the Church, you need to read a few verses further.

2 Thes 2
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

What do they fall away from? I noticed the verse doesn't tell us.

The Bible explains the Bible. The falling away is a departure from the faith.

1 Timothy 4
1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Jesus does return with His saints on white horses...7 years after the rapture/resurrection.

Here's what I know.

There is not ONE SHRED of scriptural evidence that this is true.

There is nowhere in scripture that shows the Church will be in heaven before the 7 years begin.

Was Noah in the ark 7 days before the flood. NO! The first day of the 7 he loaded the animals and we do not know what day of the 7 Noah was sealed in the ark.

What does from one end of heaven mean? What is the other end of heaven?

It means from all of heaven.............one end to the other.

This is post trib.

Yes, this gathering is immediately after the tribulation. However, the tribulation is OVER at the 6th seal. Then the 7th seal is opened and the wrath of God begins.

The reason that few understand end times is because most think that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is the coming of Jesus on white horses at the end of wrath. However, this is not true.

The coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 occurs at the 6th seal, not at the end of wrath. We are given a timestamp when this occurs. It will occur when the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven. This happens at the 6th seal.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

You will not understand end times until you understand that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal and the wrath of God is the 7th seal.

The great tribulation is when the dragon is killing unbelievers. It is over at the 6th seal because the great tribulation is cut short by the gathering from heaven and earth which is the second rapture. If the great tribulation is not cut short there would be no flesh raptured alive unto salvation. For the elects sake the great tribulation is cut short.

The wrath of God is when God is punishing unbelievers. Believers have been removed from the earth at the 6th seal as believers are not appointed to wrath.

1 Thes 5
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

The only people on the earth during the wrath of God are unbelievers, the two witnesses and those in the nation of Israel that flee to a place of protection.

Isaiah 26
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

 

[The Light]

You seem to be making this text say whatever you want it to say to support your error and foolish date-setting.

What date did I set??????????????????????????

 

[Scott Downey]

I'm failing to see your point.

You do know Jesus comes twice?

yes, twice, first time to be a sacrifice for sins, second time for salvation on the day of wrath, Jesus delivers us from the wrath of God, on that Day
v26, the first time
v28, the second time

There is no 3rd time coming. I know plenty of people on this forum agree with this.
Hebrews 9
26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,

28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

The salvation of His people at the rapture, after the great tribulation


1 Peter 1, also describes that salvation ready to be revealed in the last time of this world
See the wicked and unbelieving God has reserved for wrath, but God's people He has kept preserved in Christ for salvation, in the last time.
God is all about showing His power at that time to the entire world, cause when He returns, every eye shall see Him, not just a few.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance [b]incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been [c]grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not [d]seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

 

[Scott Downey]

Matthew 13, explains all this, this is not a third coming at the end, this is the second coming at the end of the age of this world.

What you got here is the wicked and the righteous both on earth at the end.
Christ comes with the angels
The wicked are gathered out of His kingdom, which is now His, not the devil's.
The righteous inherit that kingdom of God

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.

Matthew 13

The Parable of the Tares Explained​

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.”

37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one.

39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.

40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!