MOTB by itself does not always = LOF ??

[IndianaRob]

and @Scott Downey

Let me get this straight = you guys do not believe the words of God pertaining to a literal 1,000 years in Genesis and Revelation chapter 20???

i hope you all understand that it is the LORD who interprets His words for us and that we must consider all that HE has spoken.

Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, “Peace to you.” 37But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit. 38And He said to them, “Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”

40When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet. 41But while they still did not believe for joy, and marveled, He said to them, “Have you any food here?” 42So they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish and some honeycomb. 43And He took it and ate in their presence.

Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.”
45And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.

David I hope you understand Daniel 12 proves beyond the shadow of a doubt = it is impossible that there is a literal 1000 years.

 

[PeterAndroz]

David I hope you understand Daniel 12 proves beyond the shadow of a doubt = it is impossible that there is a literal 1000 years.

Where does Daniel teach that the 1000 years reign of Christ will not be a literal reality.
List the verses so that we can understand your view.

 

[IndianaRob]

Where does Daniel teach that the 1000 years reign of Christ will not be a literal reality.
List the verses so that we can understand your view.

Look at Daniel 12. There are two resurrections. The first one mentioned is the FIRST RESURRECTION of the just to everlasting life and the second one is the resurrection of the unjust to everlasting contempt.

NOTE: Both happened at exactly the same time! There is no 1000 year separation anywhere in Daniel.

Daniel 12
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

[Marty fox]

Revelation 20:1-6 Isnt A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Dont Be Deceived​

Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Neither does it even mention Jesus on the earth

 

[PeterAndroz]

Look at Daniel 12. There are two resurrections. The first one mentioned is the FIRST RESURRECTION of the just to everlasting life and the second one is the resurrection of the unjust to everlasting contempt.

NOTE: Both happened at exactly the same time! There is no 1000 year separation anywhere in Daniel.

Daniel 12
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

There is no 1000 year separation anywhere in Daniel.
Was Daniel told EVERYTHING ??
Where did Daniel teach about the insertion of Paul - the mystery NEVER revealed to the prophets ??

 

[WPM]

Where does Daniel teach that the 1000 years reign of Christ will not be a literal reality.
List the verses so that we can understand your view.

You promote a doctrine that has zero corroboration. That is why Premils run when they are pressed on biblical support for their theory. I will put your beliefs to the test once more so the reader can see what many of us can:

• What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that there a literal future 1000 years+?
• What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that there are two distinct physical resurrection days (the first for the righteous, the second for the wicked) separated by a literal 1000 years+?
• Where in Scripture does it mention "resurrection days" (plural), pertaining to the end?
• What Scripture (including Revelation 20) do you consider definitely teaches there are two distinct future judgement days (that will see all mankind stand before Christ to give account for their lives) separated by a literal 1000 years+?
• Where in Scripture does it mention "judgement days" (plural), in regard to the end?
• What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that Satan will be bound for a time-span of 1000 years after the Second Advent, then released for a "little season" to deceive the nations, and then destroy them?
• Where in Scripture including Revelation 20 does it teach that both unregenerate mortals and the glorified saints will inherit the future earth after the second coming of Christ?
• What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that the wicked will grow to such an overwhelming number that they will overrun a future millennial earth as the sand of the sea and surround Christ and the glorified saints?

 

[PeterAndroz]

You promote a doctrine that has zero corroboration. That is why Premils run when they are pressed on biblical support for their theory. I will put your beliefs to the test once more so the reader can see what many of us can:

• What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that there a literal future 1000 years+?
• What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that there are two distinct physical resurrection days (the first for the righteous, the second for the wicked) separated by a literal 1000 years+?
• Where in Scripture does it mention "resurrection days" (plural), pertaining to the end?
• What Scripture (including Revelation 20) do you consider definitely teaches there are two distinct future judgement days (that will see all mankind stand before Christ to give account for their lives) separated by a literal 1000 years+?
• Where in Scripture does it mention "judgement days" (plural), in regard to the end?
• What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that Satan will be bound for a time-span of 1000 years after the Second Advent, then released for a "little season" to deceive the nations, and then destroy them?
• Where in Scripture including Revelation 20 does it teach that both unregenerate mortals and the glorified saints will inherit the future earth after the second coming of Christ?
• What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that the wicked will grow to such an overwhelming number that they will overrun a future millennial earth as the sand of the sea and surround Christ and the glorified saints?

Thanks for your 'opinion'
Ps, Where does Daniel teaching about the 'mystery' teachings of Paul ?
No rush W :)

 

[WPM]

There is no 1000 year separation anywhere in Daniel.
Was Daniel told EVERYTHING ??
Where did Daniel teach about the insertion of Paul - the mystery NEVER revealed to the prophets ??

View attachment 88238

View attachment 88237

Ephesians 3:1-9: “For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to youward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ.”

Dispensationalists typically present the New Testament Church as a brand-new spiritual innovation, which had no existence prior to Pentecost. They teach that the Church itself is “the mystery” and that it is a completely separate entity to God’s people in the Old Testament. They say that because the New Testament Church is expressly called ‘the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God’ that it is a brand-new construction started at Upper Room. They contend that the Apostle Paul was specifically and specially tasked with revealing this great mystery.

What they miss is that the Church is not a New Testament novelty introduced by Christ but an ongoing spiritual organism that has contained the elect of God from the very beginning. The Church is not something entirely unique in God's plan and purposes but is an extension of Old Testament believing Israel. Whilst the Church has taken on a different form under the new covenant, in the same way as the development / change occurs between the caterpillar and the butterfly, the elect in the Old Testament and the elect in the New Testament are part of the same spiritual body.

Paul never says that the Church wasn’t about before Pentecost. In fact, he teaches the opposite. He identifies the mystery in a clear and unambiguous way in verse 6, namely: “That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel.” The Dispensational interpretation is the exact opposite to what the inspired text is actually saying. Paul is in fact talking about the joining of the old and new covenant saints together in Christ. The mystery is the mystical union of the people of God of all time in one spiritual body. He is talking about the parity that resulted from this merger in regard to the promises of God.

 

[PeterAndroz]

Ephesians 3:1-9: “For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to youward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ.”

Dispensationalists typically present the New Testament Church as a brand-new spiritual innovation, which had no existence prior to Pentecost. They teach that the Church itself is “the mystery” and that it is a completely separate entity to God’s people in the Old Testament. They say that because the New Testament Church is expressly called ‘the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God’ that it is a brand-new construction started at Upper Room. They contend that the Apostle Paul was specifically and specially tasked with revealing this great mystery.

What they miss is that the Church is not a New Testament novelty introduced by Christ but an ongoing spiritual organism that has contained the elect of God from the very beginning. The Church is not something entirely unique in God's plan and purposes but is an extension of Old Testament believing Israel. Whilst the Church has taken on a different form under the new covenant, in the same way as the development / change occurs between the caterpillar and the butterfly, the elect in the Old Testament and the elect in the New Testament are part of the same spiritual body.

Paul never says that the Church wasn’t about before Pentecost. In fact, he teaches the opposite. He identifies the mystery in a clear and unambiguous way in verse 6, namely: “That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel.” The Dispensational interpretation is the exact opposite to what the inspired text is actually saying. Paul is in fact talking about the joining of the old and new covenant saints together in Christ. The mystery is the mystical union of the people of God of all time in one spiritual body. He is talking about the parity that resulted from this merger in regard to the promises of God.

List the verse where Daniel teaches about the 'mystery' teachings of Paul
Just the verse W, not verseless opinions :)

 

[IndianaRob]

There is no 1000 year separation anywhere in Daniel.
Was Daniel told EVERYTHING ??
Where did Daniel teach about the insertion of Paul - the mystery NEVER revealed to the prophets ??

View attachment 88238

View attachment 88237

Are you telling me that you read Daniel 12 and concluded that Daniel is “missing” something.

Daniel tells you that during Jacobs trouble the just and the unjust are raised at exactly the same time.

 

[WPM]

Thanks for your 'opinion'
Ps, Where does Daniel teaching about the 'mystery' teachings of Paul ?
No rush W :)

View attachment 88239

More avoidance. That seems to be your MO.

 

[WPM]

Are you telling me that you read Daniel 2 and concluded that Daniel is “missing” something.

Daniel tells you that during Jacobs trouble the just and the unjust are raised at exactly the same time.

Where does he mention Jacobs trouble? Where does the NT mention Jacobs trouble?

 

[PeterAndroz]

Ephesians 3:1-9: “For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to youward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ.”

Dispensationalists typically present the New Testament Church as a brand-new spiritual innovation, which had no existence prior to Pentecost. They teach that the Church itself is “the mystery” and that it is a completely separate entity to God’s people in the Old Testament. They say that because the New Testament Church is expressly called ‘the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God’ that it is a brand-new construction started at Upper Room. They contend that the Apostle Paul was specifically and specially tasked with revealing this great mystery.

What they miss is that the Church is not a New Testament novelty introduced by Christ but an ongoing spiritual organism that has contained the elect of God from the very beginning. The Church is not something entirely unique in God's plan and purposes but is an extension of Old Testament believing Israel. Whilst the Church has taken on a different form under the new covenant, in the same way as the development / change occurs between the caterpillar and the butterfly, the elect in the Old Testament and the elect in the New Testament are part of the same spiritual body.

Paul never says that the Church wasn’t about before Pentecost. In fact, he teaches the opposite. He identifies the mystery in a clear and unambiguous way in verse 6, namely: “That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel.” The Dispensational interpretation is the exact opposite to what the inspired text is actually saying. Paul is in fact talking about the joining of the old and new covenant saints together in Christ. The mystery is the mystical union of the people of God of all time in one spiritual body. He is talking about the parity that resulted from this merger in regard to the promises of God.

Verses W, verses, just list the verses :)

 

[PeterAndroz]

More avoidance. That seems to be your MO.

Verses W, verses, just list the verses where Daniel teaches about the mystery teachings of Paul :)

 

[PeterAndroz]

Revelation 20:1-6 Isnt A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Dont Be Deceived​

Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Opinions vary :-
..

 

[IndianaRob]

Where does he mention Jacobs trouble? Where does the NT mention Jacobs trouble?

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

In the New Testament Matthew 24.

 

[PeterAndroz]

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

In the New Testament Matthew 24.

Which Paul also makes reference to :-
2 Thess :-
2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 

[WPM]

Verses W, verses, just list the verses where Daniel teaches about the mystery teachings of Paul :)

Exactly. You cannot support what you have been taught with hard Scripture. We already knew that.

 

[PeterAndroz]

Exactly. You cannot support what you have been taught with hard Scripture. We already knew that.

and the verses where Daniel teaches about the future 'mystery' as taught by Paul are ?
List away W :)

 

[IndianaRob]

Which Paul also makes reference to :-
2 Thess :-
2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

What does that have to do with Daniel 12 Peter?

We are talking about how Daniel 12 shows one resurrection with two types of people being raised at that one resurrection - the just and the unjust that and they happen at the same time, not 1000 years apart.