Biblical proof that we the New Testament Church are true Israel today

[covenantee]

What is he saying there? I am an Indian if I am one inwardly. But really am I an Indian?
Paul makes comparisons. What good is it to be a Jew if you did not accept Christ as the Messiah and Savior?
For the Pagans that accepted Christ as the Messiah and Savior they are religiously equal to the Jewish-Christians.

More accurately Paul said....
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:28

What is he saying there? I am an Indian if I am one inwardly. But really am I an Indian?

If the Holy Spirit had meant Indian, we would see Indian.

Paul makes comparisons. What good is it to be a Jew if you did not accept Christ as the Messiah and Savior?
For the Pagans that accepted Christ as the Messiah and Savior they are religiously equal to the Jewish-Christians.

True. They are spiritually equal in the sight of God.

More accurately Paul said....

The Holy Spirit who inspired him, inspired him accurately in all instances.

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:28

True.

 

[Grailhunter]

There is nothing you can do with this apart from spiritualize it away and render it meaningless. What does citizenship mean? You cannot even tell us what the citizenship of Israel looks like. You cannot even tell us if this is ethnic Israel or spiritual Israel? How about answering these questions and not ducking around every query that exposes your argument?

I have said it is not meaningless. You cannot tell us what citizenship in a spiritual Israel means? Do they get a card?
Well since Israel did not exist at this time there is not ethnic Israel. I have answered your question quite pointedly.

 

[Grailhunter]

Scripture spiritualises the terms "Jew," "the circumcision," "Israel," and "children of Abraham" and applies them spiritually to both natural Jew and Gentile who love Jesus in our day.

Natural designations are repeatedly shown in the New Testament to mean nothing today. The spiritual designations that were near exclusively restricted to natural Israelites have now been placed upon the Gentiles by faith. Popular Old Testament terms like “the children of Abraham, “Israel,” “Jews,” “the circumcision” and “Zion” (“Sion”) that overwhelmingly described the Hebrew offspring of Abraham in the Old Testament are now employed under the new arrangement in a wider spiritual sense.

Dispensationalists limit terms like “the children of Abraham, “Israel,” “Jews,” “the circumcision” and “Zion” (“Sion”) to solely the natural Hebrew descendants of Abraham. They fail to see that the favor of God moved from a theocratic nation to a spiritual nation with the ministry of Christ and the introduction of the new covenant. They interpret the term “kingdom” to also mean the same in both covenants. They fail to see that David’s earthly kingdom was only a type of the heavenly kingdom that Christ introduced to this earth at His first Advent. They fail to fully comprehend that we have moved away from the Old Testament shadow and type into the fullness of the New Testament reality.

Dispensationalists......History does not happen in one minute.....they happen over time periods. And each time period has it circumstances and effects on the periods afterwards. David's kingdom was a physical kingdom that happened in a time period. And yes we are in the fullness of the New Testament....

 

[Grailhunter]

The terms "circumcision" and “uncircumcision" are spiritualized in the New Testament to differentiate the saved from the lost (irrespective of what broad natural people-group they belong to).

• "Circumcision" spiritually represents God’s elect regardless of nationality.
• “Uncircumcision" is spiritually synonymous with the unregenerate regardless of nationality.

Romans 2:25-29 supports this, saying, “if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? ... For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit [Gr. pneuma].”

In Romans 2:25-29, Paul reveals a profound spiritual truth how physically uncircumcised Gentiles are viewed as the circumcised, and physically circumcised Jews are viewed as uncircumcised. This seems contradictory and mistaken. After all Jews are Jews and Gentiles are Gentiles. In a natural sense this is true, but in a spiritual sense this isn’t. Paul goes on to prove this. He shows how the title “Jew” and “circumcision” are choice spiritual titles that relate alone to the redeemed of God.

A Jew today in God’s eyes is not physical but spiritual. Paul succinctly says, “he is a Jew, which is one inwardly.” Those that are born again, irrespective of nationality or color, are classed as true Jews.

Paul explains in Philippians 3:3, speaking of the international trans-ethnic Church, “For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the Spirit [Gr. pneuma], and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.”

This couldn't be clearer: "we are the circumcision" who are "in the Spirit."

We are not natural Israel or natural Jews or natural circumcision or natural sons of Abraham (that means nothing anyway), we are the spiritual circumcision - the true circumcision. We are the only chosen people on planet earth.

Colossians 2:11-14 declares, “ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross"

Circumcision is no longer physical but spiritual. His covenant people are the redeemed of all nations (Jew and Gentile) not merely natural Israelis. The old theocracy has gone for ever. God chosen people are the Church of Jesus Christ. The old covenant ordinances (including circumcision) have all been nailed to the tree of Calvary - thus their uselessness.

Galatians 3:7-9 also says, “Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.”

Those who have come to Christ by simple faith are here identified as the true children of Abraham.

Look down, are you circumcised our uncircumcised? Your pee is not spiritual. It is a physical thing. Paul was saying that the uncircumcised Gentile that believed were as religiously right as the Jews that believed in Christ were.

 

[WPM]

I have said it is not meaningless. You cannot tell us what citizenship in a spiritual Israel means? Do they get a card?
Well since Israel did not exist at this time there is not ethnic Israel. I have answered your question quite pointedly.

LOL. I did. You obviously have a reading issue. It is a spiritual standing. When you consider the meaning of the word “Israel” and how it ultimately finds its fulfillment in Jesus Christ, it forces us to ask, what people, then, today, could possibly meet the criteria and designation of true Israel? It has to be a spiritual people, because that is, ultimately, the core sense of the word. But it also must be a company that recognizes, identifies and embraces Christ (true Israel). That certainly isn’t natural Israel over this past 2000 years. It was them that rejected Him and nailed Him to a tree. What is more, this company is not limited to the Middle East but is rather expressly found throughout “the world” (Isaiah 27:6) and relates to “a company of nations” (Genesis 35:10-11).

True Israel today can only refer to God’s redeemed people (of all nations), the New Testament congregation. Only they can meet the description. They alone belong to Christ. Only they are His ambassadors on this earth. Only they enjoy favor with God and with man. Scripture proves that Gentile believers would be thoroughly blended into the harmonious whole of faithful Israel. This is supported many Old Testament prophecies that tells us that Israel will be enjoined by others and will incorporate the nations. This is talking about the full spiritual expanse of true Israel. If one is in Christ they belong to spiritual Israel.

 

[WPM]

Look down, are you circumcised our uncircumcised? Your pee is not spiritual. It is a physical thing. Paul was saying that the uncircumcised Gentile that believed were as religiously right as the Jews that believed in Christ were.

The Apostle declares in Romans 2:25-29: “For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit.”

Romans 2:25-29 is quite powerful in that it changes the nature and scope of what a real Jew (the “circumcision”) and a real Gentile (the “uncircumcision”) are in God’s eyes under the new covenant. God takes these common natural terms and spiritualizes them, and in doing so redefines the whole argument of true identity.

The Holy Spirit shows the supernatural change that occurs under the new covenant where physical circumcision has been superseded by just spiritual circumcision in salvation. This is the sign of covenant participation. This change is so clear and indisputable. It is spiritual.

Throughout the New Testament, the natural ethnic title “uncircumcision” (normally used to describe a Gentile) is amazingly used to describe the unbelieving Jew. Also, the natural ethnic title “circumcision” (normally used to describe a natural Jew) is amazingly used to describe the believing Gentile. This would have been anathema to the unbelieving Jews of Paul’s day. It would have been the greatest insult to a Jew.

He is comparing those that are spiritually circumcised (representing all believers – both Jew and Gentile) to those that are spiritually non-circumcised (representing unbelievers – both Jew and Gentile). This is essentially a saved or lost issue, which keeps coming up repeatedly in Scripture. That is the only 2 peoples in this world, not Jew or Gentile.

It would be helpful to categorize the parties in view. Let us illustrate.

(A) Physical circumcision
(B) Physical non-circumcision
(C) Spiritual circumcision of the heart
(D) Spiritual non-circumcision of the heart

What Paul is saying is that A and B means nothing. Salvation is not a natural matter. He is emphasizing here as he continually does in his writings, C and D are what it is all about. This is how God truly views all men. Nothing else matters. He shows that C refers to all irrespective of race, nationality or status that accept Christ. He especially highlights how the Gentile who is by nature a B has been brought into this chosen grouping (C) through the blood of Jesus. He equally shows that D refers to all irrespective of race, nationality or status who reject Christ. He especially highlights the fact there will be those of A that equally belong to D and therefore damned. Nothing could be simpler.

 

[WPM]

Dispensationalists......History does not happen in one minute.....they happen over time periods. And each time period has it circumstances and effects on the periods afterwards. David's kingdom was a physical kingdom that happened in a time period. And yes we are in the fullness of the New Testament....

The reality is: God is no respecter of persons today (Acts 10:34-35, Romans 2:11, Galatians 2:6, Ephesians 6:9, Colossians 3:25, 1 Peter 1:17). God shows no favoritism in regard to a person’s nationality, color, social status, education, knowledge, family heritage, race, or gender. Basically, your birthplace, birthday or passport carries no merit with God. The exclusive nationalistic favor of one nation has been eternally removed in Christ to embrace both Jew and Gentile equally by faith. This will never be overturned. The sinner (of all nationalities) enters exclusively into communion with God through faith in Christ on an equal basis.

Dispensationalists are respecters of people and elevate Israel today above all nations, when Christ is no respecter of nations, colors, creeds or passports.

Dispensationalists will not let go of the old covenant. They refuse to accept that it is gone forever. It failed. That is because the old covenant was based upon the obedience of man (do, do, do), but he couldn’t. The New Testament is based upon the obedience of Christ, and is perfectly done.

God shows no favoritism regard to a person’s nationality, color, social status, education, knowledge, family heritage, race, or gender. Basically, your birthplace, birthday or passport carries no merit with God. The exclusive nationalistic favor of one nation has been eternally removed in Christ to embrace both Jew and Gentile equally by faith. This will never be overturned. The sinner (of all nationalities) enters exclusively into communion with God through faith in Christ on an equal basis.

Outside of Christ and salvation there is no hope, no peace or no favor. Before salvation man is bound by sin, blinded by the devil, and destined for hell. Salvation, by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone is the only means of delivering us from this awful state. This is basic 101 biblical salvation.

God is no respecter of persons. This is not strange or outlandish; it is the constant theme of the New Testament. The Gospel is no longer restricted to the physical race of Israel but it has been opened up to embrace all nations. This means that God doesn’t accept anyone based on their nationality, color or status but rather on whether or not they fear Him. When it comes to salvation he looks at the inward rather than the outward. Those that fear him and walk righteously “in every nation” are now “accepted with him.” He is assuredly “Lord of all.” He has made all nations, tribes and kindreds the focus of His favor today. It is wrong to elevate one nation over another.

 

[Grailhunter]

It is a spiritual standing. When you consider the meaning of the word “Israel” and how it ultimately finds its fulfillment in Jesus Christ, it forces us to ask, what people, then, today, could possibly meet the criteria and designation of true Israel? It has to be a spiritual people, because that is, ultimately, the core sense of the word. But it also must be a company that recognizes, identifies and embraces Christ (true Israel). That certainly isn’t natural Israel over this past 2000 years. It was them that rejected Him and nailed Him to a tree. What is more, this company is not limited to the Middle East but is rather expressly found throughout “the world” (Isaiah 27:6) and relates to “a company of nations” (Genesis 35:10-11).

True Israel today can only refer to God’s redeemed people (of all nations), the New Testament congregation. Only they can meet the description. They alone belong to Christ. Only they are His ambassadors on this earth. Only they enjoy favor with God and with man. Scripture proves that Gentile believers would be thoroughly blended into the harmonious whole of faithful Israel. This is supported many Old Testament prophecies that tells us that Israel will be enjoined by others and will incorporate the nations. This is talking about the full spiritual expanse of true Israel. If one is in Christ they belong to spiritual Israel.

As I have explained repeatedly, there is nothing admirable about Israel, physical or spiritual. Spiritual failing God. God pretty much stomped them into the ground. Lost their kingdom, enslaved by Pagans, rejected by Christianity, they were treated like witches during the witch-hunts, tortured and burnt as the stake. Kickout of nearly every Christian country......blessings?????

 

[Grailhunter]

Romans 2:25-29 is quite powerful in that it changes the nature and scope of what a real Jew (the “circumcision”) and a real Gentile (the “uncircumcision”) are in God’s eyes under the new covenant. God takes these common natural terms and spiritualizes them, and in doing so redefines the whole argument of true identity.

A Jew is not a Christian.
For the Jewish-Christian and Gentile Christians circumcision meant nothing. So physical or spiritual means nothing. Circumcision was a requirement of the Mosaic Law, Christians do not observe the Mosaic Law. But Paul had an answer for those that were fixated on circumcision.....You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. Galatians 5:4
Circumcision means nothing in the standing of a Christian with God.

 

[Grailhunter]

Dispensationalists

No dispensationalists live in reality. Has nothing to do with respect, just tell it like it is.

 

[WPM]

As I have explained repeatedly, there is nothing admirable about Israel, physical or spiritual. Spiritual failing God. God pretty much stomped them into the ground. Lost their kingdom, enslaved by Pagans, rejected by Christianity, they were treated like witches during the witch-hunts, tortured and burnt as the stake. Kickout of nearly every Christian country......blessings?????

A core tenet of Dispensationalism is the absolute, and ongoing, distinction between Israel and the Church. Dispensationalists suggest that these two entities describe two different peoples of God, under two separate covenants, who operate on two distinct tracks, function by two divergent time-clocks and who end up in two diverse destinations. They essentially argue that Israel and the Church have parallel but separate roles throughout time, and even eternity. They suggest that the Jews and the Christians are both currently peoples of God, only their promises differ. Believing this, they promote a ‘Segregation Theology’!

While the New Testament does continually differentiate between apostate national Israel and the believing new covenant Church, it is always on the grounds of man’s response to the life and message of our Savior. But that does not address the relationship between the righteous believing remnant of national Israel and the largely Gentile elect New Testament Church in our day.

It is wise to ask: what ever happened to faithful Israel when Jesus came? Did it just disappear into obscurity?

Mirroring the process that a caterpillar undergoes developing into the maturity and beauty of a colorful butterfly, the Old Testament Church underwent a significant metamorphic change in the New Testament, progressing into the current Spirit-filled international New Testament Church. The ekklesia essentially took on wings! That is not to say that we can separate the elect of God in either dispensation or view them as two different entities. Rather, we must view both as the same organic entity. The Lutheran Church Missouri Synod report gives a similar illustration: “The relationship between the two Testaments is similar to that of a bud and its full blossom” (The End Times - A Study on Eschatology and Millennialism).

The main difference between the Old Testament period and the New Testament period is their perspective of Jesus Christ. The Old Testament was looking forward to the coming Messiah. The New Testament reveals His arrival and precious work on man’s behalf. As we dig deeper and compare both, we notice that there are notable differences between the two arrangements. We see a significant move:

• From the shadow and type to the substance and fulfilment
• From the anticipated to the fulfilled
• From the imperfect to the perfect
• From the inadequate to the all-sufficient.
• From the physical to the spiritual
• From the external to the internal
• From the natural to the supernatural
• From the temporary to the eternal
• From the earthly to the heavenly
• From the national to the international
• From the conditional to the unconditional
• From the seen to the unseen

As you can see: these two economies could not be more diverse. The improvement is obvious, substantial and indisputable. The repercussions are even greater for mankind. What was long-anticipated by the old covenant prophets has now wonderfully arrived. The appearance of Israel’s Messiah was the pivotal moment in history and the catalyst for a colossal transformative change.

 

[Grailhunter]

A core tenet of Dispensationalism is the absolute, and ongoing, distinction between Israel and the Church. Dispensationalists suggest that these two entities describe two different peoples of God, under two separate covenants, who operate on two distinct tracks, function by two divergent time-clocks and who end up in two diverse destinations. They essentially argue that Israel and the Church have parallel but separate roles throughout time, and even eternity. They suggest that the Jews and the Christians are both currently peoples of God, only their promises differ. Believing this, they promote a ‘Segregation Theology’!

This is pretty close and also the reality of it all.
Trying to mix Judaism and Christianity produces a very weird religion.
Christ warned not to do that.
21 “No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment. Otherwise, the new piece will pull away from the old, making the tear worse. 22 And no one pours new wine into old wineskins. Otherwise, the wine will burst the skins, and both the wine and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins.” Mark 2:21-22

 

[WPM]

A Jew is not a Christian.
For the Jewish-Christian and Gentile Christians circumcision meant nothing. So physical or spiritual means nothing. Circumcision was a requirement of the Mosaic Law, Christians do not observe the Mosaic Law. But Paul had an answer for those that were fixated on circumcision.....You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. Galatians 5:4
Circumcision means nothing in the standing of a Christian with God.

Physical circumcision means nothing in God's economy anymore. It is totally irrelevant. It avails nothing. It is gone forever with the old economy. Stop trying to bring it back. There is only one people of God - the Israel of God - God's elect

 

[Grailhunter]

Physical circumcision means nothing in God's economy anymore. It is totally irrelevant. It avails nothing. It is gone forever with the old economy. Stop trying to bring it back. There is only one people of God - the Israel of God - God's elect

You are the one that seem fixated on Israel and circumcision. I keep saying it means nothing.
No Israel of God. The church of Christ. Israel and the jews have nothing to offer Christianity.

 

[WPM]

This is pretty close and also the reality of it all.
Trying to mix Judaism and Christianity produces a very weird religion.
Christ warned not to do that.
21 “No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment. Otherwise, the new piece will pull away from the old, making the tear worse. 22 And no one pours new wine into old wineskins. Otherwise, the wine will burst the skins, and both the wine and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins.” Mark 2:21-22

Exactly. The old is gone forever. Stop trying to resurrect it.

 

[WPM]

You are the one that seem fixated on Israel and circumcision. I keep saying it means nothing.
No Israel of God. The church of Christ. Israel and the jews have nothing to offer Christianity.

Is ethnic Israel (the Jews) still God's chosen people?

 

[Grailhunter]

Exactly. The old is gone forever. Stop trying to resurrect it.

I did not bring it up.

 

[Grailhunter]

Is ethnic Israel (the Jews) still God's chosen people?

A lot of Christians do not think they are any more. Some Christians petty much hate them.....their father is the devil sort of thing.
But I still think they are of the "holy seed" the chosen. But they lost favor in the Old Testament and God pretty much stomped them in the ground. Then they cursed themselves. Crucify Him! Crucify Him! Let is blood be on us and our children! And so it was.
But I love the Jews and Israel and I think God still as a plan for the Jews.
But Judaism is not Christianity and Christianity is not Israel physical or spiritual.

 

[WPM]

A lot of Christians do not think they are any more. Some Christians petty much hate them.....their father is the devil sort of thing.
But I still think they are of the "holy seed" the chosen. But they lost favor in the Old Testament and God pretty much stomped them in the ground. Then they cursed themselves. Crucify Him! Crucify Him! Let is blood be on us and our children! And so it was.
But I love the Jews and Israel and I think God still as a plan for the Jews.
But Judaism is not Christianity and Christianity is not Israel physical or spiritual.

Is ethnic Israel (the Jews) still God's chosen people?

 

[Grailhunter]

Is ethnic Israel (the Jews) still God's chosen people?

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