Birth of Jesus Christ

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Fred J

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Luke 1:1-4
1Many people have set out to write accounts about the events that have been fulfilled among us.
2They used the eyewitness reports circulating among us from the early disciples.a
3Having carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I also have decided to write an accurate account for you, most honorable Theophilus,
4so you can be certain of the truth of everything you were taught.
Just to make your assumption of possibility version right, you cut short verse 2?

2. Even as they delievered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;

Clearly Luke is referring to the 11 disciples chosen by Jesus, eyewitnesses from John the Baptist himself proclaiming about the One after him to come.

Who likewise became Apostles and commissioned specifically by Jesus Christ, to make disciples of all nation henceforth.

In the book of Acts and after Pentecost, do we have accounts of Mary having a ministry and role as well, even with the Apostles, besides other women have?

No!

Whatever we want to testify in addition apart from what is in the scripture, must be 'tangible' to the context, therefore agreeable without contradictions.
Eyewitness reports from the early disciples.
But the early disciples were not present when Jesus was born...
or before that...
so the info had to come from somewhere.
Why not from FATHER, Son and the Holy Ghost and moreover themselves are firsthand eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word?

While Mary unable to comprehend, kept them all in her heart, while in her lifetime witnessed them come to pass rather?
 
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GodsGrace

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There's no account to your possibility and close, but merely one's assumption and speculation as 'lukewarm' theologians and scholars do.
I don't understand Fred.
You're saying that it is not possible that the Mary and/or Joseph did NOT speak to Jesus about His childhood?
That would be very strange indeed.

Jesus is the Master and we're the servants, hence built in the foundation of the Apostles and the Prophets, that which is canonize for us today. (2Timothy3:16&17)

The Lord from Heaven and the Word Himself became flesh, and 12 years of age He manifested in the spirit as God the Son, and quieten down obeying His parents in the 'flesh'.

He had to increase in wisdom and stature in the 'flesh' as man a Nazarene and before His time, apparently as in favour with GOD and man.
So you believe ONLY what is printed actually happened to Jesus?
Did He also live life inbetween the lines you posted above?
I really don't know what you're saying.

I believe in the 'spirit' as the Lord from Heaven and the Word, He's well aware of His birth and everything, but there's no account He shared these with the disciples.
How could you possibly know everything Jesus shared with the Apostles??
He lived with them for years.
What did they talk about for 3.5 years??

According to John 3:3, firstly before becoming a disciple, one need to be 'born from above' in order to 'see' the Kingdom of GOD.

Therefore disciple Peter is an example, that He's been 'born from above' in order to 'see' the KIngdom of GOD, recognizing the Messiah Jesus from the revelation of GOD beforehand. (Matthew 16:16&17)

When GOD is working revealing in the disxiples about His Kingdom, besides Jesus discipling also about the Kingdom of the FATHER as well?

Why not after receiving the Holy Ghost, the disciples are Apostles now, are perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works(2Timothy3:16&17), spiritually have all these accounts from above, without Mary or so on to tell them?
I see.
So you believe that when the Apostles were indwelt with the Holy Spirit they then magically knew everything that had ever happened to Jesus in His entire life.

Never heard this before-....but it's an interesting concept.
Almost as if the Apostles were not really normal, regular human beings that were taught by Jesus.
He could have saved Himself a lot of time and just told them to wait for the indwelling.

Now having and discipled in the All Scripture=Holy Bible ourselves, we read there's no account of Mary and so on, you alike speculate the possibility, were the 'source'.
You really dislike Mary.
Maybe she shouldn't have been mentioned at all in the NT?
But she is the Mother of God...
so I believe she deserves some mention.

Shalom in the name of Lord Jesus Christ
Same to you Fred.
Please think everything over.
 

Fred J

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John 16:
13. Howbeit when He, the Spirit truth, is come, He will guide you into 'all' truth: for He shall not speak of Himeself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will shew you things to come.
14. He shall glorify Me: for He shall receive of Mine, and shall shew it unto you.


Brethren, my testimony is from the account of scripture and sound doctrine within in context, from where am discipled and built upon.
 

GodsGrace

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Just to make your assumption of possibility version right, you cut short verse 2?

2. Even as they delievered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;

Clearly Luke is referring to the 11 disciples chosen by Jesus, eyewitnesses from John the Baptist himself proclaiming about the One after him to come.
§The Apostles were eyewitnesses.
It seemed redundant to add verse 2.

So do you believe the Apostles were the ONLY eye witnesses?
Was Mary an eyewitness?
Maybe Elizabeth?
Maybe Mary Magdalene?
Maybe Zecchaeus?

And a myriad of others.

Who likewise became Apostles and commissioned specifically by Jesus Christ, to make disciples of all nation henceforth.

In the book of Acts and after Pentecost, do we have accounts of Mary having a ministry and role as well, even with the Apostles, besides other women have?

No!

Whatever we want to testify in addition apart from what is in the scripture, must be 'tangible' to the context, therefore agreeable without contradictions.
Absence of evidence
is not evidence of absence.

Why not from FATHER, Son and the Holy Ghost and moreover themselves are firsthand eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word?

While Mary unable to comprehend, kept them all in her heart, while in her lifetime witnessed them come to pass rather?
Yes. Disliking Mary is not nice.
And because the Apostles were eyewitnesses does not mean no one else was.

I've already posted the beginning of Luke where he states that he spoke to witnesses.
If you want to believe that he meant only Apostles, that's fine with me.

This is not something I care to debate.
 

GodsGrace

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John 16:
13. Howbeit when He, the Spirit truth, is come, He will guide you into 'all' truth: for He shall not speak of Himeself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will shew you things to come.
14. He shall glorify Me: for He shall receive of Mine, and shall shew it unto you.


Brethren, my testimony is from the account of scripture and sound doctrine within in context, from where am discipled and built upon.
Too bad you don't think of those in the NT as real persons and real history being made.
Maybe you also think Jesus was a cartoon figure headed for the cross.

Maybe in time you'll come to understand that when Peter was hung on a cross in Rome...
a real human being was being hung....not a character from a story.
 

Fred J

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I don't understand Fred.
You're saying that it is not possible that the Mary and/or Joseph did NOT speak to Jesus about His childhood?
That would be very strange indeed.
Very strange when you don't have a Biblical account saying so.
So you believe ONLY what is printed actually happened to Jesus?
Did He also live life inbetween the lines you posted above?
I really don't know what you're saying.
Because you want your saying heard, therefore let the readers decide.
How could you possibly know everything Jesus shared with the Apostles??
He lived with them for years.
What did they talk about for 3.5 years??
Why you're ignorant to the Holy Ghost and the New Testament in context?
I see.
So you believe that when the Apostles were indwelt with the Holy Spirit they then magically knew everything that had ever happened to Jesus in His entire life.
There you go, your speculation and fabrication, even to use the word 'magically'?
Never heard this before-....but it's an interesting concept.
Almost as if the Apostles were not really normal, regular human beings that were taught by Jesus.
He could have saved Himself a lot of time and just told them to wait for the indwelling.
Your 'concept' without proper scripture verification is also distinguishable.
You really dislike Mary.
Maybe she shouldn't have been mentioned at all in the NT?
But she is the Mother of God...
so I believe she deserves some mention.
Well she's mentioned but what you want to speculate and fabricate bisides the scripture, even you claim i dislike Mary?

She's the mother of our Lord and God, is scriptural, i agree

What else?
Same to you Fred.
Please think everything over.
Please do the same wisely according to 2Timothy3:16&17, and not unwisely which is not written.
 

Fred J

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Too bad you don't think of those in the NT as real persons and real history being made.
Maybe you also think Jesus was a cartoon figure headed for the cross.

Maybe in time you'll come to understand that when Peter was hung on a cross in Rome...
a real human being was being hung....not a character from a story.
Don't know what you're 'babbling about, sorry, you're time is up, no thank you.
 

GodsGrace

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Very strange when you don't have a Biblical account saying so.

Because you want your saying heard, therefore let the readers decide.

Why you're ignorant to the Holy Ghost and the New Testament in context?

There you go, your speculation and fabrication, even to use the word 'magically'?

Your 'concept' without proper scripture verification is also distinguishable.

Well she's mentioned but what you want to speculate and fabricate bisides the scripture, even you claim i dislike Mary?

She's the mother of our Lord and God, is scriptural, i agree

What else?

Please do the same wisely according to 2Timothy3:16&17, and not unwisely which is not written.
LOL
OK Fred.

Did you ever wonder how the NT got assembled?
It's not written in the NT.

Do you think the history of the church ended with Revelation 22:21?

I guess so.
 

Fred J

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Joseph, Mary, and Jesus were first visited by the Shepherds shortly after Jesus was born in a stable just outside Bethlehem, since there was no room in the town at the time of His birth (Luke 2:3-20). Later, they were visited by the Magi when living in a house in Bethlehem (Matthew 2:9-11).
i agree.

Is there a scriptural account, either Joseph or Mary told Matthew or Luke or the other disciples ever about this?
 

Fred J

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LOL
OK Fred.

Did you ever wonder how the NT got assembled?
It's not written in the NT.

Do you think the history of the church ended with Revelation 22:21?

I guess so.
LOL

What else about Mary scripturally besides the mother of the Lord and God?
 

GodsGrace

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LOL

What else about Mary scripturally besides the mother of the Lord and God?
Scripturally?
I think you don't get the point.

Here's the point:

Not everything Jesus did, or His mother, or His father, or His cousins.....
are written in the NT.

Doctrine cannot go beyond what is stated in scripture.

But this is not necessarily true of how person lived.
Jesus went to sleep every evening.
Is this stated anywhere?

Jesus was a carpenter. Mark 6:3
Did he work with wood?
Is this all He did?
How could we know?


The church grew.
Does the NT explain how?
What happened after the Apostles died?
 

Fred J

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2. Even as they delievered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;
Acts 1:
21. Where of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
22. Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that He was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witnesswith us of His resurrection.


Brethren, do you 'see' scripturally and spiritually the 'parallel', who supposedly the 'source' for Luke?

This was before they received the Holy Ghost even, whom they shall receive next and 'will lead them into all truth'.
 

Fred J

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Scripturally?
I think you don't get the point.

Here's the point:

Not everything Jesus did, or His mother, or His father, or His cousins.....
are written in the NT.

Doctrine cannot go beyond what is stated in scripture.

But this is not necessarily true of how person lived.
Jesus went to sleep every evening.
Is this stated anywhere?

Jesus was a carpenter. Mark 6:3
Did he work with wood?
Is this all He did?
How could we know?


The church grew.
Does the NT explain how?
What happened after the Apostles died?
First of all, it's not about who is talented than the other, because equally, 'As iron sharpens iron'.

We are here to serve, the Prophets and Apostles have done their work witnessing, also acconts according to the wisdom given them from above.

Since is also canonized according to 2 Timothy 3:16&17, that's my Testament, Old or New, for the church to be discipled and witness accordingly.

How can we 'add' to what has been 'founded', even to the book of Revelation, we're not to 'add anything' besides what's already written?

We are 'workmanship' built in their 'foundation' alone, 'as it is written' and 'for it is written' is our witnessing.
 

Moonwood

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i agree.

Is there a scriptural account, either Joseph or Mary told Matthew or Luke or the other disciples ever about this?

There’s no place in the New Testament where an Evangelist explicitly says, “Mary told me this” or “Joseph told me this.” But the question is indirectly answered by the way the infancy narratives function and by what we know about the early Christian community.

First, Joseph disappears from the Gospel record after Jesus’s childhood, which strongly suggests he died before Jesus began His public ministry. Mary, however, is present throughout Jesus’s life, is at the Cross, and is with the apostles in the early Church (Acts 1:14). So She is the most natural and historically plausible source for the details of Jesus’s conception, birth, and early years.

Second, the infancy narratives in Matthew and Luke contain details that only an intimate family member could have known—Mary’s inner thoughts (Luke 2:19, 51), the circumstances of the Annunciation, Joseph’s dreams, the private events surrounding the Shepherds and the Magi. These are not public events; they are family memories. The early Church preserved them because someone close to Jesus shared them.

Third, Matthew was part of Jesus’s earliest circle of disciples, and Luke tells us directly that he investigated everything “from the beginning” and relied on eyewitnesses (Luke 1:1-4). That means Luke’s account comes from people who were present for these events—Mary above all, and possibly other relatives or early disciples who had heard the story from Her. In addition, Jesus Himself would have learned the story of His birth and early life from both His Mother and Joseph while Joseph was alive. Because the apostles traveled with Jesus, lived with Him, and were frequently around Mary, Matthew and the other apostles would also have heard Jesus recount these events. These were not secret memories; they formed part of the shared life of the apostolic community.

So while the NT never gives us a sentence saying, "Mary told Matthew" or “Mary told Luke,” the shape of the evidence points in that direction. The Church has always understood the infancy narratives as coming from the Holy Family’s own recollections, preserved and handed on to the Evangelists.
 

Fred J

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Scripturally?
I think you don't get the point.

Here's the point:

Not everything Jesus did, or His mother, or His father, or His cousins.....
are written in the NT.

Doctrine cannot go beyond what is stated in scripture.

But this is not necessarily true of how person lived.
Jesus went to sleep every evening.
Is this stated anywhere?

Jesus was a carpenter. Mark 6:3
Did he work with wood?
Is this all He did?
How could we know?


The church grew.
Does the NT explain how?
What happened after the Apostles died?
You have a limtation to the knowledge of the Kingdom(2Timothy3:16&17)

You speculate about me not loving Mary, judge me and yet condemn your 'self' not loving her in the first place. (Romans 2:1)

When ask of you what other things significantly quote about Mary besides 'the mother of our Lord and God'?

No answer, but rather make other unrelevant points to make your assumed version of narative through, which from the beginning am opposed non scriptural.

Let me help you and others, wannabe teachers and instructors who'll be greatly judged. (James 3:1)

Luke 1:
42. And she spake out with a loud voice and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
 

Fred J

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There’s no place in the New Testament where an Evangelist explicitly says, “Mary told me this” or “Joseph told me this.” But the question is indirectly answered by the way the infancy narratives function and by what we know about the early Christian community.
Then it didn't happen, but other women who told others things are mentioned in the New Testament, period
First, Joseph disappears from the Gospel record after Jesus’s childhood, which strongly suggests he died before Jesus began His public ministry. Mary, however, is present throughout Jesus’s life, is at the Cross, and is with the apostles in the early Church (Acts 1:14). So She is the most natural and historically plausible source for the details of Jesus’s conception, birth, and early years.

Second, the infancy narratives in Matthew and Luke contain details that only an intimate family member could have known—Mary’s inner thoughts (Luke 2:19, 51), the circumstances of the Annunciation, Joseph’s dreams, the private events surrounding the Shepherds and the Magi. These are not public events; they are family memories. The early Church preserved them because someone close to Jesus shared them.

Third, Matthew was part of Jesus’s earliest circle of disciples, and Luke tells us directly that he investigated everything “from the beginning” and relied on eyewitnesses (Luke 1:1-4). That means Luke’s account comes from people who were present for these events—Mary above all, and possibly other relatives or early disciples who had heard the story from Her. In addition, Jesus Himself would have learned the story of His birth and early life from both His Mother and Joseph while Joseph was alive. Because the apostles traveled with Jesus, lived with Him, and were frequently around Mary, Matthew and the other apostles would also have heard Jesus recount these events. These were not secret memories; they formed part of the shared life of the apostolic community.

So while the NT never gives us a sentence saying, "Mary told Matthew" or “Mary told Luke,” the shape of the evidence points in that direction. The Church has always understood the infancy narratives as coming from the Holy Family’s own recollections, preserved and handed on to the Evangelists.
What evidence, that Mary was there with the believers in Jerusalem from the beginning, as Luke's source is?

No!

From the beginning Mary and family were not believers and followers of Jesus, unable to 'comphrehend' even prophecy herself and kept them all in her heart.

They were not yet born from above and born again compared to the disicples who were already in the beginning with John the Baptist .

Since 'significantly' He's the 'best man' sent beforehand to make preparation of the 'bride', and hand over her to the 'groom' when He arrives.

Readers,

On my perivious post, i did give scriptures parallel to one another, what Luke meant in regards his 'source', then to write the Gospel according him.

Even Paul born again out of wedlock compared to the 12 Apostles, he sort out them, especially Peter, but also went along since James was with him, Jesus' half-brother.

One example, we have Prisilla and Aquila, as Prisilla also contributed in helping Apollos understand the way of GOD in account, but nothing of Mary sharing.

For one the tradition of social and credibility of women then, was not so reliable to men, as disciple Peter and John had to check it out for themselves, and not believe what Magdalene said.

That's why all along i strongly believe, Luke's source were 'men' believers and followers of Jesus eyewitnesses from the beginning, the chosen and discipled ministers of the word from the beginning.

As Apostles commissioned to all nations, they received the Holy Ghost, for one, who'll lead them into all truth among others.

Even Apostle John in his Gospel said that if they were to write down many other things Jesus did, even the world itself could not contain the books to have them written down. (John21:15)

And why not strongly all the men Apostles' from the beginning with John the Baptist and then FATHER and Jesus, later on full time the Holy Ghost, were solely their only 'source'?

At the same time, why not these are the reliable 'source' Luke is actually mentioned about, who inspired him to write his Gospel?

(More example, even disciple Thomas did not believe the fellow disciples witnesses of Jesus's resurrection, how much more if it was Mary Magdalene, even Mary the mother?)

With all due respect there's no discrimination to women, even though the weakest vessel compared to men according to Apostle Paul.

For they have their equal share of wealth in Heaven, even by their humble ministry under men and submit to men as their head in church on earth.

Thank you very much and shalom in the name of Lord Jesus Christ.
 

Moonwood

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Then it didn't happen, but other women who told others things are mentioned in the New Testament, period

What evidence, that Mary was there with the believers in Jerusalem from the beginning, as Luke's source is?

No!

From the beginning Mary and family were not believers and followers of Jesus, unable to 'comphrehend' even prophecy herself and kept them all in her heart.

They were not yet born from above and born again compared to the disicples who were already in the beginning with John the Baptist .

Since 'significantly' He's the 'best man' sent beforehand to make preparation of the 'bride', and hand over her to the 'groom' when He arrives.

Readers,

On my perivious post, i did give scriptures parallel to one another, what Luke meant in regards his 'source', then to write the Gospel according him.

Even Paul born again out of wedlock compared to the 12 Apostles, he sort out them, especially Peter, but also went along since James was with him, Jesus' half-brother.

One example, we have Prisilla and Aquila, as Prisilla also contributed in helping Apollos understand the way of GOD in account, but nothing of Mary sharing.

For one the tradition of social and credibility of women then, was not so reliable to men, as disciple Peter and John had to check it out for themselves, and not believe what Magdalene said.

That's why all along i strongly believe, Luke's source were 'men' believers and followers of Jesus eyewitnesses from the beginning, the chosen and discipled ministers of the word from the beginning.

As Apostles commissioned to all nations, they received the Holy Ghost, for one, who'll lead them into all truth among others.

Even Apostle John in his Gospel said that if they were to write down many other things Jesus did, even the world itself could not contain the books to have them written down. (John21:15)

And why not strongly all the men Apostles' from the beginning with John the Baptist and then FATHER and Jesus, later on full time the Holy Ghost, were solely their only 'source'?

At the same time, why not these are the reliable 'source' Luke is actually mentioned about, who inspired him to write his Gospel?

(More example, even disciple Thomas did not believe the fellow disciples witnesses of Jesus's resurrection, how much more if it was Mary Magdalene, even Mary the mother?)

With all due respect there's no discrimination to women, even though the weakest vessel compared to men according to Apostle Paul.

For they have their equal share of wealth in Heaven, even by their humble ministry under men and submit to men as their head in church on earth.

Part I.

First, earlier you said you agreed that the Shepherds and Magi visited Jesus — and Scripture records those events. But Scripture often reports events without telling us who told the Evangelists about them. That’s normal in ancient writing. The absence of a sentence like “Mary told Matthew” doesn’t mean the events didn’t happen; it only means the Evangelists didn’t record the mechanics of how they learned the information.

So the conclusion “then it didn’t happen” doesn’t follow. The New Testament routinely reports events without ever naming the transmitter of the information. That’s simply how ancient biography works.

Here are several events you already accept as historical, even though Scripture never tells us who reported them to the Evangelists:
  • The Temptation in the Wilderness — No Gospel says who told Matthew or Luke what Satan said or what Jesus replied.
  • Jesus’ Agony in Gethsemane — The disciples were asleep; no text says who told the Evangelists what Jesus prayed.
  • The Transfiguration — No Gospel says who told Mark or Luke what happened on the mountain.
  • Jesus and Pilate’s Private Dialogue — No Gospel says who reported the conversation.
  • The Angel’s Proclamation at the Empty Tomb — The women heard the angel, but no Gospel says who told the Evangelists what the angel said.
  • Jesus’ Private Prayer in John 17 — No text says who transmitted the prayer to John.
  • Joseph’s Dreams — No Gospel says who told Matthew about Joseph’s inner thoughts or dreams.
  • Satan Entering Judas — No Gospel says who told Luke this happened.
  • Gabriel’s Words to Zechariah — No Gospel says who told Luke what Gabriel said.
In all these cases, the Evangelists report true events without ever narrating the chain of transmission. The infancy narratives are no different.

Second, you are also shifting the standard mid-argument. You agreed the Shepherds and Magi visited Jesus — events recorded only in Matthew and Luke. But now you argue that unless the NT explicitly names the source who told the Evangelists, “it didn’t happen.” That standard contradicts your earlier acceptance of the infancy events.
 

Moonwood

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Part II.

The rest of your reply, @Fred J, turns on several claims about Mary’s faith, Her role among the earliest believers, the reliability of women’s testimony, and who qualifies as an eyewitness “from the beginning.” But when we compare those claims with what Luke actually writes, they simply do not hold up. To keep the discussion clear and grounded in the text, let’s examine each of your assertions directly against Scripture and the historical context Luke himself provides—including your appeal to Thomas’s doubt and to women as “weaker vessels.”

1. Mary was with the believers from the beginning of the Church

Acts 1:14 explicitly states:

“All these with one accord were devoting themselves to prayer, together with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus.”
This is Luke’s own statement. Mary is present in the earliest Christian community before Pentecost, praying with the apostles. That is precisely what “from the beginning” means in Luke’s prologue — the beginning of the Christian proclamation, not John the Baptist’s ministry.

Your claim that Mary “was not a believer” contradicts Luke’s narrative:

  • She accepts the Annunciation in faith (Luke 1:38).
  • Elizabeth calls Her “blessed because She believed” (Luke 1:45).
  • She magnifies the Lord in the Magnificat (Luke 1:46-55).
  • She is present at the Cross (John 19:25).
  • She is present with the apostles in Acts 1:14.
Luke himself identifies Her as a believer.

2. “Keeping things in her heart” does not mean unbelief

Luke 2:19 and 2:51 say Mary “kept” and “pondered” these things. This is meditative faith — the same verb used in the OT for treasuring divine revelation. You are reading “pondering” as “not believing,” but Luke reads it as deep reflection on fulfilled prophecy.

3. Your argument about women’s testimony is irrelevant

You claim women were not reliable sources. But:
  • Luke records women as witnesses (Luke 24:10).
  • Luke relies on women’s testimony (Elizabeth, Anna, Mary).
  • Luke’s Gospel contains more female witnesses than any other Gospel.
If Luke thought women were unreliable, he would not have built his infancy narrative around Mary’s inner thoughts, Mary’s experiences, and Mary’s words. Your argument contradicts Luke’s own literary practice.

Your appeal to Thomas’s doubt and to women as “weaker vessels” does not support your conclusion. Thomas did not disbelieve because the witnesses were women—he disbelieved everyone, including ten male apostles. His doubt has nothing to do with Luke’s sources. And 1 Peter 3:7’s “weaker vessel” language refers to physical vulnerability in marriage, not to reliability, intelligence, or witness value. Luke himself repeatedly relies on women’s testimony, and he records more female witnesses than any other Evangelist. So your argument about women being unreliable sources contradicts Luke’s own Gospel and does not address the infancy narratives at all.

And most importantly: Jesus Himself entrusted the first proclamation of His Resurrection to a woman — Mary Magdalene (John 20:17-18). She is the first commissioned witness of the central event of the Christian faith. If Jesus considered a woman a fully reliable bearer of the most important message ever given, your argument that women were inherently unreliable sources cannot stand.


4. Your “only men were sources” claim contradicts Luke’s prologue

Luke 1:1-4 says he relied on:
  • “eyewitnesses”
  • “ministers of the word”
  • “those who were from the beginning”
Mary fits all three:
  • She witnessed the Annunciation, Visitation, Nativity, Presentation, and Finding in the Temple.
  • She was present at the Cross.
  • She was present with the apostles in Acts 1:14.
  • She was present “from the beginning” of the Church.
Your claim that only men qualify is not in the text.

5. Your “born again” argument is irrelevant

No one was “born again” in the Johannine sense until after the Resurrection. By your logic, no one could have been Luke’s source — not Peter, not John, not James.

This collapses your own argument.


6. Your examples (Priscilla, Aquila, Thomas, etc.) do not prove your point

None of these examples address the infancy narratives. None show that Mary could not be a source. None show that Luke rejected female testimony. None show that only men were “from the beginning.”

They are irrelevant to the question at hand.


7. The infancy narratives contain details only Mary could have known

This is decisive.

Matthew and Luke record:

  • Mary’s inner thoughts (Luke 2:19, 51)
  • The Annunciation (Luke 1:26-38)
  • Joseph’s private dreams (Matthew 1-2)
  • The private events surrounding the Shepherds and Magi
  • The family’s movements
  • The Presentation and Finding in the Temple
These are family memories. They are not public events. They are not apostolic events. They are not events witnessed by “men from the beginning.”

They come from the Holy Family.


8. Jesus Himself would have told the apostles His early‑life story

You have not addressed this point.

Jesus lived with the apostles for years. Jesus would have learned His early‑life story from Mary and Joseph. Jesus would have recounted it to His disciples.

This alone refutes your claim that only “men from the beginning” could be sources.


9. You have not refuted the actual argument

Your reply does not address:
  • Mary’s presence in Acts 1:14
  • Mary’s eyewitness role
  • Mary’s faith
  • Mary’s unique access to the infancy events
  • Jesus recounting His early life to the apostles
  • The apostles’ proximity to Mary
  • The nature of ancient biography
  • The fact that the NT routinely records events without naming the source
Therefore, you have not refuted the reasons I gave for why Mary — and Jesus Himself — were the sources for the apostles’ and later disciples’ knowledge of His birth and early life.