Who goes back with Jesus in the pre-tribulation rapture?

[rwb]

I'm trying to picture how a spirit can eat a piece of fruit at the marriage supper of the lamb.
Can a spirit chew? Will the fruit drop through them and land on the floor and make a mess for the angels to clean up?

While clothed in human flesh and blood, Christ is fully human while never ceasing to be fully God.

 

[rwb]

That doesn't address the issues in Rev 21. How can NJ be the bride and the bride enter into that same city? We can discuss other verses once this one is settled.

The city as it now is in heaven is a spiritual habitation through the spiritual body or living souls of all who died after being born again. It's not until the first heaven and earth have passed away that the holy city, new Jerusalem will come down in human form made immortal & incorruptible physically as "a bride adorned for her husband."

Revelation 21:1-2 (KJV) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

 

[IndianaRob]

The city as it now is in heaven is a spiritual habitation through the spiritual body or living souls of all who died after being born again. It's not until the first heaven and earth have passed away that the holy city, new Jerusalem will come down in human form made immortal & incorruptible physically as "a bride adorned for her husband."

Revelation 21:1-2 (KJV) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Galatians 4:26 says Jerusalem above is "the mother of us all," written to living believers. How is she their mother if she's made of people who have died?

 

[ewq1938]

Sticking with Revelation 21 as you asked. Verse 9 — "Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife." Then verse 10 shows him the city. That's the passage identifying the two as the same thing.

He also shows people entering the city. That's the bride that was shown. The city isn't called the bride. It's adorned as a bride but many places/homes can be adorned like that FOR the bride to enjoy etc.

Nothing in the chapter says the bride enters.

It does. The bride are the saved who are in the BoF and they do enter the city.

Verse 24 says the nations and the kings of the earth. Verse 27 says those written in the book of life. No mention of the bride entering.

They are the bride.

Eph 5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
Eph 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
Eph 5:33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

The saved who has their names in the book of life are the body and bride of Christ. The people mentioned in Rev 21 are the bride, the body and the church. Many terms, same people.

 

[rwb]

Galatians 4:26 says Jerusalem above is "the mother of us all," written to living believers. How is she their mother if she's made of people who have died?

Jerusalem above is the mother of all who have been born again both in life and after death. Because when we have been born again we both know and have spiritually entered the Kingdom of God in heaven through the Spirit of Christ is us. In spirit we are humans made perfect and possess eternal life by spirit through the Spirit of Christ in us.

Hebrews 12:22-24 (KJV) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

 

[IndianaRob]

Jerusalem above is the mother of all who have been born again both in life and after death. Because when we have been born again we both know and have spiritually entered the Kingdom of God in heaven through the Spirit of Christ is us. In spirit we are humans made perfect and possess eternal life by spirit through the Spirit of Christ in us.

Hebrews 12:22-24 (KJV) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

I agree with that but it doesn't explain how heavenly Jerusalem is the mother of us all. Here is an example of a member of heavenly Jerusalem travailing to birth Christ in a believer. Christ is birthed through preaching the word by a person located on this earth.

Galatians 4:19
My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

 

[ewq1938]

I agree with that but it doesn't explain how heavenly Jerusalem is the mother of us all.

Doesn't that show the city is not also the Church/saved people?

It's just symbolic language in relation to the city. The city is literal, how it mothers Christians is spiritual in nature.

 

[IndianaRob]

Doesn't that show the city is not also the Church/saved people?

It's just symbolic language in relation to the city. The city is literal, how it mothers Christians is spiritual in nature.

I think the city is symbolic of the people. Revelation is given in symbolic language, and it interprets its own symbols constantly — the seven stars are the angels of the churches, the waters are peoples and multitudes, the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

So when the angel says "come, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife," and then shows John a city, that's the same pattern. The city is the picture. The bride is the reality.

 

[rwb]

I agree with that but it doesn't explain how heavenly Jerusalem is the mother of us all. Here is an example of a member of heavenly Jerusalem travailing to birth Christ in a believer. Christ is birthed through preaching the word by a person located on this earth.

Galatians 4:19
My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

We are born again (birthed) through Christ as we hear the gospel of the Kingdom of God and according to grace through faith we believe. It is in that manner that whosoever has been born again are children of heavenly Jerusalem.

The church of Galatia believed there was still merit before God under the Old Law. They had learned otherwise through preaching by Paul. Those who had been under the Law had been redeemed becoming sons according to adoption through the Spirit of Christ. They had gone from being servants to the Law, and heirs of God through faith in Christ.

Galatians 4:5 (KJV) To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Galatians 4:6 (KJV) And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Galatians 4:7 (KJV) Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

For whatever reason some among them believed after having become heirs of God with Christ they should turn again to the Law that brought them under bondage. After having been born again through Paul's preaching, he thought it necessary for them to once again recall the travail or difficulties that come when faithfully preaching the gospel to them, now it seemed he needed to once again preach the gospel until it became apparent that Christ was formed in them. IOW proclaiming to have been born again and an heir of God with Christ, but turning back to the Law, shows their profession of faith did not outwardly show them as a new creation that is Christ like through His Spirit within them.

Galatians 4:9 (KJV) But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Galatians 4:19 (KJV) My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

 

[CrowCross]

In Revelation how do you decide whether something is literal or symbolic?

I would say you take it as literal until you can't.

Are you saying Revelation is only symbolic?

 

[CrowCross]

No, the Bible teaches we shall be caught up to meet the Lord in the clouds pre-wrath, but does not teach pre-trib. Because Scripture affirms Christ disciples must endure much tribulation entering into the Kingdom of God.

Acts 14:22 (KJV) Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

2 Timothy 3:12 (KJV) Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Although faithful saints in this life are appointed to endure through great affliction, tribulation, but gives us assurance that we shall be delivered from the wrath of God that shall come on the children of disobedience.

1 Thessalonians 5:9-10 (KJV) For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 (KJV) And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 3:3 (KJV) That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto.

The tribulation when you have a bad day....lose a job, find yourself in the middle of an earthquake, lose a loved one, get bit by a dog.....is not the wrath of God tribulation presented in Revelation.

 

[CrowCross]

So you believe Jerusalem above, the holy city that shall come down from heaven is a brick & mortar physical building?

Are you saying the bride of Christ has 12 gates? Was 1,380 miles long, high and wide?

As to "brick and mortar"....I would say Jasper and mortar...wouldn't you? It is presented as a physical building. Why couldn't a God who created the world and universe be able to make such a city?

 

[CrowCross]

While clothed in human flesh and blood, Christ is fully human while never ceasing to be fully God.

I was showing you that your statement ..."None will be bodily changed before the hour coming when the last/seventh trumpet sounds"....and using the marriage supper of the Lamb proved you were wrong.

You never did answer my question....will the food simply drop through the spirits and land on the gold floor?

 

[rebuilder 454]

No, the Bible teaches we shall be caught up to meet the Lord in the clouds pre-wrath, but does not teach pre-trib. Because Scripture affirms Christ disciples must endure much tribulation entering into the Kingdom of God.

Acts 14:22 (KJV) Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

2 Timothy 3:12 (KJV) Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Although faithful saints in this life are appointed to endure through great affliction, tribulation, but gives us assurance that we shall be delivered from the wrath of God that shall come on the children of disobedience.

1 Thessalonians 5:9-10 (KJV) For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 (KJV) And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 3:3 (KJV) That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto.

Jesus said "before the flood, normal life, normal activities, half a group is taken, watch and be ready"
So tell it to Jesus. Since you say he is wrong.

Mat 24
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Are you saying the bride of Christ has 12 gates? Was 1,380 miles long, high and wide?

As to "brick and mortar"....I would say Jasper and mortar...wouldn't you? It is presented as a physical building. Why couldn't a God who created the world and universe be able to make such a city?

The fact he even goes there, is pathetic.
Pretty sure he is amil.
They use a different Bible and the conversation is beyond tedious.

Amil = antisemitism.

 

[rebuilder 454]

So you believe Jerusalem above, the holy city that shall come down from heaven is a brick & mortar physical building?

You can make it most anything you want.
What do you want it to be?

 

[rebuilder 454]

Ephesians 5:31, the twain shall be one flesh, and Paul says he speaks concerning Christ and the church. Can you explain how that isn’t a marriage?

Apples / Oranges.

How does the bride become the wife in heaven as rev 19 declares?

I really do not care, as EVERY THING i have presented, you have some bizarre reframing.
EVERYTHING.
Way too tedious.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Ephesians 5:31, the twain shall be one flesh, and Paul says he speaks concerning Christ and the church. Can you explain how that isn’t a marriage?

If you need it to be something other than what the bible says...I really couldn't care less.

 

[rebuilder 454]

In Revelation how do you decide whether something is literal or symbolic?

It is obviously a tangible building.
Beyond obvious.

Wow
How tedious.

What's next?
The scroll in Rev 5 is not real either?
The white horses are not really horses in Rev 19?

 

[CrowCross]

The fact he even goes there, is pathetic.
Pretty sure he is amil.
They use a different Bible and the conversation is beyond tedious.

Amil = antisemitism.

Everything is pushed into a symbolic reality.