What happened to the 10 toes in Daniel 2?

[CTK]

ten horns

Here is the progression of the 10 toes throughout the Book of Daniel. Just as God will use different symbols for the 4 kingdoms in chapters 2, 7 and 8, He will also use different symbols for this power:

In Chapter 2 - 10 toes,
In Chapter 7 - 10 horns,
In Chapter 7 - 10 kings,
In Chapter 7 - Saints of the Most High

So, who are these 10?

 

[quietthinker]

Here is the progression of the 10 toes throughout the Book of Daniel. Just as God will use different symbols for the 4 kingdoms in chapters 2, 7 and 8, He will also use different symbols for this power:

In Chapter 2 - 10 toes,
In Chapter 7 - 10 horns,
In Chapter 7 - 10 kings,
In Chapter 7 - Saints of the Most High

So, who are these 10?

If we are to use the interpretation Daniel gives of feet and ten toes of iron and clay being strong nations and weak nations do we apply that globally or just to Western Europe?
Seeing biblical consciousness has moved from a limited global awareness to global awareness post the Roman Empire, I would suggest the ten toes as well as the ten horns is a generic number for strong and weak nations globally.

There is more to be said regarding this however on the basis of, 'in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a Kingdom that will never be destroyed' Daniel 2:44.
Subsequently, Jesus (the rock) will return in the clouds to a global audience not just a Western European/ Middle Eastern audience.

 

[Brakelite]

They became 7 Rev 13 & 17

I can't see that, as the ten kings are just that...10. The ten toes were ten, but were reduced to 7 when 3 were ripped up by the roots, meaning destroyed and never returned. So the ten kings in Revelation are a different set of 10 altogether.

 

[CTK]

If we are to use the interpretation Daniel gives of feet and ten toes of iron and clay being strong nations and weak nations do we apply that globally or just to Western Europe?
Seeing biblical consciousness has moved from a limited global awareness to global awareness post the Roman Empire, I would suggest the ten toes as well as the ten horns is a generic number for strong and weak nations globally.

There is more to be said regarding this however on the basis of, 'in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a Kingdom that will never be destroyed' Daniel 2:44.
Subsequently, Jesus (the rock) will return in the clouds to a global audience not just a Western European/ Middle Eastern audience.

Thanks for the response. First, do you believe the Book of Daniel is concerned about secular kingdoms? God has indeed brought forward 4 and only 4 kingdoms within His plan of restoration and salvation - first for His people and His city as they return from exile, but in a broader way, for all mankind through the arrival and sacrifice of His Messiah. So, everyone of His prophecies will occur within these 4 kingdoms. The 4th kingdom begins as Imperial Rome and this kingdom will continue until He returns, however, it will and has gone through its second phase subsequent to the demise of Imperial Rome in 476 AD (Daniel 7:11). These 4 kingdoms are the only ones God brought out of the sea.... no others will be discussed in either Daniel or Revelation. These prophetic books are about Him and His plan to restore mankind back into His presence... nothing to do with Europe, Islam, EU, Russia, etc. Those powers can be found in our history books only.

Now, once you might be able to accept that, one can begin to study Daniel which provides all of the information anyone will need to unpack His messages. For example, we find the 10 toes are within the iron feet of Imperial Rome in chapter 2. We find the clay also within the iron feet of Imperial Rome. But God brought forward 4 kingdoms - all of them distinguished in two ways (belt and suspenders approach). One is that each of the 4 kingdoms is associated with specific part of a man, and the second of course, is that each is symbolized by a specific type of metal. Meaning, the first hurdle one must get over is the legs and feet of Imperial Rome is represented by iron, not iron and clay. Rome would never partner with any nation, power or group of people and share its empire. Thus, the clay must represent something else entirely - something that God wants us to see since this is His plan and His story about the coming Messiah.

So, if you want to look through the Old Testament you will have no problem discovering that God will refer to His Covenant people as clay - and where He can mold them into whatever He pleases for His purposes. And it is no coincidence the clay is found / portrayed in the feet at the time of the coming of the Messiah. His people are held captive within the Imperial Roman Empire. They are not destroyed or annihilated by Rome but allowed to exist and even worship their invisible God. This is the setting at the time of the feet with the iron and clay mixed together but could never be truly united or combined - two very different elements.

Now, if the clay represents the Jewish nation after they have returned from Babylon, and this would be 483 years after Artaxeres issued his decree in 457 BC to the Jews allowing them to rebuild the temple and the city, then we are at the time of the beginning of the 70th week of the prophecy - one 7 year period left and this is when the Messiah arrives - on the first day of the last week when He will be baptized in the Jordan to begin His ministry.

So if you can accept the above, then it should not be too difficult to identify the 10 toes also found in the feet at the time of these happenings.

 

[amigo de christo]

Here is the progression of the 10 toes throughout the Book of Daniel. Just as God will use different symbols for the 4 kingdoms in chapters 2, 7 and 8, He will also use different symbols for this power:

In Chapter 2 - 10 toes,
In Chapter 7 - 10 horns,
In Chapter 7 - 10 kings,
In Chapter 7 - Saints of the Most High

So, who are these 10?

well it darn sure aint the saints of the most high .
Its ten kings who are given power and will surrender unto the will of the beast .
They will first persecute the true saints who did not conform to the all inclusive ecumeincal god of false love
and its CHRIST denying peace plan . Then later GOD will use them as well to roast , dest roy the harlot .
I know new age beleives they are the riders of the horses and etc and will clean up this world ,
But they are totally been decieved by their own god .

 

[Marvelloustime]

ten kings who have recieved no kingdom as of yet but attain power as kings and give their power unto the beast .

@amigo de christo

 

[Marvelloustime]

well it darn sure aint the saints of the most high .
Its ten kings who are given power and will surrender unto the will of the beast .
They will first persecute the true saints who did not conform to the all inclusive ecumeincal god of false love
and its CHRIST denying peace plan . Then later GOD will use them as well to roast , dest roy the harlot .
I know new age beleives they are the riders of the horses and etc and will clean up this world ,
But they are totally been decieved by their own god .

@amigo de christo

 

[Brakelite]

Thanks for the response. First, do you believe the Book of Daniel is concerned about secular kingdoms? God has indeed brought forward 4 and only 4 kingdoms within His plan of restoration and salvation - first for His people and His city as they return from exile, but in a broader way, for all mankind through the arrival and sacrifice of His Messiah. So, everyone of His prophecies will occur within these 4 kingdoms. The 4th kingdom begins as Imperial Rome and this kingdom will continue until He returns, however, it will and has gone through its second phase subsequent to the demise of Imperial Rome in 476 AD (Daniel 7:11). These 4 kingdoms are the only ones God brought out of the sea.... no others will be discussed in either Daniel or Revelation. These prophetic books are about Him and His plan to restore mankind back into His presence... nothing to do with Europe, Islam, EU, Russia, etc. Those powers can be found in our history books only.

Now, once you might be able to accept that, one can begin to study Daniel which provides all of the information anyone will need to unpack His messages. For example, we find the 10 toes are within the iron feet of Imperial Rome in chapter 2. We find the clay also within the iron feet of Imperial Rome. But God brought forward 4 kingdoms - all of them distinguished in two ways (belt and suspenders approach). One is that each of the 4 kingdoms is associated with specific part of a man, and the second of course, is that each is symbolized by a specific type of metal. Meaning, the first hurdle one must get over is the legs and feet of Imperial Rome is represented by iron, not iron and clay. Rome would never partner with any nation, power or group of people and share its empire. Thus, the clay must represent something else entirely - something that God wants us to see since this is His plan and His story about the coming Messiah.

So, if you want to look through the Old Testament you will have no problem discovering that God will refer to His Covenant people as clay - and where He can mold them into whatever He pleases for His purposes. And it is no coincidence the clay is found / portrayed in the feet at the time of the coming of the Messiah. His people are held captive within the Imperial Roman Empire. They are not destroyed or annihilated by Rome but allowed to exist and even worship their invisible God. This is the setting at the time of the feet with the iron and clay mixed together but could never be truly united or combined - two very different elements.

Now, if the clay represents the Jewish nation after they have returned from Babylon, and this would be 483 years after Artaxeres issued his decree in 457 BC to the Jews allowing them to rebuild the temple and the city, then we are at the time of the beginning of the 70th week of the prophecy - one 7 year period left and this is when the Messiah arrives - on the first day of the last week when He will be baptized in the Jordan to begin His ministry.

So if you can accept the above, then it should not be too difficult to identify the 10 toes also found in the feet at the time of these happenings.

You consider the 4th kingdom as morphing into its papal stage till Christ comes, thus transforming from a secular power to spiritual. The other 3 powers are present in the first beast of Revelation 13, also a spiritual power, but how are 3 former secular kingdoms/ empires now composites within a modern spiritual power? Because the papacy inherited their spiritual philosophies. Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece (and Rome) bequeathed their spiritual prerogatives to that power which followed them...

“As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time. ”
Daniel 7:12

.... which is papal Rome, which is now no longer a local literal power in Europe, but a spiritual global power with ambitions for global dominance. I suggest that the powers God is concerned with, specifically the 7 heads of that beast, in order are therefore...
Babylon
Medo- Persia
Geeece
Rome (pagan)
Rome (papal)
Protestantism
Atheism/ spiritualism.
The eighth head is of the 7... it is the revived papal head after the healing of the apparent mortal wound of 1798.
Old Testament local secular powers.
New Testament global spiritual powers.

 

[CTK]

You consider the 4th kingdom as morphing into its papal stage till Christ comes, thus transforming from a secular power to spiritual. The other 3 powers are present in the first beast of Revelation 13, also a spiritual power, but how are 3 former secular kingdoms/ empires now composites within a modern spiritual power? Because the papacy inherited their spiritual philosophies. Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece (and Rome) bequeathed their spiritual prerogatives to that power which followed them...

“As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time. ”
Daniel 7:12

.... which is papal Rome, which is now no longer a local literal power in Europe, but a spiritual global power with ambitions for global dominance. I suggest that the powers God is concerned with, specifically the 7 heads of that beast, in order are therefore...
Babylon
Medo- Persia
Geeece
Rome (pagan)
Rome (papal)
Protestantism
Atheism/ spiritualism.
The eighth head is of the 7... it is the revived papal head after the healing of the apparent mortal wound of 1798.
Old Testament local secular powers.
New Testament global spiritual powers.

Well, the first 3 kingdoms were indeed folded into / under the 4th kingdom and they would never again come to power.

Regarding the second phase of the 4th kingdom of Rome, after 476 AD the religious-political power would come to power with the littl horn as its head. It would come to sit atop the beast. Remember that in the early part of chapter 7 both the 10 horns (first) and then the little horn were shown to come out of the 4th kingdom. Later, it would sit atop the beast.

Now, if 476 AD represents Daniel 7:11 (the demise of Imperial Rome), then it means both the little horn and the 10 horns had to come out of the 4th beast BEFORE its demise. And they both did!

So, if the clay in the feet symbolizes the Jewish nation what do they ou think the 10 toes represent?

And take it one step further- why would God change the symbol of the 10 toes to 10 horns in the beginning of chapter 7?

And even one more thought - what would cause these changes to be made by God (symbols from 2 to 7)?

 

[Douggg]

Here is the progression of the 10 toes throughout the Book of Daniel. Just as God will use different symbols for the 4 kingdoms in chapters 2, 7 and 8, He will also use different symbols for this power:

In Chapter 2 - 10 toes,
In Chapter 7 - 10 horns,
In Chapter 7 - 10 kings,
In Chapter 7 - Saints of the Most High

So, who are these 10?

They are ten kings (leaders) of the fourth kingdom (the Roman Empire) manifested in the end times. Ten EU leaders.

Who they are exactly, personal identification, as well as the little horn person, will be before the Gog/Magog event takes place - which should be sometime before the end of 2030.

 

[covenantee]

They are ten kings (leaders) of the fourth kingdom (the Roman Empire) manifested in the end times. Ten EU leaders.

Who they are exactly, personal identification, as well as the little horn person, will be before the Gog/Magog event takes place - which should be sometime before the end of 2030.

Scripture and history have told us exactly what and who they are.

For those who believe Scripture and history.

Daniel 7

Ten historical Roman horns (kingdoms) which arose out of the fourth beast/kingdom of the Roman empire, and their first or early kings:

Heruli - Anthyrius I
Suevi - Hermeric
Burgundians - Gjúki
Huns - Attila
Ostrogoths - Theodoric
Visigoths - Alaric I
Vandals - Genseric
Lombards - Lethuc
Franks - Ascaric
Anglo-Saxons - Alfred the Great

Roman little horn (kingdom) and king: The Roman papacy, governed by pope Gelasius I when the first of the three kings in Daniel 7:8,20,24, Odoacer of the Heruli, was overthrown in 493 AD.

The three kings overthrown ("subdued"): Odoacer of the Heruli in 493 AD, Gelimer of the Vandals in 534 AD, Teia of the Ostrogoths in 553 AD.

 

[CTK]

Scripture and history have told us exactly what and who they are.

For those who believe Scripture and history.

Daniel 7

Ten historical Roman horns (kingdoms) which arose out of the fourth beast/kingdom of the Roman empire, and their first or early kings:

Heruli - Anthyrius I
Suevi - Hermeric
Burgundians - Gjúki
Huns - Attila
Ostrogoths - Theodoric
Visigoths - Alaric I
Vandals - Genseric
Lombards - Lethuc
Franks - Ascaric
Anglo-Saxons - Alfred the Great

Roman little horn (kingdom) and king: The Roman papacy, governed by pope Gelasius I when the first of the three kings in Daniel 7:8,20,24, Odoacer of the Heruli, was overthrown in 493 AD.

The three kings overthrown ("subdued"): Odoacer of the Heruli in 493 AD, Gelimer of the Vandals in 534 AD, Teia of the Ostrogoths in 553 AD.

That is right out of the SDA playbook. They have interpreted so much right of Daniel but beginning in Chapter 7 they continue to try and match up the prophecies with our history books.

Both the 10 horns and the little horn come out of the 4th beast BEFORE the demise of pagan Rome in 476AD (7:11).

 

[Douggg]

Both the 10 horns and the little horn come out of the 4th beast BEFORE the demise of pagan Rome in 476AD (7:11).

So who are you saying is the little horn ?

 

[Scott Downey]

Except, according to the verse, it does:



Iron and clay are successfully mingled. It says so in the verse. The point is that the 'mingling' is not done through the normal cleaving process of procreation. It is done by some other unnatural or supernatural means.

The other means is described here:



It was a form of kenosis. The Ten Kings are not of this world. The mingling is a hybrid program by fallen angels as per Scripture.

They are combined together but they do not merge together as a unit or compound. Meaning they could be separated again. My view is it shows them with weak feet. They don't walk together well, they are fractious. The kings fight and put down other kings. They do not get along with each other.

 

[CTK]

They are combined together but they do not merge together as a unit or compound. Meaning they could be separated again. My view is it shows them with weak feet. They don't walk together well, they are fractious. The kings fight and put down other kings. They do not get along with each other.

Can you possibly see that God is symbolizing His covenant people within the iron kingdom of pagan Rome at the time of His arrival? And look what happens in 2:34 - the Stone (Jesus) does not come to destroy but to separate the iron and the clay elements within the feet.

This would then determine what parts of the clay would accept Him as their Messiah and those that would reject Him.

If you look within verses 2:41 to 45 you will see that there are now two types of clay- pottery clay representing those who accepted Him and miry or ceramic clay - those who had hardened their hearts against Him and would not accept Him as their Messiah. Jesus came to divide not to destroy.

 

[covenantee]

That is right out of the SDA playbook. They have interpreted so much right of Daniel but beginning in Chapter 7 they continue to try and match up the prophecies with our history books.

Both the 10 horns and the little horn come out of the 4th beast BEFORE the demise of pagan Rome in 476AD (7:11).

It is right out of the Reformation Scriptural prophetic history book, which pre-dates SDA by more than two centuries.

Yes, the 11 horns/kingdoms were already in existence before the demise of pagan Rome, which in the years leading up to 476 AD was no longer capable of overcoming challenges to its empire.

 

[Jay Ross]

Well, my two cents worth is that scripture in Daniel 8, tells us that the first three people groups that had dominion over Babylon was:-

1. King Neb of Babylon
2. The Medes and the Persians and the third one was
3. The Grecian Empire to the north of Babylon, the Seleucid Empire
4. Iraq from 1926 to 2003 AD and then
5. The many nations, i.e. the toes/feet of the fifth segment of the Statue Prophecy led by the USA, which has exercised dominion over Iraq, from 2003 up and until this present time.

It should be noted that around 120 BC the Seleucid Empire devasted and desolated the Land of Babylon and loaded the utilities of Babylon and its people as Jeremiah foretold in Jer 50:39 to the furthest parts of their empire such that the Land of Babylon was devoid of utility structures and people for a period two ages/ around 2,024 solar years.

Then in 1926 AD the British and French governments divided up the Otterman Empire which had been defeated in WWI and designated that the newly formed nation of Iraq would have dominion over the land of Babylon. such that during the last 100 years the people groups who had dominion over the Land of Babylon was the nation of Iraq and then the USA in league with many nations/kings, i.e. nominally 20 nations, and has exercised the USA dominion over the nation of Iraq and hence the Land of Babylon.

It should also be noted that the Daniel 2 Statue Prophecy has no connection with the Beasts of Daniel 7 who have consistently exercised influence over people groups, nations and Empires to do their respective bidding. It should also be noted that Isaiah 24:21-22 tells us that the beasts will be finally overcome and judged in heaven at the same time as the Kings of the earth acting in league with the Little Horn to trample God's Sanctuary and His earthly Hosts, i.e. the nation of Israel.

The Judged Kings of the earth along with the Judged Heavenly Hosts will be imprisons for a season, i.e. for 1,000 years, and kept alive so that they can be released during the Little While period oof approximately 24 years before the Judged Heavenly Host are captured and dispatched into the Lake of fire just before the Second Advent of Christ and the final judgement of mankind.

At the present time the many kings that joined the USA to invade Iraq in 2003 to heal the lad of Babylon instead of invading Iraq to destroy the Land of Babylon are being punished by God who is allowing many men to occupy the counties of the respective kings to consume much in the land like Locust and to raise up a shout of victory over the respective nations that they are presently consuming at this time.

So, what has happened to the ten toes mentioned in the Daniel 2 Statue prophecy and the prophecies found in Jeremiah 50-51, not that much yet except God's punishment on the toes for disobeying God's words to utterly destroy the Land of Babylon.

Many of the thoughts expressed in this thread are just the imaginations of the authors' respective posts.

Shalom

 

[ewq1938]

Well, the first 3 kingdoms were indeed folded into / under the 4th kingdom and they would never again come to power.

That's not what Dan 7 says since all three survive past the death and destruction of the 4th kingdom. They aren't folded into the 4th kingdom, and they remained "in power" after the 4th was gone.