What is the purpose of Grace?

[Hepzibah]

And now for question, why actively looking for more experiences with God than you actually already got. Sure, it feels great but those experiences always came on the initiative of the Spirit, not by ourselves, not because we ask for more.

It's not about this. It is about a desire live at a deeper, more spiritual level, turning from the things of the world and having ones relationship with God fill ones life more and more till relatively, nothing else matters.

It is the desire for a pure heart and victory over the thoughts like lack of trust in God.

Catholic mystics like Guyon had a hard time with the authorities of the church and were often put in jail. They were not encouraged and it is not hard to see why, taking away the power of the church.

Guyon was queen of the Quietists and many thought that she was too far into passivity. I find her writings too complicated though there are good things.

Even John Wesley gained from her writings but expressed caution.

 

[shepherdsword]

And now for question, why actively looking for more experiences with God than you actually already got. Sure, it feels great but those experiences always came on the initiative of the Spirit, not by ourselves, not because we ask for more.

Would you not want an experience where the Holy Spirit is flowing from you in such outward force it keeps sin from getting in and allows you to walk in the Father's perfect will? I know this can only happen with a special dispensation of grace at God's discretion but I think such a desire comes from a pure heart.

 

[shepherdsword]

Be careful of relying on other people too much instead of God. If any lacks wisdom we can ask the Lord and He will give it freely, and I've found Him to be true to His word.

I want to tell you and @MostlyConfused about something. I found myself in a thread one day where one of Epi's most ardent supporters was fawning over someone just because they were Catholic......at that same time the Lord gave me such a strong download from heaven that it literally short-circuited my brain.......saying that the ruling spirit of the Catholic church IS NOT THE HOLY SPIRIT. So I want to say be careful with what you are imbibing sisters. The old frog in the pot proverb slowly warming to a boil, comes to mind. Wrestling not with flesh and blood but with powers and principalities in HIGH places.

I don't think anyone was promoting the Catholic church. It was more about gleaning from Godly people who were in that system and were even persecuted by it.

 

[Lizbeth]

There’s a lion outside! Don’t go out there’s a lion in the streets!

Do you think that is why the Holy Spirit showed me what He did?? It was for my good. And for the good of anyone who receives it. What is more dangerous than a lion is a lion dressed as a lamb.

 

[Lizbeth]

@shepherdsword.....it's not letting me quote your post for some reason. Just want to say that my first paragraph was for you in response to what you said. The second paragraph was for all of us in general....guardrails. But faithful are the wounds of a friend, no?

 

[amigo de christo]

@shepherdsword.....it's not letting me quote your post for some reason. Just want to say that my first paragraph was for you in response to what you said. The second paragraph was for all of us in general....guardrails. But faithful are the wounds of a friend, no?

may i quickly again remind us all that we have some here who preach another gospel all together .

 

[Lizbeth]

I don't think anyone was promoting the Catholic church. It was more about gleaning from Godly people who were in that system and were even persecuted by it.

If someone is gleaning from Catholics sources..........they need to be very discerning. And it is so easy to gradually slide away from the plumbline of God's word if we are reading other things more than the word. Also, we can easily become "joined" with the spirit (if that's the right way to say it) of that which we are sitting under.

 

[Lizbeth]

That’s like saying, Lunch is ready everyone! But I’m also not done making lunch yet.
And I have not seen that man boast ANYWHERE! In fact, he seems to me to even be Leary of having his posts liked. And we have already been through fear of our own arrogance and flesh and you probably can’t dampen any of us in this as God begins to give us peace. And hope. And some stirrings of joy after such agonies.

Except that we are talking about SPIRITUAL things, not lunch.

 

[shepherdsword]

If someone is gleaning from Catholics sources..........they need to be very discerning. And it is so easy to gradually slide away from the plumbline of God's word if we are reading other things more than the word. Also, we can easily become "joined" with the spirit (if that's the right way to say it) of that which we are sitting under.

I agree that we don't want to get entangled with the RCC. Some fought the system from the outside like Luther (who then setup his own system) and others fought it from the inside like the mystics.

 

[Marvelloustime]

may i quickly again remind us all that we have some here who preach another gospel all together .

@amigo de christo

 

[Episkopos]

I don't think anyone was promoting the Catholic church. It was more about gleaning from Godly people who were in that system and were even persecuted by it.

People who have believed another gospel have also received another spirit that condemns anything (and passionately warns them) that doesn't line up with their religious conditioning. For these...it is about them.

They include themselves in their exclusivity. And they exclude those who know the Lord....they are seen as a threat.

 

[ProDeo]

Would you not want an experience where the Holy Spirit is flowing from you in such outward force it keeps sin from getting in and allows you to walk in the Father's perfect will? I know this can only happen with a special dispensation of grace at God's discretion but I think such a desire comes from a pure heart.

I don't doubt anyone's intention, everyone wants to live a holy life, but I am curious about the method, strange teachings (not you) from people looking for (more) experiences from God as if walking in faith is not enough.

 

[Episkopos]

This is excellent! I have experienced this to a smaller degree but am watching and praying for a full infusion. It cost all but the return is well worth it. The refreshing coolness of God's presence is all we need.

(have to put a scriptural reference for those with a mechanical understanding)

Jn 7:37-38
If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

I normally describe this enslavement to word groupings without understanding as being "dogmatic." But "mechanical" works too.

As in...you just "bible" know that. You don't really know it. The letter kills, the Spirit gives life.

 

[Lizbeth]

I agree that we don't want to get entangled with the RCC. Some fought the system from the outside like Luther (who then setup his own system) and others fought it from the inside like the mystics.

I don't know what you mean by fighting it from the inside....? We are told not to be unequally yoked with unbelievers but come out from among them and be separate. And concerning Mystery Babylon it is the same instruction....."come out of her my people lest ye receive of her plagues".......touch not the unclean thing (her mixture). At some point a true believer needs to get out of there and renounce it, whether any others come with them or not. Same with any protestant churches that have become apostate...we need to walk away from anything that claims to be of God but has fallen away or never was of Him in the first place. That doesn't mean we can't try to reach individual souls........but not by being unequally yoked with them.

Catholicism can't be "fixed".......it needs to be exposed and torn down period. "If the foundations are destroyed, what can the righteous do?" (Psa 11:3) The righteous can do nothing in such cases, it can't be fixed...........just leave it. It's like a house in the old testament that has gone mouldy....can't live there or clean it out...it needs to be burned down. Which the Lord will do eventually, when the time comes to judge her, just like He did with apostate Jerusalem and Temple.

 

[Episkopos]

I don't doubt anyone's intention, everyone wants to live a holy life, but I am curious about the method, strange teachings (not you) from people looking for (more) experiences from God as if walking in faith is not enough.

The whole idea of a gospel on two levels...for the righteous and the holy...is that it is the simplicity that is mainly, by far, attainable by all. It's just that we can't take away the higher walk from the equation to make people feel good about themselves. The higher walk is there for a reason. Those who are jealous or envious or just against the higher walk have the spirit of Cain...as we see here.

The righteous are saved in humility. They will be RULED OVER by the saints. So then God is weeding out ALL who tear down the saints...both now and in eternity.

We see the pride here in those who hate any idea that they are not among God's special ones. And that pride gets them disqualified from entering the kingdom. And to make things worse...these same people try to STOP others from entering in.

All these things are on display here. A righteous man doesn't know he is righteous. A humble man doesn't know he is humble.

But a hypocrite doesn't know he/she is a hypocrite. So people expose their true selves on how they HANDLE the walk in holiness. Are they able to esteem the saints as higher than themselves? Not usually.

If you ever watched the movie "Chariots of fire" (highly recommended) the man being portrayed Eric Liddel was a very simple man. His favourite bible verses were the sermon on the mount. He never experienced the higher walk...but his faith witness changed a LOT of people. His legacy and testimony affect people even today. That is because he was a DOER of the word.

The problem with the pretenders here is that they are neither high walkers nor doers. Neither holy nor righteous. They are just religious speculators looking to be justified in their sins. My exhortation for all believers is to embrace humility and the fear of the Lord...and LEARN righteousness. It could be that we are spared on the day of the Lord's wrath.

 

[amigo de christo]

I don't know what you mean by fighting it from the inside....? We are told not to be unequally yoked with unbelievers but come out from among them and be separate. And concerning Mystery Babylon it is the same instruction....."come out of her my people lest ye receive of her plagues".......touch not the unclean thing (her mixture). At some point a true believer needs to get out of there and renounce it, whether any others come with them or not. Same with any protestant churches that have become apostate...we need to walk away from anything that claims to be of God but has fallen away or never was of Him in the first place. That doesn't mean we can't try to reach individual souls........but not by being unequally yoked with them.

Catholicism can't be "fixed".......it needs to be exposed and torn down period. "If the foundations are destroyed, what can the righteous do?" (Psa 11:3) The righteous can do nothing in such cases, it can't be fixed...........just leave it. It's like a house in the old testament that has gone mouldy....can't live there or clean it out...it needs to be burned down. Which the Lord will do eventually, when the time comes to judge her, just like He did with apostate Jerusalem and Temple.

a lie , a false gopsel , catholicsim or any other ism cannot BE FIXED . for darkness and light cannot co exist .
The darkness must be fled . You are correct dear sister .
Let us who are of Christ GO outside that temple . You cannot fix darkness . YOU can only expose it .

 

[Lizbeth]

People who have believed another gospel have also received another spirit that condemns anything (and passionately warns them) that doesn't line up with their religious conditioning. For these...it is about them.

They include themselves in their exclusivity. And they exclude those who know the Lord....they are seen as a threat.

I was raised a Catholic, had the sacraments, and even went on a charismatic Ultreya weekend in high school. After receiving Jesus for real in my late twenties, I never quite knew how to think of Catholicism, other than recognizing there was no life there and to avoid it. Later on I did understand it to be a kind of hybrid, but maybe somehow partly salvageable in a way..? But thanks to the Lord I understand now and am unequivocal in how to think of it. IT IS UNEQUIVOCALLY NOT OF GOD, period. It is ruled by ANOTHER spirit, not God. MIXTURE IS THE UNCLEAN THING WE ARE NOT TO TOUCH BUT COME OUT OF. MIXTURE IS NOT OF GOD, PERIOD, END OF STORY.

 

[amigo de christo]

I was raised a Catholic, had the sacraments, and even went on a charismatic Ultreya weekend in high school. After receiving Jesus for real in my late twenties, I never quite knew how to think of Catholicism, other than recognizing there was no life there and to avoid it. Later on I did understand it to be a kind of hybrid, but maybe somehow partly salvageable in a way..? But thanks to the Lord I understand now and am unequivocal in how to think of it. IT IS UNEQUIVOCALLY NOT OF GOD, period. It is ruled by ANOTHER spirit, not God. MIXTURE IS THE UNCLEAN THING WE ARE NOT TO TOUCH BUT COME OUT OF. MIXTURE IS NOT OF GOD, PERIOD, END OF STORY

END OF STORY A MEN SISTER .
and its not the only dangerous one either . The same entity that first merge CHURCH N STATE
has not left . ITS TAKEN OVER EVEN THE PROTESTANT REALM .
And the all inclusive god that men like epi and others do serve , ITS MERGING A WORLD STATE CHURCH and MINDSET .
OH its of antoher spirit all right . AND its peace will always be earthern , just like everything else
it will BLEND THE TWO . which actaully CANNOT BE DONE .
FOR they will serve ONLY THE EARTHEN but will beleive IT TO BE THE HEAVENLY and OF GOD .
THE MIXTURE . THAT IS OF SATAN and has always been of him .
FOr notice the very first LIE h e told eve .
IT was NOT THAT GOD DOES NOT ExiST
BUT rather A LIE that did what , USED GOD , HIS nAME and said FOR HE DOES KNOW
that in the day ye eat of it ye shall become as gods .
SATAN IS KING of the mixture . HE always uses truths with a lie . HE always has .
GOD however SPEAKS ONLY TRUTH , and his KINGDOM is not earthen bUT HEAVENLY .
they are all being set up .
And for more info on how this can be seen , OPEN BIBLE and let us see HOW often
even the jews THOUGHT they beleived and followed GOD and yet
did not . What did GOD tell them . ENOUGH with this middle of the fence stuff
CHOOSE H IM or baal BUT NOT boTH . NOT TH E MIX sister .
NOT the blending of the two . LUKE and warm .
The mixture IS of satan and always has b een . And what does it feed , THE F LESH .

 

[bdavidc]

Says you!

I cannot imagine a more obvious paraphrase of progressive structure than when our Lord said in Luke 12:47-49 (Voice)
47 Now if a servant who is given clear instructions by his master doesn’t follow those instructions but instead is complacent and apathetic, then he will be punished severely. 48 But if a servant doesn’t know what his master expects and behaves badly, then he will receive a lighter punishment. If you are given much, much will be required of you. If much is entrusted to you, much will be expected of you.

And also Luke 16:10
10 “One who is faithful in a very little is also faithful in much, and one who is dishonest in a very little is also dishonest in much.

To whom much is given much is expected implies progressive structure. We are tested a little and if we pass, the test becomes more significant. Our Lord himself was tested for 40 days, culminating in being tempted by directly Satan, presumably the most difficult part of the 40-day challenge. You deny this? If so, then what is the limits of applying these verses?

The Bible says it, not me. Neither passage teaches the “progressive structure” you are claiming.

Luke 12:47–48 is about being held accountable for what we know and the responsibility we have been given. Jesus says, “For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required.” The servant who knew his lord’s will received a greater punishment than the one who did not know it. But where does the passage say God starts us with a small test and then gives us harder ones each time we pass? It does not.

Luke 16:10 says, “He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much.” Christ is talking about faithfulness and stewardship. He never says, “Pass a small test and God will give you a harder one.” That progression is being added to the passage.

The same thing happens with your statement about Christ’s temptation. Yes, Scripture says Jesus was tempted by the devil. But calling the final temptation “presumably the most difficult part” is speculation. The Bible does not say that. Luke 4:2 says Jesus was “forty days tempted of the devil.” It records particular temptations, but it never lays out a system of spiritual tests that become increasingly difficult.

There is nothing wrong with making an inference if we admit that it is an inference. The problem begins when that inference is presented as doctrine that Scripture itself teaches. “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good” (1 Thessalonians 5:21). If this “progressive structure” is biblical doctrine, show me the passage that actually teaches it. These verses do not.

 

[bdavidc]

Nonsense. The Bible wrote all the verses I referenced. Nothing was invented. You're just denying the repeated message of Scripture.

Yes, the Bible wrote every verse you quoted. What the Bible did not write is the doctrinal structure you are building out of them. That is the distinction you keep avoiding.

Quoting biblical verses does not automatically make the conclusion drawn from them biblical. Proverbs 30:6 warns, “Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.”

If Scripture repeatedly teaches this “progressive structure,” then show where Scripture actually says that God gives a small test, waits to see whether we pass it, and then gives progressively harder tests. Not verses about greater accountability. Not verses about faithfulness with stewardship. Show the text that teaches the structure itself.

Otherwise, the verses are Scripture, but the structure is yours.