Who goes back with Jesus in the pre-tribulation rapture?

[rwb]

You are dealing with amil
That is a totally different Bible.

Nothing at all will make sense in an end time discussion.
The more read their grand canyon leaps, the more I am convinced they are only here to mess with us.

Totally different Bible??? I learned the doctrines I espouse mostly through the KJV of Sacred Scripture. Not sure what Bible your doctrine is derived from because you often make assumptions and give your opinions without proving from any translation of the Bible what you believe is FROM the Word of God.

 

[CrowCross]

Isaiah 14:12-17 continues, “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning [Heb. hêylêl bênor shachar shining one (or the morning star) son of the dawn]! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?”

The angels of God are described as the morning stars in ” Job 38:7. They are shown to have been there at “the foundations of the earth.” So, the devil being described as hêylêl bênor shachar or the shining one, or the morning star, son of the dawn, makes sense.

• The king of Babylon never fell from heaven. No human did. To argue that is ridiculous. Only Satan and his angels are depicted as experiencing that in Scripture (Isaiah 14:12 and Ezekiel 28:16). Several New Testament passages also apply that to the devil (Luke 10:17, 2 Peter 2:4, Jude 1:6 and Revelation 12:1-4).
• The king of Babylon was definitely not "Lucifer," “the shining one,” “the bright one,” “the light-bearer,” “the morning star,” or “son of the dawn.” These are terms set aside for the invisible angelic realm. The supernatural realm is often likened to the celestial realm. This can only refer to an angel.
• Why would God attribute such high, bright, lofty, supernatural and celestial attributes to a wicked rebellious heathen king who was full of darkness from his birth to his grave? Only Satan could fulfil this, as at one stage he did shine in the heavenly court before he fell.
• The king of Babylon never tried to “ascend into heaven,” to dethrone God or “exalt his throne above the stars of God.”
• Satan is the one who is the god of this world. He is the one with a global kingdom. He is the one who ruled the nations with his deceit before Christ came. He alone “didst weaken the nations.” Only he “made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof”? The king of Babylon only ruled over Babylon. Hello!

The king of Babylon is rebuked for his pride and rebellion at the beginning. Elect angels are not fallen angels.

Ezekiel 28:12-19: “Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.”

Ezekiel was not just speaking to the king of Tyrus but to the spiritual power that controlled him and worked through him – Satan. The king of Tyrus was simply a wicked instrument that the devil used. By addressing the human king and his spiritual ruler simultaneously, Ezekiel shows how Satan's pride and fall are mirrored in the king's actions and ultimate destruction.

• First of all, the king of Tyrus was still alive here when this was being spoken.
• Second, the king of Tyrus was definitely not in the Garden of Eden. That would have made him thousands of years old, which is ridiculous.
• Thirdly, the king of Tyrus was not an anointed guardian cherub. He was a human being. Cherubs are angelic creatures.
• Fifthly, the king of Tyrus was not born blameless or sinless. He was born with original sin. He was born depraved.
• Sixthly, the king of Tyrus was not in the mountain of God, a reference to the direct presence of God in heaven, neither was he on Mount Horeb, the earthly mountain of God with Moses.
• Seventhly, there is nowhere the king of Tyrus corrupted the wisdom he had been given by God in the splendour of God’s presence. He was always an out and out heathen king.
• Eighthly, the king of Tyrus was not cast out of God’s holy mount to the ground.

We all know: Satan works through the wicked to accomplish his purposes. These 2 kings were simply surrogates who Satan used. They were his evil ambassadors. Satan worked through them. He spoke through them. He is still doing the same today.

Jude 1:6: “And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.”

2 Peter 2:4 closely correlates: “God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell [Gr. tartaroo], and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.”

This is talking about angels that sinned at the beginning and therefore fell. Adam and Eve were not angels. They are not held in "everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.” God redeemed them. He made an atoning sacrifice for them in the Garden and gave them a righteous covering. Who else is this speaking about than Satan and his demons?

Revelation 12:1-4 shows Satan and his devils being eternally evicted from heaven. Interestingly the demonic angels are depicted as “stars.” It reads: “And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon ... And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth.”

In Revelation 12:4, 1/3 of the angels sided with Satan in his rebellion. They sided with him when he fell, and are part of the kingdom of darkness.

Once again the bible says the Cherub..."lucifer" ....walked in the garden of Eden in an un-fallen state.
This means Satan fell after day 6.
The angels were created prior to the creation of the world as you said...and according to Job watch Jesus create.

 

[CrowCross]

You are dealing with amil
That is a totally different Bible.

Nothing at all will make sense in an end time discussion.
The more read their grand canyon leaps, the more I am convinced they are only here to mess with us.

AMills don't look at the entirety of scripture. They take biblical things such as what Revelation describes as symbolic.

 

[CrowCross]

Nowhere in Scripture can you prove Satan was created good and became the evil spirit called Satan.

long sigh...the bible describes Satan as walking in the garden in an un-fallen state. This proved Satan was "good" at one time.
The bible even tells us speaking about Satan....You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, till unrighteousness was found in you.

So, YES, RWB scripture tells us Satan was once a white hat.

Do you not believe the bible?

 

[CrowCross]

I gave you the biblical meaning according to the Hebrew language.

Subtil - H6175

עָרוּם ʻârûwm, aw-room' - ; cunning (usually in a bad sense):—crafty, prudent, subtil

Derived from H6191 Strong's Hebrew Concordance -

עָרַם ʻâram, aw-ram' - a primitive root; properly, to be (or make) bare; but used only in the derivative sense (through the idea perhaps of smoothness) to be cunning (usually in a bad sense):—× very, beware, take crafty (counsel), be prudent, deal subtilly.

Genesis 3:1 (KJVSL) Now the serpent נָחָשׁ was הָיָה more subtil עָרוּם than any beast חַי of the field שָׂדֶה which the LORD יְהֹוָה God אֱלֹהִים had made עָשָׂה. And he said אָמַר unto the woman אִשָּׁה, Yea אַף, hath God אֱלֹהִים said אָמַר, Ye shall not eat אָכַל of every tree עֵץ of the garden גַּן?

The implication is the serpent was made by God more cunning and crafty in a bad sense.

As your definition says....(usually in a bad sense)

Why would God create an evil serpent on day 6 then say creation was very good????????????????

 

[CrowCross]

Yes, he most certainly does! That's why it is so important to be born again of the Spirit of Christ.

But according to the amil crowd Satan is locked up and can't.

Which is it? Did you find a loop hole?

 

[David in NJ]

Where does the Bible write that believers shall rule with Christ in glorified eternal bodies for one thousand literal years?

Where is your supposed future millennial kingdom taught in the gospels? The first principle of evidence is: he who alleges most prove.

Now when Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, pleading with Him, 6saying, “Lord, my servant is lying at home paralyzed, dreadfully tormented.”

7And Jesus said to him, “I will come and heal him.”

8The centurion answered and said, “Lord, I am not worthy that You should come under my roof. But only speak a word, and my servant will be healed. 9For I also am a man under authority, having soldiers under me. And I say to this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes; and to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”

10When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, “Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel! 11And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” 13Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go your way; and as you have believed, so let it be done for you.” And his servant was healed that same hour.

 

[rwb]

long sigh...the bible describes Satan as walking in the garden in an un-fallen state. This proved Satan was "good" at one time.

Where in the Bible can we read Satan described in an un-fallen state, and that he was once good?

 

[WPM]

Once again the bible says the Cherub..."lucifer" ....walked in the garden of Eden in an un-fallen state.
This means Satan fell after day 6.
The angels were created prior to the creation of the world as you said...and according to Job watch Jesus create.

What Bible are you reading? The Word of God is your greatest enemy.

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

The devil was a liar and a deceiver. He was from when he fell and was thrown out of heaven. That is his nature.

Jesus said in John 8:44: “Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.”

 

[CrowCross]

Where in the Bible can we read Satan described in an un-fallen state, and that he was once good?

Ezekiel 28:15.

Per you have some sort of loop hole to explain it away.

 

[WPM]

Now when Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, pleading with Him, 6saying, “Lord, my servant is lying at home paralyzed, dreadfully tormented.”

7And Jesus said to him, “I will come and heal him.”

8The centurion answered and said, “Lord, I am not worthy that You should come under my roof. But only speak a word, and my servant will be healed. 9For I also am a man under authority, having soldiers under me. And I say to this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes; and to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”

10When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, “Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel! 11And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” 13Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go your way; and as you have believed, so let it be done for you.” And his servant was healed that same hour.

LOL. What has this to do with some imaginary future millennium? Nothing! Where is the millennium mentioned here? Nowhere! You know that. That's why you have been so sheepish and trying to avoid this question.

 

[CrowCross]

What Bible are you reading? The Word of God is your greatest enemy.

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

The devil was a liar and a deceiver. He was from when he fell and was thrown out of heaven. That is his nature.

Jesus said in John 8:44: “Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.”

There's a lot said in Gen 3:1....

Did God create a snake in heaven then on day 6 throw it out of heaven?

 

[WPM]

But according to the amil crowd Satan is locked up and can't.

Which is it? Did you find a loop hole?

1. Do you believe Satan and his minions are physical beings?
2. Is the dragon in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical dragon?
3. Is the serpent in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical serpent?
4. Do you believe Satan literally has 7 heads and 7 necks?
5. Is the key mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal door key?
6. Is the chain mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal chain?
7. Is the prison mentioned in Revelation 20:7 a literal brick prison?
8. Do you believe demons need to be detained in a literal physical prison with literal metal chains in order to be restrained?
9. Can a prisoner in a prison have great wrath while in chains?
10. Does imprisonment mean immobility?
11. Does it mean a prisoner cannot do harm?
12. Can a dog on a chain walk or roam about?
13. Can a prisoner in a prison walk or roam about?
14. Can a prisoner deceive others in prison?
15. Does a prisoner have the ability to kill, steal, destroy, rape and embezzle in prison?
16. When the Bible talk about the wicked being bound in chains do you believe these are literal physical chains?
17. When the Bible talk about the wicked being imprisoned do you believe they are all in literal physical brick prisons?

 

[rwb]

As your definition says....(usually in a bad sense)

Why would God create an evil serpent on day 6 then say creation was very good????????????????

Because even sin/evil is used by God to accomplish His good purpose. What man thinks of as bad, God uses to bring about good. It is through experiencing both good and evil, mankind might come to know the goodness of God's mercy and grace given to those who are born again.

Genesis 50:20 (KJV) But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

 

[WPM]

There's a lot said in Gen 3:1....

Did God create a snake in heaven then on day 6 throw it out of heaven?

The descriptions "serpent" and "dragon" are symbolic descriptions of the character of Satan, just like lion and the lamb are symbolic descriptions of the Lord Jesus Christ. The enlightened mind will know that.

 

[WPM]

As your definition says....(usually in a bad sense)

Why would God create an evil serpent on day 6 then say creation was very good????????????????

Because He was talking about natural creation. Hello!

 

[WPM]

As your definition says....(usually in a bad sense)

Why would God create an evil serpent on day 6 then say creation was very good????????????????

I notice that your modus operandi is to avoid every single biblical argument that others present and just keep repeating your error. It seems like your blinkered. It seems like you do not want to know the truth. You just want to hold onto what you've been wrongly taught. Sad! There is no reasoning with such an indoctrinated mind. It is a waste of time.

 

[amigo de christo]

I think God is going to expose the falseness that has crept into the church over the years.

And just like he used paul and other true men to do so , HE still uses men to warn today .
Its why i warn . It is not for my health its out of dire necessity for the sakes of the peoples that i warn .
The Holy Spirit is at work within the sheep .

 

[WPM]

Currently the nations have been deceived and are battling.
We have Iran for example deceived and fighting with the intent to bring back the 12th Imam.
We have the Kabalist...talmud Jews...fighting to rebuild the temple.
We have the christian Zionist fighting and thinking they can make the rapture occur.
Rev 13 is all about deception and war and precedes Rev 20 in the biblical timeline.

The so called non-literal binding of Satan for a 1000 years hasn't occurred yet as what is described in the book of Revelations hasn't happened yet.

According to scripture Jesus comes back then starts the literal 1,000 year reign.
Why is Rev 20 not placed before Rev 6?

That's not quite right...if Satan was bound in Gen 3 as his punishment Evil would still exist as that is what the prodigy of Adams new nature is.
In the millennial reign when Satan is bound man can only blame their evil nature on themselves.

In the opening of this post I showed some of the flaws with that concept. In previous post I've shown other flaws.

No, the bible places the millennial reign after those that event.

You are overlooking some key symbolic variables. We are viewing a symbolic dragon being threw into a prison in Rev 20. The dragon symbolically represents Satan. But it is a figurative portrayal. The prison is a spiritual condition rather than a geographical location. What is more, this occurs in the intra-Advent period until Satan is released at the end for his final assault upon the saints.

 

[David in NJ]

I think God is going to expose the falseness that has crept into the church over the years.

In fact, GOD is doing that Today = "If you hear His Voice"

GOD Says, pre-trib rapture is a lie!

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn,
and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.