What is the purpose of Grace?

[shepherdsword]

It was patronizing and unnecessary to say what he said. The message that came across loud and clear was that if you need to have the scripture posted you must be "lesser than". Not to mention sounding like it is too menial and boring to "have" to post scripture for the benefit of anyone. And wanting to know the scriptures that someone is basing their post or comments is not a sign that someone is engaged in mechanical/carnal thinking.

I post more scriptures in my posts than most do. Certainly more than you. This can be easily proven. Also, by mechanical I simply meant that some have a very limited comprehension of scripture that eliminates any allegorical meaning. They are bound and confined to the "peshat" because they are unable to grasp the "remez"

Peshat (פְּשָׁט) – The Simple or Literal Meaning
This is the plain, straightforward meaning of the text — what it says at face value, based on grammar, context, and syntax.
Example: When the Bible says, “And God said, ‘Let there be light,’” the peshat is that God created light.

Remez (רֶמֶז) – The Symbolic or Allegorical Meaning
This level looks for hints, allusions, or deeper symbolic meanings beneath the surface text.
Example: Hagar could mean Mt Sinai and not just Ismael's mother

 

[shepherdsword]

It was patronizing and unnecessary to say what he said. The message that came across loud and clear was that if you need to have the scripture posted you must be "lesser than". Not to mention sounding like it is too menial and boring to "have" to post scripture for the benefit of anyone. And wanting to know the scriptures that someone is basing their post or comments is not a sign that someone is engaged in mechanical/carnal thinking.

I post more scriptures in my posts than most do. Certainly more than you. This can be easily proven. Also, by mechanical I simply meant that some have a very limited comprehension of scripture that eliminates any allegorical meaning. They are bound and confined to the "peshat" because they are unable to grasp the "remez"

Peshat (פְּשָׁט) – The Simple or Literal Meaning
This is the plain, straightforward meaning of the text — what it says at face value, based on grammar, context, and syntax.
Example: When the Bible says, “And God said, ‘Let there be light,’” the peshat is that God created light.

Remez (רֶמֶז) – The Hint or Allegorical Meaning
This level looks for hints, allusions, or deeper symbolic meanings beneath the surface text.
Example: The “light” could symbolize divine wisdom or revelation, not just physical light.

 

[marks]

Example: The “light” could symbolize divine wisdom or revelation, not just physical light.

Light can symbolize all sorts of things. I always ask, where is the Scriptural authority? People say all kinds of things. I want to know what God says.

You speak of someone who is unable to comprehend the allegories in Scripture, but what if those "allegories" aren't what God was saying? For instance, Sarah and Hagar show an allegory, and we can know this as a fact, the Bible says so.

Are we saying that God created "divine wisdom" when He created light? I think He already possessed divine wisdom, myself. Are some "unable to comprehend" some "deeper meaning"? Or are some rejecting that "deeper meaning" as something that is being imposed on the text?

There are two sides to this view, you need to understand that. I've seen many many "allegories" manufactured from the text to "prove" erroneous ideas. It doesn't mean I can't understand it (some particular one), I do, and I reject it.

They are bound and confined to the "peshat" because they are unable to grasp the "remez"

This is just a way to express your opinion except stated as fact, in a demeaning manner.

Is there any reason to think that others have not looked for all those things you do (hints, symbols, etc), and simply have another perspective on it?

Much love!

 

[shepherdsword]

Light can symbolize all sorts of things. I always ask, where is the Scriptural authority? People say all kinds of things. I want to know what God says.

You speak of someone who is unable to comprehend the allegories in Scripture, but what if those "allegories" aren't what God was saying? For instance, Sarah and Hagar show an allegory, and we can know this as a fact, the Bible says so.

Are we saying that God created "divine wisdom" when He created light? I think He already possessed divine wisdom, myself. Are some "unable to comprehend" some "deeper meaning"? Or are some rejecting that "deeper meaning" as something that is being imposed on the text?

There are two sides to this view, you need to understand that. I've seen many many "allegories" manufactured from the text to "prove" erroneous ideas. It doesn't mean I can't understand it (some particular one), I do, and I reject it.


This is just a way to express your opinion except stated as fact, in a demeaning manner.

Is there any reason to think that others have not looked for all those things you do (hints, symbols, etc), and simply have another perspective on it?

Much love!

You need to study the scriptures. "Light" is used in an allegorical sense all over the bible. Here is just one example out of dozens:

Eph 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

 

[Wick Stick]

What is the purpose of Grace?​

I find the question a little odd.

Grace is an attribute of God. It doesn't really require a purpose. Rather, Scripture gives it as the reason that God saves anyone.

 

[Wick Stick]

Light can symbolize all sorts of things. I always ask, where is the Scriptural authority? People say all kinds of things. I want to know what God says.

You speak of someone who is unable to comprehend the allegories in Scripture, but what if those "allegories" aren't what God was saying? For instance, Sarah and Hagar show an allegory, and we can know this as a fact, the Bible says so.

Are we saying that God created "divine wisdom" when He created light? I think He already possessed divine wisdom, myself. Are some "unable to comprehend" some "deeper meaning"? Or are some rejecting that "deeper meaning" as something that is being imposed on the text?

There are two sides to this view, you need to understand that. I've seen many many "allegories" manufactured from the text to "prove" erroneous ideas. It doesn't mean I can't understand it (some particular one), I do, and I reject it.

I think that in some instances, we are meant to take meaning from Scripture that wasn't intended by the original author, and apply it in our lives. This is valid when it comes from being inspired.

What we are not meant to do, is to take our own private understanding, and use it to abolish the original meaning of the text, as if the two could not co-exist.

Generally, if one is applying Scripture to themself, they are using it correctly. And the converse is true as well - if one is using Scripture to beat others over the head... that's probably incorrect.

 

[marks]

I think that in some instances, we are meant to take meaning from Scripture that wasn't intended by the original author, and apply it in our lives. This is valid when it comes from being inspired.

What we are not meant to do, is to take our own private understanding, and use it to abolish the original meaning of the text, as if the two could not co-exist.

Generally, if one is applying Scripture to themself, they are using it correctly. And the converse is true as well - if one is using Scripture to beat others over the head... that's probably incorrect.

I very much agree with you. And when God lifts a passage from it's context to give a particular word to me, that's personal, and doesn't really have a place for others, unless it's simply to testify that God is alive, and speaks to us.

And like you say, in no wise to abolish the original meaning. God meant that too!

Much love!

 

[marks]

You need to study the scriptures.

We all do, brother! And we all need to understand what we study.

Yes, light is used metaphorically in many places. Is the creation story an allegory? Many would say yes. I would say it's the history of when God created this creation, including the creation of "light".

Not choosing to identify a word or a story as being a metaphor or an allegory is not the same as recognizing the possibility of doing so. Like someone mentioned above, some use the identification of metaphors or allegories as means to negate the Scriptures. Just because someone says "allegory" or "metaphor" doesn't mean that it is so.

Hagar and Sarah are to me the best example of this, as the Bible itself tells us they show an allegory between new and old covenants. The history of them is at once a true history, and an allegory, defined by God in the Bible. That is the authority, the Bible says so.

We can see all sorts of things in Scripture, the real question is, what does the Bible itself say?

Much love!

 

[shepherdsword]

This is just a way to express your opinion except stated as fact, in a demeaning manner.

Labeling a superficial and shallow interpretation as mechanical is not demeaning.

Is there any reason to think that others have not looked for all those things you do (hints, symbols, etc), and simply have another perspective on it?

Much love!

I have seen some fine examples on how you misunderstand allegories. Lets take this for example:

I'd like to suggest to you that Adam was more than representing humanity, that when God created Adam, He created all who would ever live in Adam. That God created Humanity as a single thing.

We tend to think of humanity as being a collection of individuals who self-replicate, producing more individuals.

The Bible tells us, for instance, that Levi paid tithes to Melchesidek "being in the loins of Abraham". Not that Levi would be someone born in some future time, but that Levi was already in Abraham, and humanity is not a collection of individuals, but a single thing, unfolding over the centuries.

Your statement above goes way beyond what scripture actually states. The author was using Levi "in a certain" sense as an allegory. Using your non scriptural extrapolation one could claim the Lord Jesus also paid tithes since he was also in Abrahams loins. In fact, the entire analogy was just to show that the Melchizedek priesthood is superior to the Levitical.

 

[shepherdsword]

We all do, brother! And we all need to understand what we study.

Yes, light is used metaphorically in many places. Is the creation story an allegory? Many would say yes. I would say it's the history of when God created this creation, including the creation of "light".

Not choosing to identify a word or a story as being a metaphor or an allegory is not the same as recognizing the possibility of doing so. Like someone mentioned above, some use the identification of metaphors or allegories as means to negate the Scriptures. Just because someone says "allegory" or "metaphor" doesn't mean that it is so.

Hagar and Sarah are to me the best example of this, as the Bible itself tells us they show an allegory between new and old covenants. The history of them is at once a true history, and an allegory, defined by God in the Bible. That is the authority, the Bible says so.

We can see all sorts of things in Scripture, the real question is, what does the Bible itself say?

Much love!

What are you arguing about. You are chasing your tail and and shooting arrows into strawmen. Who is drafting an allegory that contradicts scripture?

 

[marks]

What are you arguing about. You are chasing your tail and and shooting arrows into strawmen. Who is drafting an allegory that contradicts scripture?

Some do.

No matter. I've said what I've wanted, I see how you receive it.

Much love!

 

[Episkopos]

I very much agree with you. And when God lifts a passage from it's context to give a particular word to me, that's personal, and doesn't really have a place for others, unless it's simply to testify that God is alive, and speaks to us.

And like you say, in no wise to abolish the original meaning. God meant that too!

Much love!

This is all private interpretation. The only thing that God would say to you...to save your soul... is..

and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

But that would go against the kind of god that you think justifies you in all your antics...

The truth would set you free.

Consider that.... a little pain to get to the truth. It's just ego, so let it go.

 

[Wick Stick]

Is the creation story an allegory? Many would say yes. I would say it's the history of when God created this creation, including the creation of "light".

Which creation story?

Genesis 1 is not an allegory - it's actually about the creation. But it is a poem, and so contains some language that isn't 100% literal.

Genesis 2-4 is a mythology by genre, so there are many things there with symbolic meaning. We know this because Ezekiel gives us the meanings for several of the symbols. But it isn't an allegory by a strict definition, because the base of the myth is still rooted in historical happenings. It's a euhemeric mythology.

 

[shepherdsword]

Some do.

No matter. I've said what I've wanted, I see how you receive it.

Much love!

I see it as a slanderous accusation.

 

[Episkopos]

I see it as a slanderous accusation.

It can't be seen as slander unless it's directed at Mark. At this point Lizbeth will probably get a personal download from somewhere that contradicts this and somehow justifies whatever she comes up with next.

 

[shepherdsword]

Genesis 2-4 is a mythology by genre, so there are many things there with symbolic meaning. We know this because Ezekiel gives us the meanings for several of the symbols. But it isn't an allegory by a strict definition, because the base of the myth is still rooted in historical happenings. It's a euhemeric mythology.

You have been reading too much Joseph Campbell's "The power of myth"

 

[Wick Stick]

You have been reading too much Joseph Campbell's "The power of myth"

Never even heard of it.

I've been reading Ezekiel:

31:3 Behold, the Assyrian [was] a cedar in Lebanon with fair branches, and with a shadowing shroud, and of an high stature; and his top was among the thick boughs.
4 The waters made him great, the deep set him up on high with her rivers running round about his plants, and sent out her little rivers unto all the trees of the field.
5 Therefore his height was exalted above all the trees of the field, and his boughs were multiplied, and his branches became long because of the multitude of waters, when he shot forth.
6 All the fowls of heaven made their nests in his boughs, and under his branches did all the beasts of the field bring forth their young, and under his shadow dwelt all great nations.
7 Thus was he fair in his greatness, in the length of his branches: for his root was by great waters.
8 The cedars in the garden of God could not hide him: the fir trees were not like his boughs, and the chesnut trees were not like his branches; nor any tree in the garden of God was like unto him in his beauty.
9 I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that [were] in the garden of God, envied him.

 

[marks]

I see it as a slanderous accusation.

Perhaps you might quote the part where I accused you?

Much love!

 

[marks]

It can't be seen as slander unless it's directed at Mark. At this point Lizbeth will probably get a personal download from somewhere that contradicts this and somehow justifies whatever she comes up with next.

I think people see things in all sorts of ways, but I do understand your point here.

Just remember . . . you words reveal you. What's in your heart.

 

[marks]

It's just ego, so let it go.