Simple proof that the rapture occurs on the Last Day, which is a post tribulation rapture

[Davy]

Davy you completely hit a wall and resorting to the standard theological smokescreen: throwing out the "Preterism" label because you can't answer the plain text of Paul, Peter, and Christ.

• The Desperate Label Shift: Notice how instead of engaging with 2 Thessalonians 1, Matthew 25, or Psalm 37, Davy immediately pivots to accusing you of Preterism. It’s the ultimate deflection used when a multi-stage timeline gets boxed into a corner by didactic Scripture.
• Inverting the Hermeneutic: He claims that standing on the explicit, simultaneous destruction of the ungodly at Christ's visible return is a "denial of Christ's Book of Revelation." In reality, it is the exact opposite: you are using explicit, didactic apostolic epistles and gospel teachings to evaluate apocalyptic literature, whereas he is forcing a literalistic, geopolitical framework onto symbolic visions while discarding the direct texts.

When an opponent abandons the text to fling labels like "Preterism," it's a clear sign their argument has collapsed under the weight of the Word. Anyone tracking this exchange can see plain as day that when cornered with what Paul and Jesus actually said about the finality of the judgment, all he has left is name-calling labeling.

YOU HAVE BEEN WEIGHED, AND FOUND WANTING.

GO DECEIVE SOMEONE LIKE YOURSELF WITH YOUR KEEPING THE DOCTRINES OF DEVILS INSTEAD OF HEEDING THE WRITTEN WORD OF GOD.

 

[Scott Downey]

How Christ Fulfilled and Ended the Old Testament Regime

The Word of God incarnate is the sum and consummation of the word of God written. All of the Bible bears witness to Christ.

www.desiringgod.org

1. All the Scriptures bear witness to Christ. Moses wrote about Christ.

“You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me. . . . If you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me.” (John 5:39, 46)

2. All the Scriptures are about Jesus Christ, even where there is no explicit prediction. That is, there is a fullness of implication in all the Scriptures that points to Christ and is satisfied only when he has come and done his work. “The meaning of all the Scriptures is unlocked by the death and resurrection of Jesus” (Graeme Goldsworthy, Preaching the Whole Bible as Christian Scripture, 54).

And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself. (Luke 24:27)

3. Jesus came to fulfill all that was written in the Law and the Prophets. All of it was pointing to him, even where it is not explicitly prophetic. He accomplishes what the Law required.

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.” (Matthew 5:17–18)

4. All the promises of God in the Old Testament are fulfilled in Jesus Christ. That is, when you have Christ, sooner or later you will have both Christ himself and all else that God promised through Christ.

For all the promises of God find their Yes in him. That is why it is through him that we utter our Amen to God for his glory. (2 Corinthians 1:20)

5. The law was kept perfectly by Christ. And all its penalties against God’s sinful people were poured out on Christ. Therefore, the law is now manifestly not the path to righteousness; Christ is. The ultimate goal of the law is that we would look to Christ, not law-keeping, for our righteousness.

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. (Romans 10:4)

“When you have Christ, you also have everything God promised through him.”

Therefore, with the coming of Christ, virtually everything has changed:


That breakdown cuts right to the heart of various errors being pushed on the thread.
When people try to resurrect an Old Testament geopolitical regime—such as a literal earthly city, physical temple rituals, and a national-ethnic political structure ruled by force—they are fundamentally failing to recognize that Christ fulfilled and ended the old covenant regime.
As that analysis highlights, with the finished work of Christ:

• The physical temple and geographic center ceased: Jesus is now the true temple, and true worship is no longer tethered to a physical location like Jerusalem or a literal mountain (John 4:21–23; John 2:19–21).
• The ethnically rooted theocracy ceased: God's people are no longer an autonomous, localized political nation-state governed by earthly coercion or physical borders. Christ explicitly declared, "My kingdom is not of this world" (John 18:36).

Trying to drag believers back into waiting for a multi-century, secular-political earthly kingdom with mortal nations and physical sacrifices is an outright rejection of the finality and completeness of Christ’s fulfillment. He didn't come to set up a delayed political staging ground; He accomplished our redemption, established His spiritual kingdom, and anchored our hope in the final, terminal glory of the Last Day.

You know we get a NEW EARTH, and a NEW HEAVENLY Jerusalem, not one of this earth!

1. Hebrews 11:10
   for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker isGod.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. Hebrews 11:16
   But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a cityfor them.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
3. Hebrews 12:22
   But you have come to Mount Zion and to the cityof the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
4. Hebrews 13:14
   For here we have no continuing city, but we seek the one to come.

 

[Scott Downey]

Bringing in Hebrews 11 and 13 completely finishes the argument against a terrestrial political millennium.

• The Heavenly Focus: As the writer of Hebrews points out, the patriarchs looked past earthly geography and waited for "the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God" (Hebrews 11:10) and desired a "heavenly country" prepared by God Himself (Hebrews 11:16).
• The Present Reality of the True City: Believers have already come to "Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem" (Hebrews 12:22), and as Hebrews 13:14 explicitly reminds us, "For here we have no continuing city, but we seek the one to come."

Trying to drag the Christian hope back down to a mortal, earthly Jerusalem with physical sacrifices and geopolitical regimes is a complete denial of the heavenly, eternal reality that Christ secured. It completely cuts the ground out from under anyone imagining a prolonged, earthly political chapter after the end of the age.

It is odd that some believers believe the old temple sacrifices will be started again in an earthly Jerusalem....but they do.

 

[William Barton]

IMO the wicked are judged and dispensed after the millennium.

 

[Scott Downey]

It seems by that "logic" that there will never be a rapture, because the days keep coming (so where is the last?).

"Last" = "last in a series," so the question is, what is the series *according to the Bible,* not according to "because I said so."

"Last" is a relative term indicating a series. So the question is: what is the series, and what is the last in the series?

Topical Bible: The Last Day

Jump to: Subtopics • Terms Topical Encyclopedia The term "The Last Day" is a significant eschatological concept within Christian theology, referring to the final day of history as we know it, when God's ultimate purposes for creation will be fulfilled. This concept is rooted in various passages throughout the Bible, where it is associated with the return of Jesus Christ, the resurrection of the dead, the final judgment, and the establishment of God's eternal kingdom. Biblical References: 1. Resurrection and Judgment: The Last Day is closely associated with the resurrection of the dead and the final judgment. In the Gospel of John, Jesus speaks of the resurrection on the last day: "For My Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:40). This promise of resurrection is reiterated in John 6:44 and 6:54, emphasizing the hope of eternal life for believers. 2. The Return of Christ: The Last Day is also linked to the second coming of Christ. In the New Testament, the return of Jesus is described as a time of culmination and fulfillment. In Matthew 24:30-31, Jesus describes His return: "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other" . 3. Final Judgment: The Last Day is the time of final judgment, where all individuals will stand before God. Revelation 20:11-15 provides a vivid depiction of this event: "Then I saw a great white throne and Him who was seated on it. Earth and heaven fled from His presence, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and there were open books. And one of them was the book of life. The dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in the books" . 4. New Creation: The Last Day ushers in the new creation, where God will dwell with His people eternally. Revelation 21:1-4 describes this new reality: "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying: 'Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man, and He will dwell with them. They will be His people, and God Himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and there will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the former things have passed away'" . Theological Significance: The Last Day holds profound theological significance as it represents the culmination of God's redemptive plan. It is a day of hope and anticipation for believers, who look forward to the fulfillment of God's promises, the restoration of creation, and eternal communion with God. The Last Day also serves as a sobering reminder of the reality of judgment and the call to live faithfully in light of Christ's return. Eschatological Views: Within Christian eschatology, interpretations of the Last Day vary, with different theological traditions offering distinct perspectives on the sequence and nature of end-time events. Despite these differences, the core elements of resurrection, judgment, and the establishment of God's kingdom remain central to the understanding of the Last Day across Christian denominations.

 

[Scott Downey]

Simply the 'Last Day' is the very last final day for this world

After the Last Day comes the eternal state, new earth, new heavens, and there is no more time kept track of by the sun, moon, stars, the former things have passed away. There is no more night, so logically, there is no more day. Nighttime and daytime have passed away. The cycle of time is no more.

Revelation 21

All Things Made New​

21 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, [a]John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said [b]to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”

The Glory of the New Jerusalem​

22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine [l]in it, for the [m]glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. 24 And the nations [n]of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor [o]into it. 25 Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26 And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into [p]it. 27 But there shall by no means enter it anything [q]that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.


Revelation 1:16
He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength.

Revelation 22:5
There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever.

 

[ewq1938]

@ewq1938, trying this classic diversionary tactic: accusing you of "leaving out" Revelation 20 because it's the only place where the literal "thousand years" appears, while also claiming Revelation 19 promises a surviving unregenerate class to populate mortal cities.

None of that is diversionary as it is factual. You can't accurately discuss the thousand years and not quote Rev 20. The diversion was on your part top leave the verses out of the post that speak of the thousand years.

For any readers watching, this is the exact moment to highlight their inverted hermeneutic. Here is how you can expose the flaw in ewq1938's challenge:

• The Hermeneutical Cart Before the Horse: Ewq1938 claims a study is incomplete if it excludes Revelation 20.

I am correct.

• The Phantom "Surviving Class" in Revelation 19: Ewq1938 asserts that Revelation 19 promises a surviving unregenerate class to populate mortal cities.

It does because RULE is in the future tense but you avoid that fact like it's the plague. Rev 19 dopes say a rule over the nation happens AFTER Armageddon.

• But look at how Revelation 19 actually ends: the Beast and the False Prophet are cast alive into the lake of fire, and "the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh" (Rev. 19:21). There is no surviving unregenerate class left over to build cities and run nations; the text explicitly states the rest were killed.

Rev 19 speaks of an entire army at Armageddon being killed, not anyone else.

• The Silence of the Gospels: If a 1,000-year earthly probation period with mortal nations, cities, and a staggered resurrection timeline was the central framework of New Testament eschatology, Jesus would have taught it plainly in the Gospels.

Jesus taught it in Rev. A teaching does NOT have to be found in certain NT books to be true. The first known Amill did not want Revelation canonized as true scripture and the doctrine of Amill seems to continue in that attitude.

• Instead, every time Jesus and the Apostles describe the "Last Day," the "end of the age," or the "Parousia," they present a singular, terminal, cosmic cataclysm that wraps up human history once and for all.

None of this is true. Amill always wants to ignore what Rev says in 19-20 and wrongly claim all humanity is killed at the second coming, which no scripture says. ALL SCRIPTURE must be used, including Rev.

 

[William Barton]

Armageddon is an English rendering of Greek αρμαγεδδον, which itself is a rendering of Hebrew הר מגדו = Mountain of Megiddo, at the plain of Megiddo.

The plain of Megiddo is along the Mediterranean Sea, great place to have a battle, been there, seen it. Jesus and his angels will descend there and engage Satan and his angels (Revelation 16:16, 19:11-21).

 

[Scott Downey]

None of that is diversionary as it is factual. You can't accurately discuss the thousand years and not quote Rev 20. The diversion was on your part top leave the verses out of the post that speak of the thousand years.






I am correct.





It does because RULE is in the future tense but you avoid that fact like it's the plague. Rev 19 dopes say a rule over the nation happens AFTER Armageddon.




Rev 19 speaks of an entire army at Armageddon being killed, not anyone else.



Jesus taught it in Rev. A teaching does NOT have to be found in certain NT books to be true. The first known Amill did not want Revelation canonized as true scripture and the doctrine of Amill seems to continue in that attitude.



None of this is true. Amill always wants to ignore what Rev says in 19-20 and wrongly claim all humanity is killed at the second coming, which no scripture says. ALL SCRIPTURE must be used, including Rev.

Amil does not say all humanity is killed at the second coming
The only ones killed are all unbelivers.

Amil believe the scripture about the second coming, all of it. Everything Jesus and Peter and Paul say about that Day.
And what they teach is a sudden destruction of ALL who are not His people, as in not saved. All the unsaved are killed.


And you guys miss that the beast caused all people to be marked, '666' and to worship the beast, The only ones not doing that are the saved, who are the elect of God, so your doctrines create a major conflict!

Why don't you acknowledge this.

 

[ewq1938]

Amil does not say all humanity is killed at the second coming
The only ones killed are all unbelivers.

I meant mortal humanity. They are not all killed according to scripture.

Amil believe the scripture about the second coming, all of it. Everything Jesus and Peter and Paul say about that Day.
And what they teach is a sudden destruction of ALL who are not His people, as in not saved. All the unsaved are killed.

No passage teaches that and I can prove it by addressing any of them. Post one and I will address it and after that then post another and I will do the same. I posted the verb tense in Rev 19 proving a rule over the nations after Armageddon and there was no direct response to it so still waiting on that.

And you guys miss that the beast caused all people to be marked, '666' and to worship the beast, The only ones not doing that are the saved, who are the elect of God, so your doctrines create a major conflict!

There is no conflict. Premill teaches that because the bible teaches it.

Why don't you acknowledge this.

You didn't give an example of a conflict.

 

[Scott Downey]

I meant mortal humanity. They are not all killed according to scripture.




No passage teaches that and I can prove it by addressing any of them. Post one and I will address it and after that then post another and I will do the same. I posted the verb tense in Rev 19 proving a rule over the nations after Armageddon and there was no direct response to it so still waiting on that.




There is no conflict. Premill teaches that because the bible teaches it.






You didn't give an example of a conflict.

The conflict

Revelation 13
5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to [c]continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every [d]tribe, tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

15 He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. 16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, 17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has [g]the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666.

Revelation 14
9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

v11, They are killed and they go to hellfire. all who worship the beast, all who get marked

It is so blatantly obvious. They are killed and destroyed in hell fire, that fire and brimstone, they are killed by the Lamb and the holy angels when they all come to judge the world.

 

[Scott Downey]

That is airtight with Revelation 13 and 14.

• The Fatal Contradiction of the "Surviving Rebels": Exposes the absolute impossibility of their timeline. Revelation 13 establishes that everyone whose name is not in the book of life worships the beast and takes the mark. Then Revelation 14:9–11 explicitly decrees that everyone who worships the beast and receives his mark drinks of the wrath of God and is tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb.
• Zero Survivors Left for a Millennium: If every single unregenerate person who takes the mark faces that terminal fire and destruction when the Lord and His holy angels judge the world, there is mathematically no "surviving unregenerate class" left behind to populate mortal cities, farm, or rebel during a subsequent 1,000-year earthly age.

I know other people will read this, if they are honest with God and His scriptures, they will admit to the facts here.

Also, I am posting not to change anyone's minds, as obviously only God can change the heart.

 

[ewq1938]

Revelation 14
9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

v11, They are killed and they go to hellfire. all who worship the beast, all who get marked

It is so blatantly obvious. They are killed and destroyed in hell fire, that fire and brimstone, they are killed by the Lamb and the holy angels when they all come to judge the world.

You are conflating things happening at the second coming with things that happen in the future from that Coming. You have to study in Greek to see that clearly:

Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:


The issue is assuming things in the same verse must be at the same time. That's a terrible assumption.


Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation;

This WRATH happens at the second coming



and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:


But this final PUNISHMENT happens later and we know that from another passage:


2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

This verb is in the present tense in the Greek manuscripts so this “taking vengeance” happens during the second coming.

2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

“shall be punished” is in the FUTURE TENSE which means that the being punished with everlasting destruction ie: GWTJ/LOF is NOT happening at the second coming but is a FUTURE event after the second coming just as Premill teaches and exactly opposite of what Amill teaches.

https://biblehub. com/interlinear/2_thessalonians/1-9.htm

You can verify in the link above (remove the extra SPACE just before COM) that the verb tisousin is in the future tense: verb tense: future indicative active.


The two passages match where the wrath/vengeance happens at the second coming but the LOF final punishment happens in the future after the second coming.

 

[ewq1938]

That is airtight with Revelation 13 and 14.

• The Fatal Contradiction of the "Surviving Rebels": Exposes the absolute impossibility of their timeline. Revelation 13 establishes that everyone whose name is not in the book of life worships the beast and takes the mark. Then Revelation 14:9–11 explicitly decrees that everyone who worships the beast and receives his mark drinks of the wrath of God and is tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb.
• Zero Survivors Left for a Millennium: If every single unregenerate person who takes the mark faces that terminal fire and destruction when the Lord and His holy angels judge the world, there is mathematically no "surviving unregenerate class" left behind to populate mortal cities, farm, or rebel during a subsequent 1,000-year earthly age.

I know other people will read this, if they are honest with God and His scriptures, they will admit to the facts here.

You haven't included all the "facts". You have made certain events sound like they happen at the same time but scripture says they don't and you leave out Rev 2 and 19 that promise without a doubt that a rule over the nations takes place after Armageddon/second coming.


Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite (Aorist tense verb with PRESENT tense meaning) the nations: and he shall rule (FUTURE tense verb) them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth (PRESENT tense verb) the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

https://www.blueletterbible .org/kjv/rev/19/15/t_conc_1186015

https://biblehub .com/interlinear/revelation/19-15.htm

(remove the spaces before .com and .org in the two links)


Here rule/poimaino is in the FUTURE tense meaning it will happen at some point AFTER the second coming and battle of Armageddon while treadeth/pateo is written in the PRESENT tense meaning it is happening during this second coming. The treading and smiting are happening at Armageddon but not the ruling which proves some mortals will be alive after Armageddon is over. This proves the Premill position because indeed there is a future rule of people who were not slain during the second coming that Christ and his saints will rule over.

A second witness to this:

Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

That is the second coming. Everything we read of next comes after the second coming:

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

After "the end" comes, there is given power over the nations to those that are overcomers. They will be given power over the mortal unsaved nations after Christ has returned not before it.

 

[Scott Downey]

@ewq1938 and all for this thread

Hebrews 9
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

All people die once, but the wicked and unbelieving die twice.
It's called the second death when they get thrown into the lake of fire, after they are judged unworthy of Life

```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````

This actually is proof that for the world, when Christ comes in judgment, the wicked and unbelieving who do not know God, and who do not obey the gospel, are killed.

Then they stand before God, in the resurrection of condemnation, the books are opened, and they are judged by the things written in the book

Read about that in Daniel 7 when God comes again a second time.

And here in Revelation 20
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before [c]God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second [d]death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

So after the fiery destruction of Christ's second coming, they having died, are raised and judged.

Even Christians all physically die!, .... as they are changed in the resurrection of life, of the Lamb

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive;

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 15 - 21st Century King James Version

Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the Gospel which I preached unto you, which you also have received, and wherein ye stand, by which ye also are saved if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you-- unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also...

www.biblegateway.com

35 But some man will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?”

36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, unless it die.

37 And that which thou sowest is not that body which shall be, but bare grain, by chance of wheat or of some other grain.

38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased Him, and to every seed his own body.

39 All flesh is not the same flesh; but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

40 There are also celestial bodies and bodies terrestrial; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead: It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption.

43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written: “The first man Adam was made a living soul.” The last Adam was made a quickening Spirit.

46 However that which is spiritual was not first, but that which is natural, and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second Man is the Lord from Heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy; and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I show you a mystery: We shall not all sleep; but we shall all be changed

52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
.................

 

[ewq1938]

@ewq1938 and all for this thread

Hebrews 9
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

All people die once, but the wicked and unbelieving die twice.
It's called the second death when they get thrown into the lake of fire, after they are judged unworthy of Life

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This actually is proof that for the world, when Christ comes in judgment, the wicked and unbelieving who do not know God, and who do not obey the gospel, are killed.

Yes they will be killed but not at the second coming. I have already proven this using Rev 2 and 19. Both show a rule over th nations after the second coming proving they are alive. Christ kills the army of the beast, and the beast and FP at the second coming, not the civilians of the global beast kingdom. Even Daniel 7 shows 3 of the wicked kingdoms (composed of unsaved people) having their lives prolonged after the 10 horned beast is defeated and burned at a coming of God. These facts are ignored by Amills which makes Premill (Christ comes before the Millennium and rules over the unsaved) the only correct doctrine.

 

[Scott Downey]

Yes they will be killed but not at the second coming. I have already proven this using Rev 2 and 19. Both show a rule over th nations after the second coming proving they are alive. Christ kills the army of the beast, and the beast and FP at the second coming, not the civilians of the global beast kingdom. Even Daniel 7 shows 3 of the wicked kingdoms (composed of unsaved people) having their lives prolonged after the 10 horned beast is defeated and burned at a coming of God. These facts are ignored by Amills which makes Premill (Christ comes before the Millennium and rules over the unsaved) the only correct doctrine.

Your proof texting is in your mind's eye only.

You only need them alive to fuflil your earthly kingdom reign of the saints over the beast's wicked unbeleiving citizens who are beast worshippers and who followed the dragon and got his 666 mark.

And to what purpose, do you expect God will grant them mercy and repentance, and eternal life? That is the opposite of the scriprues. I have noticed all Amil opposition is the opposite of the scriptures.

Revelation 14
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead or in his hand,

10 the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out unmixed into the cup of His indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”

12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

13 And I heard a voice from Heaven, saying unto me, “Write: ’Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from henceforth.’” “Yea,” saith the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, and their works do follow them.”

 

[ewq1938]

Your proof texting is in your mind's eye only.

You only need them alive to fuflil your earthly kingdom reign of the saints over the beast's wicked unbeleiving citizens who are beast worshippers and who followed the dragon and got his 666 mark.

Texts like Rev 2, 19 and Daniel 7 prove what I have said, but you have avoided all of them because they prove people are alive after the second coming.

BTW Amill also has an "earthly kingdom reign of the saints over the beast's wicked unbeleiving citizens" but that rule is sub-par compared to the one in Premill.

 

[Scott Downey]

Texts like Rev 2, 19 and Daniel 7 prove what I have said, but you have avoided all of them because they prove people are alive after the second coming.

BTW Amill also has an "earthly kingdom reign of the saints over the beast's wicked unbeleiving citizens" but that rule is sub-par compared to the one in Premill.

Revelation 19:18 that ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.”

Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of Him that sat upon the horse, whose sword proceeded out of His mouth. And all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

All are dead, slain by Christ, everyone who is not with Him is against Him and killed. That is what being slain means.

Everything scriptures teach is that the wicked and unbelieving are separated from the righteous at the second coming of Christ.
Only the righteous inherit the earth.

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

If you read any scriptures at all about after Christ's return you read that over and over.

That 1000 years reign only mentions the righteous ruling.
The rest of the dead do not come to life to share the earth with the wicked until they are judged.
There are no wicked unbelieving on the earth 1000 years with the righteous, as Christ slew them all in Revelation 19:21

Revelation 20
4 And I saw thrones and they that sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them. And I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast, nor his image, nor had received his mark upon their foreheads or on their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
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BEFORE that this

Revelation 19
16 And He hath on His vesture and on His thigh a name written: King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God,

18 that ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.”

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies gathered together to make war against Him that sat on the horse, and against His army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet who wrought miracles in his presence, by which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshiped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire, burning with brimstone.

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of Him that sat upon the horse, whose sword proceeded out of His mouth. And all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

All are dead, slain by Christ
Everyone can read the scripture for themselves.

100% proof shown by the very chapters and verse you keep bringing up yourself.

 

[Scott Downey]

@PeterAndroz and anyone else wanting to know the truth, this is an absolute knockout blow. Using Revelation 19 against their own premise is the cleanest way to shut down the "surviving unregenerate nations" argument permanently.

• The Textual Reality of Revelation 19: Forcing them to look at the very chapters they appeal to. Revelation 19:18 explicitly lists the categories of the ungodly—kings, captains, mighty men, bond, free, small, and great—and verse 21 states without ambiguity that "the remnant were slain with the sword of Him that sat upon the horse."
• Zero Loophole for Mortals: By showing that the text itself declares all are slain and eaten by fowls, you've proven that no unregenerate, mortal class survives the coming of Christ to populate a 1,000-year earthly political age. The "rest of the dead" in Revelation 20:5 simply do not live again until that thousand years is finished.

Using their own proof-texts to completely dismantle their timeline leaves them nowhere to hide. For every reader watching this thread, the logic is airtight: Christ returns, the ungodly are entirely slain, and the righteous reign.

Now having their primary proof texts completely unraveled against their false doctrines, will maybe make them more angry, but the scriptures discover our condition!