Simple proof that the rapture occurs on the Last Day, which is a post tribulation rapture

[Davy]

Davy you completely hit a wall and resorting to the standard theological smokescreen: throwing out the "Preterism" label because you can't answer the plain text of Paul, Peter, and Christ.

• The Desperate Label Shift: Notice how instead of engaging with 2 Thessalonians 1, Matthew 25, or Psalm 37, Davy immediately pivots to accusing you of Preterism. It’s the ultimate deflection used when a multi-stage timeline gets boxed into a corner by didactic Scripture.
• Inverting the Hermeneutic: He claims that standing on the explicit, simultaneous destruction of the ungodly at Christ's visible return is a "denial of Christ's Book of Revelation." In reality, it is the exact opposite: you are using explicit, didactic apostolic epistles and gospel teachings to evaluate apocalyptic literature, whereas he is forcing a literalistic, geopolitical framework onto symbolic visions while discarding the direct texts.

When an opponent abandons the text to fling labels like "Preterism," it's a clear sign their argument has collapsed under the weight of the Word. Anyone tracking this exchange can see plain as day that when cornered with what Paul and Jesus actually said about the finality of the judgment, all he has left is name-calling labeling.

YOU HAVE BEEN WEIGHED, AND FOUND WANTING.

GO DECEIVE SOMEONE LIKE YOURSELF WITH YOUR KEEPING THE DOCTRINES OF DEVILS INSTEAD OF HEEDING THE WRITTEN WORD OF GOD.

 

[Scott Downey]

How Christ Fulfilled and Ended the Old Testament Regime

The Word of God incarnate is the sum and consummation of the word of God written. All of the Bible bears witness to Christ.

www.desiringgod.org

1. All the Scriptures bear witness to Christ. Moses wrote about Christ.

“You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me. . . . If you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me.” (John 5:39, 46)

2. All the Scriptures are about Jesus Christ, even where there is no explicit prediction. That is, there is a fullness of implication in all the Scriptures that points to Christ and is satisfied only when he has come and done his work. “The meaning of all the Scriptures is unlocked by the death and resurrection of Jesus” (Graeme Goldsworthy, Preaching the Whole Bible as Christian Scripture, 54).

And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself. (Luke 24:27)

3. Jesus came to fulfill all that was written in the Law and the Prophets. All of it was pointing to him, even where it is not explicitly prophetic. He accomplishes what the Law required.

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.” (Matthew 5:17–18)

4. All the promises of God in the Old Testament are fulfilled in Jesus Christ. That is, when you have Christ, sooner or later you will have both Christ himself and all else that God promised through Christ.

For all the promises of God find their Yes in him. That is why it is through him that we utter our Amen to God for his glory. (2 Corinthians 1:20)

5. The law was kept perfectly by Christ. And all its penalties against God’s sinful people were poured out on Christ. Therefore, the law is now manifestly not the path to righteousness; Christ is. The ultimate goal of the law is that we would look to Christ, not law-keeping, for our righteousness.

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. (Romans 10:4)

“When you have Christ, you also have everything God promised through him.”

Therefore, with the coming of Christ, virtually everything has changed:


That breakdown cuts right to the heart of various errors being pushed on the thread.
When people try to resurrect an Old Testament geopolitical regime—such as a literal earthly city, physical temple rituals, and a national-ethnic political structure ruled by force—they are fundamentally failing to recognize that Christ fulfilled and ended the old covenant regime.
As that analysis highlights, with the finished work of Christ:

• The physical temple and geographic center ceased: Jesus is now the true temple, and true worship is no longer tethered to a physical location like Jerusalem or a literal mountain (John 4:21–23; John 2:19–21).
• The ethnically rooted theocracy ceased: God's people are no longer an autonomous, localized political nation-state governed by earthly coercion or physical borders. Christ explicitly declared, "My kingdom is not of this world" (John 18:36).

Trying to drag believers back into waiting for a multi-century, secular-political earthly kingdom with mortal nations and physical sacrifices is an outright rejection of the finality and completeness of Christ’s fulfillment. He didn't come to set up a delayed political staging ground; He accomplished our redemption, established His spiritual kingdom, and anchored our hope in the final, terminal glory of the Last Day.

You know we get a NEW EARTH, and a NEW HEAVENLY Jerusalem, not one of this earth!

1. Hebrews 11:10
   for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker isGod.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. Hebrews 11:16
   But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a cityfor them.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
3. Hebrews 12:22
   But you have come to Mount Zion and to the cityof the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
4. Hebrews 13:14
   For here we have no continuing city, but we seek the one to come.

 

[Scott Downey]

Bringing in Hebrews 11 and 13 completely finishes the argument against a terrestrial political millennium.

• The Heavenly Focus: As the writer of Hebrews points out, the patriarchs looked past earthly geography and waited for "the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God" (Hebrews 11:10) and desired a "heavenly country" prepared by God Himself (Hebrews 11:16).
• The Present Reality of the True City: Believers have already come to "Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem" (Hebrews 12:22), and as Hebrews 13:14 explicitly reminds us, "For here we have no continuing city, but we seek the one to come."

Trying to drag the Christian hope back down to a mortal, earthly Jerusalem with physical sacrifices and geopolitical regimes is a complete denial of the heavenly, eternal reality that Christ secured. It completely cuts the ground out from under anyone imagining a prolonged, earthly political chapter after the end of the age.

It is odd that some believers believe the old temple sacrifices will be started again in an earthly Jerusalem....but they do.

 

[William Barton]

That LAST day when Christ returns, the wicked unbelieving are killed - judged unworthy and destroyed, the people of God are raised up to be with Him forever with all living and dead transformed- resurrected to face judgment. A lot is happening, it is a seriously busy LAST Day

• John 6:39
  This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
  In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
• John 6:40
  And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
  In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
• John 6:44
  No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
  In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
• John 6:54
  Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:24
Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

John 12:48
He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him— the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.

1 Thessalonians 4

The Comfort of Christ’s Coming​

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen [b]asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who [c]sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [d]asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

So therefore 1 Thess 4-rapture occurs on the Last Day, not before.

Rapture,resurrection, judgment, are all on the Last Day
Scripturally and logically it is a lock.

It seems by that "logic" that there will never be a rapture, because the days keep coming (so where is the last?).

"Last" = "last in a series," so the question is, what is the series *according to the Bible,* not according to "because I said so."

"Last" is a relative term indicating a series. So the question is: what is the series, and what is the last in the series?

 

[Scott Downey]

It seems by that "logic" that there will never be a rapture, because the days keep coming (so where is the last?).

"Last" = "last in a series," so the question is, what is the series *according to the Bible,* not according to "because I said so."

"Last" is a relative term indicating a series. So the question is: what is the series, and what is the last in the series?

Topical Bible: The Last Day

Jump to: Subtopics • Terms Topical Encyclopedia The term "The Last Day" is a significant eschatological concept within Christian theology, referring to the final day of history as we know it, when God's ultimate purposes for creation will be fulfilled. This concept is rooted in various passages throughout the Bible, where it is associated with the return of Jesus Christ, the resurrection of the dead, the final judgment, and the establishment of God's eternal kingdom. Biblical References: 1. Resurrection and Judgment: The Last Day is closely associated with the resurrection of the dead and the final judgment. In the Gospel of John, Jesus speaks of the resurrection on the last day: "For My Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:40). This promise of resurrection is reiterated in John 6:44 and 6:54, emphasizing the hope of eternal life for believers. 2. The Return of Christ: The Last Day is also linked to the second coming of Christ. In the New Testament, the return of Jesus is described as a time of culmination and fulfillment. In Matthew 24:30-31, Jesus describes His return: "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other" . 3. Final Judgment: The Last Day is the time of final judgment, where all individuals will stand before God. Revelation 20:11-15 provides a vivid depiction of this event: "Then I saw a great white throne and Him who was seated on it. Earth and heaven fled from His presence, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and there were open books. And one of them was the book of life. The dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in the books" . 4. New Creation: The Last Day ushers in the new creation, where God will dwell with His people eternally. Revelation 21:1-4 describes this new reality: "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying: 'Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man, and He will dwell with them. They will be His people, and God Himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and there will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the former things have passed away'" . Theological Significance: The Last Day holds profound theological significance as it represents the culmination of God's redemptive plan. It is a day of hope and anticipation for believers, who look forward to the fulfillment of God's promises, the restoration of creation, and eternal communion with God. The Last Day also serves as a sobering reminder of the reality of judgment and the call to live faithfully in light of Christ's return. Eschatological Views: Within Christian eschatology, interpretations of the Last Day vary, with different theological traditions offering distinct perspectives on the sequence and nature of end-time events. Despite these differences, the core elements of resurrection, judgment, and the establishment of God's kingdom remain central to the understanding of the Last Day across Christian denominations.

 

[Scott Downey]

Simply the 'Last Day' is the very last final day for this world

After the Last Day comes the eternal state, new earth, new heavens, and there is no more time kept track of by the sun, moon, stars, the former things have passed away. There is no more night, so logically, there is no more day. Nighttime and daytime have passed away. The cycle of time is no more.

Revelation 21

All Things Made New​

21 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, [a]John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said [b]to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”

The Glory of the New Jerusalem​

22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine [l]in it, for the [m]glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. 24 And the nations [n]of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor [o]into it. 25 Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26 And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into [p]it. 27 But there shall by no means enter it anything [q]that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.


Revelation 1:16
He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength.

Revelation 22:5
There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever.

 

[ewq1938]

@ewq1938, trying this classic diversionary tactic: accusing you of "leaving out" Revelation 20 because it's the only place where the literal "thousand years" appears, while also claiming Revelation 19 promises a surviving unregenerate class to populate mortal cities.

None of that is diversionary as it is factual. You can't accurately discuss the thousand years and not quote Rev 20. The diversion was on your part top leave the verses out of the post that speak of the thousand years.

For any readers watching, this is the exact moment to highlight their inverted hermeneutic. Here is how you can expose the flaw in ewq1938's challenge:

• The Hermeneutical Cart Before the Horse: Ewq1938 claims a study is incomplete if it excludes Revelation 20.

I am correct.

• The Phantom "Surviving Class" in Revelation 19: Ewq1938 asserts that Revelation 19 promises a surviving unregenerate class to populate mortal cities.

It does because RULE is in the future tense but you avoid that fact like it's the plague. Rev 19 dopes say a rule over the nation happens AFTER Armageddon.

• But look at how Revelation 19 actually ends: the Beast and the False Prophet are cast alive into the lake of fire, and "the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh" (Rev. 19:21). There is no surviving unregenerate class left over to build cities and run nations; the text explicitly states the rest were killed.

Rev 19 speaks of an entire army at Armageddon being killed, not anyone else.

• The Silence of the Gospels: If a 1,000-year earthly probation period with mortal nations, cities, and a staggered resurrection timeline was the central framework of New Testament eschatology, Jesus would have taught it plainly in the Gospels.

Jesus taught it in Rev. A teaching does NOT have to be found in certain NT books to be true. The first known Amill did not want Revelation canonized as true scripture and the doctrine of Amill seems to continue in that attitude.

• Instead, every time Jesus and the Apostles describe the "Last Day," the "end of the age," or the "Parousia," they present a singular, terminal, cosmic cataclysm that wraps up human history once and for all.

None of this is true. Amill always wants to ignore what Rev says in 19-20 and wrongly claim all humanity is killed at the second coming, which no scripture says. ALL SCRIPTURE must be used, including Rev.