What is the purpose of Grace?

[Lambano]

Never heard of Randy Shank.

"Robert", not "Randy".

* Shanks for the memories.

 

[Wick Stick]

"Robert", not "Randy".

* Shanks for the memories.

Haven't heard of him either. My reading interests skew towards the ancient. I know the early church fathers pretty well, but I don't know many modern authors. The ones I do know are the ones who deal in the ancient... Heiser, Coogan.

 

[Lambano]

Haven't heard of him either. My reading interests skew towards the ancient. I know the early church fathers pretty well, but I don't know many modern authors. The ones I do know are the ones who deal in the ancient... Heiser, Coogan.

Shank is known for his defense of the Arminian side in the eternal war with the followers of John Calvin.

 

[Wick Stick]

Shank is known for his defense of the Arminian side in the eternal war with the followers of John Calvin.

My understanding of Reformed theology is that it's built on Augustine. I don't like/agree with Augustine very often.

 

[Lambano]

My understanding of Reformed theology is that it's built on Augustine. I don't like/agree with Augustine very often.

A couple of sources have asserted that he came to his anti-Pelagian doctrine from contemplating the disobedient behavior of his own genitalia, so there's that to like.

 

[Wick Stick]

A couple of sources have asserted that he came to his anti-Pelagian doctrine from contemplating the disobedient behavior of his own genitalia, so there's that to like.

::ew::

 

[Lambano]

A couple of sources have asserted that he came to his anti-Pelagian doctrine from contemplating the disobedient behavior of his own genitalia, so there's that to like.

Some philosophers contemplate their own navels; Augustine went deeper.

 

[shepherdsword]

"Robert", not "Randy".

* Shanks for the memories.

Yeah, been a few decades since I read it. He has Wick's election as corporate action pretty well detailed.

 

[Episkopos]

The gospel is not that innocent people eventually fall and then progress toward some higher spiritual state. The gospel is that fallen sinners need Christ, and that Christ died for our sins and rose again.

It is both. Have you not heard of the word of God being a DOUBLE edged sword? Of course, you won't understand that. But more than one thing can be true at the same time. If you are still teachable, you could unlearn being unlearned...

 

[Lizbeth]

Don't fluff over and ignore the enabling power aspect as therein lies the key to true new birth and transformation. That goes for @amigo de christo and his cheerleader @Marvelloustime as well. Maybe she can create a scripture slogan plaque for that.

As long as nobody is separating "the power" from the God and Christ whose power it is. What does anyone have that they didn't receive....from HIM? For HIS glory, true? And imputed righteousness is because of His grace too (that is what Romans 4 explicitly teaches), as well as power.

And just to say, I don't think snarky comments are evidence of transformation or even of being ready for it.

 

[shepherdsword]

And just to say, I don't think snarky comments are evidence of transformation or even of being ready for it.

pot/kettle...then stop getting snarky. All I said was to not gloss over the enabling aspect of God's power. As for transformation? You have no clue where I came from or where I am at. So stop judging another's walk. You judged and rebuked epi for mentioning where people were at and you turn around and do the same thing. Your superficial observations have little to do with what's in the heart. You know less than you think you do.

 

[Lizbeth]

pot/kettle...then stop getting snarky. All I said was to not gloss over the enabling aspect of God's power. As for transformation? You have no clue where I came from or where I am at. So stop judging another's walk. You judged and rebuked epi for mentioning where people were at and you turn around and do the same thing. Your superficial observations have little to do with what's in the heart. You know less than you think you do.

I was referring especially to your comment with regard to marvelloustime.

How do you read Romans 4? Imputed righteousness being due to God's grace.

 

[Lizbeth]

I suggest you stop trying to overthink things with the many verses you post out of context. You need to see the bigger picture.

Where is the rest of my post? The Romans 4 scriptures.

I'm not overthinking them at all.....just accepting them for what they actually and clearly do say. But please feel free to discuss them and tell us what context you are speaking of.

 

[Lizbeth]

Who said anything about a "grace force"? That is a discombobulated misrepresentation of what I said. The grace of God empowers us to walk as he walked. However, I am sure you will wrest and twist this statement into a caricature invented by your carnal mind.

Much Love!

There is a real danger of disconnecting the power from He who is the source of it, in a way that robs Him of His glory and causes men to be lifted up in pride.

 

[shepherdsword]

I was referring especially to your comment with regard to marvelloustime.

I was just hoping to see one of those plaques that were actually salient to the conversation. Or better yet, how about actually having a conversation?

How do you read Romans 4? Imputed righteousness being due to God's grace.

if God does not impute His righteousness to me then I have no hope. I was not a righteous man before Jesus found me.

 

[Lizbeth]

Are you saying grace does NOT empower us? Here you go, pulling out your "it's ok to sin because I'm human" card like it's a Mastercard or Visa, based on the word "ought" . John writes these things so we may not sin but you seem to think the "OUGHT" in verse 6 gives us a pass. The word in Greek is "ofilo" and means to OWE or be under obligation. So based on that...what do you think?

View attachment 89794

So yes, the grace and power are there but we are too proud or carnal to be able to receive it all.

It's the difference between religious flesh which was of the Law and the new way of the spirit........John, like the other NT writers, was writing in spirit. Nobody is saying it is ok to sin, but that the desire to walk holy needs to come from willing hearts, not under compulsion. Religious flesh brings one under compulsion....the Holy Spirit doesn't work that way, at least not under the new covenant.

I don't believe the topic of holiness is something that should be imposed on people.

 

[Lizbeth]

You have no clue where I came from or where I am at. So stop judging another's walk.

Uh huh. Funny you have never told Epi that with regard to how he talks to people routinely.

 

[Lizbeth]

if God does not impute His righteousness to me then I have no hope. I was not a righteous man before Jesus found me.

So you don't agree with Episkopos regarding imputed righteousness? I wonder you have never refuted him on that......it is very important foundational doctrine.

 

[shepherdsword]

So you don't agree with Episkopos regarding imputed righteousness? I wonder you have never refuted him on that......it is very important foundational doctrine.

I agree that it is GOD who imputes the righteousness and not we ourselves.

Ps 32:2 Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

The problem with some is that they are FULL of guile and claim God's righteousness for themselves

I also agree that many who think they have arrived at the Kingdom have a form of the Laodicean spirit. "I am rich and have need of nothing" but in reality they are blind wretched and naked. I don't agree with everything Epi says but I think his warnings need to be considered. Do you think you are all God would have you to be? Are you open for correction? Can God use even a totally lost person to bring it to you? How about another follower of Christ? How about even one you judge not to be?

 

[Episkopos]

I was referring especially to your comment with regard to marvelloustime.

How do you read Romans 4? Imputed righteousness being due to God's grace.

Imputed righteousness has nothing to do with God's grace. What we can do is not based on grace. It is based on obedience and faith in what God says. Grace is based on what God can do through a man.

Some people don't realize there is a difference between the limitations of a man, and what a man can do through Christ.