Two Witnesses - A Biblical Perspective

[Earburner]

Since this event is still in our distant future, and I will not see it unfold, determining who or what entity the two witnesses are, has no bearing on what my relationship with God should look like for this present time.

What John is telling us that in the distant future, there will be two witnesses who will be killed by the beast and then raised up again after a number of days and are then call to ascend up into heaven.

I understand and believe that this will happen and in doing so I am believing in the word of God.

Anything else is irrelevant for me at this time.

Shalom

Because it is irrelevant to you, I leave you in the peace of our Lord Jesus, brother.

 

[TribulationSigns]

You sound just like the Pharisees who derided Jesus.

In the NT scriptures, there are 51 scriptures about John the Baptist, but you don't hear a peep from church-ianity about how important his own sacrificial work was in establishng who Jesus is, and the need for repentance. King Herod didn't like that idea of repentance, so he beheaded him.

Call my understanding of who Zech 3:8-10, 4:11-14 is talking about, of what you will.
If you are more inclined to listen to the Holy Spirit, and not the wisdom of men in church-ianity, you will receive His teaching also. It's all about who is teaching you from within, and not from without. 1 Cor. ch. 2.

Wow. Now you're resorting to calling me a Pharisee instead of actually proving your position from Scripture. How exactly do I “sound like the Pharisees” simply because I am asking you to compare Scripture with Scripture and prove your interpretation from God's Word?

The Pharisees' problem was not that they carefully compared Scripture with Scripture. Jesus rebuked them because they elevated their traditions and false interpretations above the truth of God's Word (Mark 7:7–13). Ironically, I am asking you to do the opposite: put aside assumptions and demonstrate your claim from Scripture.

Nobody is denying the importance of John the Baptist. John was the forerunner of Christ, preached repentance, testified of Christ, and was ultimately killed by Herod. But none of that proves that John and Jesus are the "Two Witnesses of Revelation 11" or the "two olive trees of Zechariah 4." You keep describing John's importance without establishing the identification we are actually debating. Funny.

And saying, “If you listen to the Holy Spirit, you'll understand what I understand,” still proves nothing. Anyone can claim divine confirmation for his own interpretation. The Holy Spirit inspired Scripture, so what He teaches will agree with Scripture and can be tested by Scripture.

So once again, instead of calling me a Pharisee or blaming “church-ianity,” simply show from Scripture that Zechariah's two olive trees and Revelation's Two Witnesses are Jesus Christ and John the Baptist.

You still haven't done it. You have asserted it repeatedly, but assertion is not biblical proof.

Selah!

 

[Earburner]

More importantly, you are completely sidestepping the inspired interpretation given to us in Revelation itself, so listen carefully for once:

Zechariah 4:14: “These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.”

Revelation 11:4: “These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.”

John deliberately uses the imagery and language of Zechariah 4 when describing the Two Witnesses. That is an actual textual connection. Yet instead of explaining that connection, you simply quote John 5:39 and announce that Zechariah 4:14 is about Jesus and John the Baptist?!

Do you not know that God just spoke to you through His own presentation through me, that you should just simply invite His perspective about His plans, and STOP over ruling His invitations with your own acquired human defense mechanisms.
All of such defenses are manufactured through "the wisdom of men" in the halls of all denominational Bible colleges and Seminaries, aka Pharisaism.

Are you still looking for more proof??
How about this one:
1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you,
and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

So now, I am waiting to see how long it will take the voice of God to penetrate the noise of garbage that you have heaped upon yourself, by learning the Bible through the wisdom of men, aka church-ianity. 1 Cor. ch. 2.

By the way, what is a "preterist", and what is "correct exegesis"? I don't even care!!
For my Bible study, I simply use the KJV only, referencing the Strong's Concordance and the Textus Receptus Greek Text, in association with the Holy Spirit and His guidance to teach me all things. John 14:26

 

[Earburner]

Wow. Now you're resorting to calling me a Pharisee instead of actually proving your position from Scripture. How exactly do I “sound like the Pharisees” simply because I am asking you to compare Scripture with Scripture and prove your interpretation from God's Word?

The Pharisees' problem was not that they carefully compared Scripture with Scripture. Jesus rebuked them because they elevated their traditions and false interpretations above the truth of God's Word (Mark 7:7–13). Ironically, I am asking you to do the opposite: put aside assumptions and demonstrate your claim from Scripture.

Nobody is denying the importance of John the Baptist. John was the forerunner of Christ, preached repentance, testified of Christ, and was ultimately killed by Herod. But none of that proves that John and Jesus are the "Two Witnesses of Revelation 11" or the "two olive trees of Zechariah 4." You keep describing John's importance without establishing the identification we are actually debating. Funny.

And saying, “If you listen to the Holy Spirit, you'll understand what I understand,” still proves nothing. Anyone can claim divine confirmation for his own interpretation. The Holy Spirit inspired Scripture, so what He teaches will agree with Scripture and can be tested by Scripture.

So once again, instead of calling me a Pharisee or blaming “church-ianity,” simply show from Scripture that Zechariah's two olive trees and Revelation's Two Witnesses are Jesus Christ and John the Baptist.

You still haven't done it. You have asserted it repeatedly, but assertion is not biblical proof.

Selah!

In your approach towards me, I am a wild eyed maverick who doesn't use proper exegesis. So if you wield a weapon, so can I.

If Jesus needed to go to Bible college to learn about God, at 12 yrs old He would have signed up for some lessons at the local school of the Pharisees. I wonder why he didn't??

 

[TribulationSigns]

In your approach towards me, I am a wild eyed maverick who doesn't use proper exegesis. So if you wield a weapon, so can I.

If Jesus needed to go to Bible college to learn about God, at 12 yrs old He would have signed up for some lessons at the local school of the Pharisees. I wonder why he didn't??

Childish response. You're arguing against something I never said. I never said you need Bible college, theological training, or the “school of the Pharisees” to understand Scripture. I said you need Scripture to prove your interpretation of Scripture. Big difference. Guess you can't see the difference!

And bringing Jesus into that comparison doesn't help your argument anyway. Jesus didn't need anyone to teach Him who God is—He is God incarnate, the eternal Word made flesh (John 1:1, 14). At twelve years old, He wasn't sitting among the teachers because He needed theological education; they were “astonished at his understanding and answers” (Luke 2:46–47).

I don't care whether an interpretation comes from a Bible college professor, a famous theologian, or a self-described Spirit-taught believer. The same standard applies: Does Scripture support it?

So forget Bible colleges, Pharisees, Darby, Scofield, and “church-ianity” nonsenses. None of them are the issue!

The issue remains remarkably simple: Where does Scripture identify the Two Witnesses as Jesus Christ and John the Baptist? Why can't you answer this question?! Geez!

We can see that you keep finding new ways to avoid that question instead of answering it.

Like I said, you remain refuted no matter how hard you try to avoid it.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Do you not know that God just spoke to you through His own presentation through me, that you should just simply invite His perspective about His plans, and STOP over ruling His invitations with your own acquired human defense mechanisms.
All of such defenses are manufactured through "the wisdom of men" in the halls of all denominational Bible colleges and Seminaries, aka Pharisaism.

Are you still looking for more proof??
How about this one:
1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you,
and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

So now, I am waiting to see how long it will take the voice of God to penetrate the noise of garbage that you have heaped upon yourself, by learning the Bible through the wisdom of men, aka church-ianity. 1 Cor. ch. 2.

By the way, what is a "preterist", and what is "correct exegesis"? I don't even care!!
For my Bible study, I simply use the KJV only, referencing the Strong's Concordance and the Textus Receptus Greek Text, in association with the Holy Spirit and His guidance to teach me all things. John 14:26

Wow... you have now crossed from failing to prove your interpretation into claiming that God Himself is speaking through you, and therefore anyone who challenges your interpretation is resisting the Holy Spirit. That is not exegesis. That is an attempt to make your interpretation immune from biblical examination. LOL!

1 John 2:27 does NOT prove that Jesus and John the Baptist are the Two Witnesses. Not one word in that verse identifies them as such. You have simply quoted another passage about the anointing of believers while completely avoiding the question before you as usual.

And your use of 1 John 2:27 is self-defeating. John says believers “need not that any man teach you,” yet John himself is teaching them through a written epistle! Obviously, he was not forbidding biblical teaching or careful examination of Scripture. He was speaking of the anointing that enables believers to discern and abide in the truth rather than being deceived by false teachers (1 John 2:18–27).

The same problem applies to John 14:26. Jesus spoke those words directly to His disciples concerning the Holy Spirit teaching them and bringing Christ's words to their remembrance. It is not a license for you to say, “My interpretation came from within, therefore God has spoken through me and you must accept it.”

And enough with the “Bible colleges,” “seminaries,” “Pharisaism,” and “church-ianity.” I haven't appealed to any of them. I gave you two passages straight from Scripture:

Zechariah 4:14 — “These are the two anointed ones...”

Revelation 11:4 — “These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks...”

That is Scripture being compared with Scripture. You still have not shown where Scripture identifies those Two Witnesses as Jesus Christ and John the Baptist.

Ironically, you say you don't even care what “correct exegesis” means, humm. Interesting. Well, exegesis simply means drawing the meaning out of the text rather than reading your own meaning into it. That is precisely the problem here.

Use the KJV. Use Strong's. Examine the Textus Receptus. Fine. Yet, none of them says, “The Two Witnesses are Jesus Christ and John the Baptist.” LOL.

So stop claiming that disagreement with you equals disagreement with God. The Holy Spirit inspired the Scriptures, and therefore your interpretation can and should be tested by those Scriptures.

After all these posts, you still have not provided the biblical proof I asked for. You have provided plenty of claims about how you "receive" your interpretation, but virtually nothing demonstrating that your interpretation is actually what Revelation 11 teaches. Sad!

 

[Earburner]

Childish response. You're arguing against something I never said. I never said you need Bible college, theological training, or the “school of the Pharisees” to understand Scripture. I said you need Scripture to prove your interpretation of Scripture. Big difference. Guess you can't see the difference!

And bringing Jesus into that comparison doesn't help your argument anyway. Jesus didn't need anyone to teach Him who God is—He is God incarnate, the eternal Word made flesh (John 1:1, 14). At twelve years old, He wasn't sitting among the teachers because He needed theological education; they were “astonished at his understanding and answers” (Luke 2:46–47).

I don't care whether an interpretation comes from a Bible college professor, a famous theologian, or a self-described Spirit-taught believer. The same standard applies: Does Scripture support it?

So forget Bible colleges, Pharisees, Darby, Scofield, and “church-ianity” nonsenses. None of them are the issue!

The issue remains remarkably simple: Where does Scripture identify the Two Witnesses as Jesus Christ and John the Baptist? Why can't you answer this question?! Geez!

We can see that you keep finding new ways to avoid that question instead of answering it.

Like I said, you remain refuted no matter how hard you try to avoid it.

I have answered it. I KEEP referencing all of 1Cor. ch. 2, but you still CAN'T HEAR IT. All you want to do is quote scripture verbatim. That is only half the answer. The other is that which the Holy Spirit teaches, and not that which is taught by the wisdom of man, which for sure ALWAYS gravitates to the written word, simply because that is all the human mind can do.
It can only read the words, turn the page, read the words, turn the page, and on and on.
I am far from being refuted in the Spirit. You however can only be refuted if you misspell scripture. Nobody will call you wrong, if that is all you do.

 

[Earburner]

Wow... you have now crossed from failing to prove your interpretation into claiming that God Himself is speaking through you, and therefore anyone who challenges your interpretation is resisting the Holy Spirit. That is not exegesis. That is an attempt to make your interpretation immune from biblical examination. LOL!

1 John 2:27 does NOT prove that Jesus and John the Baptist are the Two Witnesses. Not one word in that verse identifies them as such. You have simply quoted another passage about the anointing of believers while completely avoiding the question before you as usual.

And your use of 1 John 2:27 is self-defeating. John says believers “need not that any man teach you,” yet John himself is teaching them through a written epistle! Obviously, he was not forbidding biblical teaching or careful examination of Scripture. He was speaking of the anointing that enables believers to discern and abide in the truth rather than being deceived by false teachers (1 John 2:18–27).

The same problem applies to John 14:26. Jesus spoke those words directly to His disciples concerning the Holy Spirit teaching them and bringing Christ's words to their remembrance. It is not a license for you to say, “My interpretation came from within, therefore God has spoken through me and you must accept it.”

And enough with the “Bible colleges,” “seminaries,” “Pharisaism,” and “church-ianity.” I haven't appealed to any of them. I gave you two passages straight from Scripture:

Zechariah 4:14 — “These are the two anointed ones...”

Revelation 11:4 — “These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks...”

That is Scripture being compared with Scripture. You still have not shown where Scripture identifies those Two Witnesses as Jesus Christ and John the Baptist.

Ironically, you say you don't even care what “correct exegesis” means, humm. Interesting. Well, exegesis simply means drawing the meaning out of the text rather than reading your own meaning into it. That is precisely the problem here.

Use the KJV. Use Strong's. Examine the Textus Receptus. Fine. Yet, none of them says, “The Two Witnesses are Jesus Christ and John the Baptist.” LOL.

So stop claiming that disagreement with you equals disagreement with God. The Holy Spirit inspired the Scriptures, and therefore your interpretation can and should be tested by those Scriptures.

After all these posts, you still have not provided the biblical proof I asked for. You have provided plenty of claims about how you "receive" your interpretation, but virtually nothing demonstrating that your interpretation is actually what Revelation 11 teaches. Sad!

Sorry, I am not the Holy Spirit that teaches you or anyone anything. I can only share what he has taught me from the KJV Bible. We all have our growth in Christ at different rates.

That is what 1 John 2:27 is saying.
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

 

[Earburner]

Wow... you have now crossed from failing to prove your interpretation into claiming that God Himself is speaking through you, and therefore anyone who challenges your interpretation is resisting the Holy Spirit. That is not exegesis. That is an attempt to make your interpretation immune from biblical examination. LOL!

1 John 2:27 does NOT prove that Jesus and John the Baptist are the Two Witnesses. Not one word in that verse identifies them as such. You have simply quoted another passage about the anointing of believers while completely avoiding the question before you as usual.

And your use of 1 John 2:27 is self-defeating. John says believers “need not that any man teach you,” yet John himself is teaching them through a written epistle! Obviously, he was not forbidding biblical teaching or careful examination of Scripture. He was speaking of the anointing that enables believers to discern and abide in the truth rather than being deceived by false teachers (1 John 2:18–27).

The same problem applies to John 14:26. Jesus spoke those words directly to His disciples concerning the Holy Spirit teaching them and bringing Christ's words to their remembrance. It is not a license for you to say, “My interpretation came from within, therefore God has spoken through me and you must accept it.”

And enough with the “Bible colleges,” “seminaries,” “Pharisaism,” and “church-ianity.” I haven't appealed to any of them. I gave you two passages straight from Scripture:

Zechariah 4:14 — “These are the two anointed ones...”

Revelation 11:4 — “These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks...”

That is Scripture being compared with Scripture. You still have not shown where Scripture identifies those Two Witnesses as Jesus Christ and John the Baptist.

Ironically, you say you don't even care what “correct exegesis” means, humm. Interesting. Well, exegesis simply means drawing the meaning out of the text rather than reading your own meaning into it. That is precisely the problem here.

Use the KJV. Use Strong's. Examine the Textus Receptus. Fine. Yet, none of them says, “The Two Witnesses are Jesus Christ and John the Baptist.” LOL.

So stop claiming that disagreement with you equals disagreement with God. The Holy Spirit inspired the Scriptures, and therefore your interpretation can and should be tested by those Scriptures.

After all these posts, you still have not provided the biblical proof I asked for. You have provided plenty of claims about how you "receive" your interpretation, but virtually nothing demonstrating that your interpretation is actually what Revelation 11 teaches. Sad!

Quoting you:
"Use the KJV. Use Strong's. Examine the Textus Receptus. Fine. Yet, none of them says, “The Two Witnesses are Jesus Christ and John the Baptist.” LOL."

EB's reply:
None of them (Strong's etc.) say that Rev. 11 is about Elijah, Enoch, Moses or anyone else, but people continually do it. But then again, even Jesus Himself says that John the Baptist was of the spirit of Elija. So what does everyone do? On BOTH accounts, they literally IGNORE what Jesus said.
Even 3 disciples did it, after Jesus had plainly said that they would see heaven opened and the angels ascending and descending upon the Son of man.
 Nope! Right away they are seeing through eyes blinded by a bright light from out of God's Heaven, and immediately they know what Elijah and Moses looked like thousands of years ago. Yeah right!!

Oh, and by the way, the two witnesses, John the Baptist and Jesus, DID COME before the great and dreadful day of the Lord.
And John,....he did perform the role assigned to him perfectly.

Mal. 4
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

 

[TribulationSigns]

I have answered it. I KEEP referencing all of 1Cor. ch. 2, but you still CAN'T HEAR IT. All you want to do is quote scripture verbatim. That is only half the answer. The other is that which the Holy Spirit teaches, and not that which is taught by the wisdom of man, which for sure ALWAYS gravitates to the written word, simply because that is all the human mind can do.
It can only read the words, turn the page, read the words, turn the page, and on and on.
I am far from being refuted in the Spirit. You however can only be refuted if you misspell scripture. Nobody will call you wrong, if that is all you do.

No, you have not answered it. You have answered a completely different question: How do you believe Christians understand spiritual truth? I asked: Where does Scripture identify the Two Witnesses as Jesus Christ and John the Baptist?

Repeating “1 Corinthians 2” fifty times will not make that identification appear in the chapter. 1 Corinthians 2 never mentions John the Baptist, the Two Witnesses, Zechariah's two olive trees, or Revelation 11. Therefore, it does not prove your claim. Epic Fail!

Worse, you have now created an argument that cannot possibly be tested:

“The Holy Spirit taught me this. If you disagree, you simply can't hear the Spirit.”

LOL!!! That is circular reasoning, not biblical interpretation. By that standard, anyone could teach anything and silence every objection by saying, “God revealed it to me spiritually, and if you don't see it, you aren't listening to God.”

And your statement that relying upon the written Word is merely what “the human mind can do” is astonishing. The written Word is precisely what the Holy Spirit inspired! Paul says Scripture is “given by inspiration of God” (2 Timothy 3:16). The Bereans were called noble because they “searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so” (Acts 17:11). They tested even apostolic preaching against the written Word.

The Holy Spirit does not compete with the Scriptures He inspired.

So here is the question one final time:

Show from Scripture that the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11 are Jesus Christ and John the Baptist.

Not “1 Corinthians 2 says the Spirit teaches me.”

Not “you can't hear the Spirit.”

Not “Bible colleges corrupted you.”

Not “the wisdom of men.”

Give the biblical evidence establishing those two identities.

If your only response is, “The Holy Spirit revealed to me that this is what the passage means,” then you have finally demonstrated my point: you cannot prove your interpretation from Scripture. Simple as that!

You haven't refuted my argument “in the Spirit.” You have simply declared yourself spiritually correct while making your position impossible to test.

That isn't an answer.

It's an escape hatch from having to give one. You remained REFUTED because of YOUR failure and false claim that the Holy Spirit told you so. Funny.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Sorry, I am not the Holy Spirit that teaches you or anyone anything. I can only share what he has taught me from the KJV Bible. We all have our growth in Christ at different rates.

That is what 1 John 2:27 is saying.
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Lame!

And once again, you have not answered the question. You have merely repeated 1 John 2:27 as though it somehow proves that Jesus Christ and John the Baptist are the Two Witnesses.

It doesn't!

In fact, read the context of 1 John 2:18–27. John is warning believers about antichrists and deceivers and assuring them that the anointing they received enables them to know and abide in the truth. He is not teaching that every personal interpretation someone attributes to the Holy Spirit is automatically correct and beyond examination.

And obviously “ye need not that any man teach you” cannot mean Christians literally need no human teaching whatsoever. John himself was teaching them by writing those very words! Paul taught believers. Peter taught believers. Pastors and teachers are gifts Christ gave to His Church (Ephesians 4:11–12).

Most importantly, 1 John 2:27 says absolutely nothing about the identity of the Two Witnesses.

You say, “I can only share what He has taught me from the KJV Bible.” Fine. Then show me from that KJV Bible where it teaches:

Two Witnesses = Jesus Christ + John the Baptist.

That is all I have been asking.

Instead, every time I ask for biblical evidence for that identification, you give me another passage explaining why you believe the Holy Spirit teaches you.

That does not establish your interpretation. It only explains why you believe your interpretation.

And telling me that “we all grow at different rates” subtly implies that I disagree because I haven't spiritually matured enough to see what you see. That still avoids the issue.

I don't need to reach your supposed level of spiritual growth.

I need you to prove your claim from the text.

After all these exchanges, you still haven't done it. You remain refuted!

 

[TribulationSigns]

Quoting you:
"Use the KJV. Use Strong's. Examine the Textus Receptus. Fine. Yet, none of them says, “The Two Witnesses are Jesus Christ and John the Baptist.” LOL."

EB's reply:
None of them (Strong's etc.) say that Rev. 11 is about Elijah, Enoch, Moses or anyone else, but people continually do it. But then again, even Jesus Himself says that John the Baptist was of the spirit of Elija. So what does everyone do? On BOTH accounts, they literally IGNORE what Jesus said.
Even 3 disciples did it, after Jesus had plainly said that they would see heaven opened and the angels ascending and descending upon the Son of man.
 Nope! Right away they are seeing through eyes blinded by a bright light from out of God's Heaven, and immediately they know what Elijah and Moses looked like thousands of years ago. Yeah right!!

Here you're doing it again—bringing up what OTHER people believe about Elijah, Enoch, or Moses instead of proving your own claim that the Two Witnesses are Jesus Christ and John the Baptist. LOL!!!!!!

I don't care whether someone else incorrectly identifies them as Moses and Elijah. Their failure to prove their interpretation does not prove yours. That's a complete non sequitur!

And your appeal to John being “Elijah” actually illustrates my point about comparing Scripture with Scripture. Jesus said of John, “this is Elias, which was for to come” (Matthew 11:14), and Luke explains exactly how: John would go before Christ “in the spirit and power of Elias” (Luke 1:17). THAT is a biblical identification because Scripture itself makes the connection.

Now do the same thing with your Two Witnesses theory.

Show me the corresponding Scripture that says or establishes:

The two olive trees / Two Witnesses = Jesus Christ and John the Baptist.

You still haven't.

And now you're dragging the Transfiguration into this and apparently questioning whether Moses and Elijah were actually Moses and Elijah. Yet Matthew explicitly says, “there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him” (Matthew 17:3). Mark 9:4 and Luke 9:30 say the same thing. I don't need to speculate about how the disciples recognized them because the inspired text identifies them for us.

That's exactly the standard I've been asking you to follow!

Scripture identifies John with Elijah's prophetic role—I accept it.

Scripture identifies the figures at the Transfiguration as Moses and Elijah—I accept it.

Now show me where Scripture identifies the Two Witnesses as Jesus and John—you can't.

So stop pointing at everyone else's interpretations as though disproving them somehow proves yours. You have spent post after post discussing the Holy Spirit, Bible colleges, Pharisees, Elijah, Moses, the Transfiguration, and what other Christians supposedly get wrong.

But the one thing you STILL haven't produced is the thing I asked for from the beginning:

Biblical evidence that identifies the Two Witnesses as Jesus Christ and John the Baptist.

At this point, every new detour only makes the absence of that evidence more obvious. DUH!

You are digging yoruself deeper into the hole believing that the Holy Spirit is telling you something this and something that. LOL.

 

[Earburner]

Here you're doing it again—bringing up what OTHER people believe about Elijah, Enoch, or Moses instead of proving your own claim that the Two Witnesses are Jesus Christ and John the Baptist. LOL!!!!!!

I don't care whether someone else incorrectly identifies them as Moses and Elijah. Their failure to prove their interpretation does not prove yours. That's a complete non sequitur!

And your appeal to John being “Elijah” actually illustrates my point about comparing Scripture with Scripture. Jesus said of John, “this is Elias, which was for to come” (Matthew 11:14), and Luke explains exactly how: John would go before Christ “in the spirit and power of Elias” (Luke 1:17). THAT is a biblical identification because Scripture itself makes the connection.

Now do the same thing with your Two Witnesses theory.

Show me the corresponding Scripture that says or establishes:

The two olive trees / Two Witnesses = Jesus Christ and John the Baptist.

You still haven't.

And now you're dragging the Transfiguration into this and apparently questioning whether Moses and Elijah were actually Moses and Elijah. Yet Matthew explicitly says, “there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him” (Matthew 17:3). Mark 9:4 and Luke 9:30 say the same thing. I don't need to speculate about how the disciples recognized them because the inspired text identifies them for us.

That's exactly the standard I've been asking you to follow!

Scripture identifies John with Elijah's prophetic role—I accept it.

Scripture identifies the figures at the Transfiguration as Moses and Elijah—I accept it.

Now show me where Scripture identifies the Two Witnesses as Jesus and John—you can't.

So stop pointing at everyone else's interpretations as though disproving them somehow proves yours. You have spent post after post discussing the Holy Spirit, Bible colleges, Pharisees, Elijah, Moses, the Transfiguration, and what other Christians supposedly get wrong.

But the one thing you STILL haven't produced is the thing I asked for from the beginning:

Biblical evidence that identifies the Two Witnesses as Jesus Christ and John the Baptist.

At this point, every new detour only makes the absence of that evidence more obvious. DUH!

You are digging yoruself deeper into the hole believing that the Holy Spirit is telling you something this and something that. LOL.

You have the same problem as the Pharisees had with Jesus, they wanted proof of who He was. You want proof from me of why I believe that John the Baptist and Jesus are the fulfillment of Rev. 11.
As Jesus did provide scripture to the Pharisees of who he was, so also have provided the scriptures that support my belief. It's not my fault that you cannot hear the voice of the Holy Spirit for you in that regard. It is apparent to me that you have an alternative belief that is deep rooted, and therefore you are defending.

 

[TribulationSigns]

You have the same problem as the Pharisees had with Jesus, they wanted proof of who He was. You want proof from me of why I believe that John the Baptist and Jesus are the fulfillment of Rev. 11.
As Jesus did provide scripture to the Pharisees of who he was, so also have provided the scriptures that support my belief. It's not my fault that you cannot hear the voice of the Holy Spirit for you in that regard. It is apparent to me that you have an alternative belief that is deep rooted, and therefore you are defending.

No, the Pharisee comparison actually works against your argument.

Jesus did not tell people, “If you don’t accept My claim, you simply cannot hear the Holy Spirit.” He repeatedly appealed to objective testimony: the Scriptures, His works, John the Baptist, and the Father (John 5:31–47). He even said, “Search the scriptures” (John 5:39). So asking for biblical evidence is hardly behaving like a Pharisee.

And notice what you just admitted: you have a “belief” that Jesus and John fulfill Revelation 11. That’s fine. But your belief is not automatically the Holy Spirit’s interpretation simply because you sincerely believe He taught it to you.

You keep giving me Scriptures showing that John was Spirit-filled, came in the spirit and power of Elijah, and testified of Christ. I accept all of those Scriptures. What you have NOT demonstrated is the necessary connection:

Therefore Jesus and John are the two olive trees, two candlesticks, and Two Witnesses of Revelation 11.

That conclusion is coming from you, not from any verse you have produced.

And please stop saying that because I don’t accept your interpretation, I “cannot hear the voice of the Holy Spirit.” That is spiritually presumptuous. You are effectively making disagreement with your interpretation equivalent to disagreement with the Holy Spirit.

My position being “deep rooted” is irrelevant. I would abandon any interpretation if Scripture proved it wrong. That’s precisely why I keep asking you to demonstrate yours from Scripture.

You haven’t.

So no, I am not asking you to prove something because I am a Pharisee. I am asking you to do exactly what Christ and the apostles repeatedly did: establish doctrine from God’s Word.

Until you establish that final connection from the text, “the Holy Spirit taught me” remains your claim about your interpretation—not proof of the interpretation itself.

Game over for you. I’m moving on. I knew that you can’t really defend your two witness theories.

Bye!

 

[Truth7t7]

@TribulationSigns . What are you "rolling on the floor laughing" at? @Truth7t7 provided the correct OT prophecy of Zech. 4:14 (520 BC.) about the two witnesses.

SURELY all would agree, that Zech. 4:14 IS NOT a prophecy about a fabricated event far out into the future, about "two witnesses".
There is no need to prophecy 2550+ years into the far future about "two witnesses", when in 520 years, THE MOST IMPORTANT EVENT for both God and man was first and foremost.
And that is, John the Baptist was THE witness of who Jesus was/is, and Jesus was
the witness of who God the Father IS.

Zechariah 4:11-14 & Revelation 11:3-4 represent the very same description in parallel teachings, (Two Anointed Ones-Two Witnesses)

Jesus Is The Lord

Zechariah 4:11-14KJV
11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

Revelation 11:3-4KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

 

[Earburner]

No, the Pharisee comparison actually works against your argument.

Jesus did not tell people, “If you don’t accept My claim, you simply cannot hear the Holy Spirit.” He repeatedly appealed to objective testimony: the Scriptures, His works, John the Baptist, and the Father (John 5:31–47). He even said, “Search the scriptures” (John 5:39). So asking for biblical evidence is hardly behaving like a Pharisee.

And notice what you just admitted: you have a “belief” that Jesus and John fulfill Revelation 11. That’s fine. But your belief is not automatically the Holy Spirit’s interpretation simply because you sincerely believe He taught it to you.

You keep giving me Scriptures showing that John was Spirit-filled, came in the spirit and power of Elijah, and testified of Christ. I accept all of those Scriptures. What you have NOT demonstrated is the necessary connection:

Therefore Jesus and John are the two olive trees, two candlesticks, and Two Witnesses of Revelation 11.

That conclusion is coming from you, not from any verse you have produced.

And please stop saying that because I don’t accept your interpretation, I “cannot hear the voice of the Holy Spirit.” That is spiritually presumptuous. You are effectively making disagreement with your interpretation equivalent to disagreement with the Holy Spirit.

My position being “deep rooted” is irrelevant. I would abandon any interpretation if Scripture proved it wrong. That’s precisely why I keep asking you to demonstrate yours from Scripture.

You haven’t.

So no, I am not asking you to prove something because I am a Pharisee. I am asking you to do exactly what Christ and the apostles repeatedly did: establish doctrine from God’s Word.

Until you establish that final connection from the text, “the Holy Spirit taught me” remains your claim about your interpretation—not proof of the interpretation itself.

Game over for you. I’m moving on. I knew that you can’t really defend your two witness theories.

Bye!

The answer to all of your complaining is Zech. 4:6.
Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might [internal mental fortitude], nor by power [external religious persuasion], but [rather] by my spirit, saith the Lord of hosts.

Simple answer to the John/Jesus and Pharisee delema, Both John and Jesus were the fulness and permanency of the Holy Spirit. But for the Pharisees, they never had the permanency/fulness of the Holy Spirit at all, because He WAS NOT YET GIVEN to anyone, no not even Abraham, Moses etc. because Jesus was not yet glorified. John 7:39.

So then the proof of their Joint ministry is that it would "rain" not in the days of their prophecy". Rev. 11:6.
Which is to say, at THAT time of their combined ministry of 1260 days, aka 3.5 years, only John and Jesus had the Holy Spirit within them, and that it would not "rain" again until Pentecost.

If you have not been whacked lop sided by church-ianity, as to the truth of Who the 70th week is about, then "by His Spirit" you will understand that KJV Dan. 9:27, in the last sentence, is about Pentecost and how that which was "determined" in 9:24 "shall be poured [out] upon the desolate [those who are void of God]. See Acts 2:17-18, 10:44-45.

You and I, who are Born again, do have the permanency of the Holy Spirit, and therefore we are without excuse, as the parable of the Sower does reveal. Mark 4:3-9; Luke 8:5-15.

See you soon!

 

[Earburner]

Zechariah 4:11-14 & Revelation 11:3-4 represent the very same description in parallel teachings, (Two Anointed Ones-Two Witnesses)

Jesus Is The Lord

Zechariah 4:11-14KJV
11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

Revelation 11:3-4KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

I agree!
Now, do you agree that it is true about John the Baptist and Jesus, that only they WERE the two witnesses as prophesied in Zech. 3:8-10 and 4:6-7, 10-14?

Please remember that the book of Revelation is about past, present and future events.
It's not all about the future only.

Concerning biblical prophecy, unfortunately two notable Theologins of the 1800s have steered church-ianity far off course, and MANY Christians have followed their blatant and cloaked LIES. Namely: Darby and Schofield

 

[rwb]

Simple answer to the John/Jesus and Pharisee delema, Both John and Jesus were the fulness and permanency of the Holy Spirit. But for the Pharisees, they never had the permanency/fulness of the Holy Spirit at all, because He WAS NOT YET GIVEN to anyone, no not even Abraham, Moses etc. because Jesus was not yet glorified. John 7:39.

It's not that the Spirit was not given to some before Pentecost. He was not given to be permanently within faithful saints birthing them from above, promising never to leave nor forsake whosoever is indwelt through Him. Both Abraham and Moses were led by the Spirit.

John 14:17 (KJV) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

If you believe the two witnesses are literally two individuals; John the Baptist and Christ, do you also believe they will literally come into the world again, raised up from the dead?

Just to clarify, the Bible does not limit anointing of the Holy Spirit to only John and Christ. Just as God anointed Christ, He also anoints with the Spirit whosoever believes on Him. That is the Church on earth as we proclaim the gospel of the Kingdom of God through Christ unto all the earth. They are two candlesticks and two olive trees being sent by God through the power of His Spirit found of Old through Law and Prophets, and found of New through the Message (gospel) and Spirit. Without the anointing through the Holy Spirit no man in any age would believe on Him. Because without the anointing of the Spirit we have NOT eyes to see (know) Him.

2 Corinthians 1:21 (KJV) Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;

Hebrews 1:9 (KJV) Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Revelation 3:18 (KJV) I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

 

[rwb]

Which is to say, at THAT time of their combined ministry of 1260 days, aka 3.5 years, only John and Jesus had the Holy Spirit within them, and that it would not "rain" again until Pentecost.

This is not true! After His resurrection, before Pentecost, Christ breathed first on His disciples, imputing the Holy Spirit unto them.

John 20:22 (KJV) And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

 

[Earburner]

It's not that the Spirit was not given to some before Pentecost. He was not given to be permanently within faithful saints birthing them from above, promising never to leave nor forsake whosoever is indwelt through Him. Both Abraham and Moses were led by the Spirit.

John and Jesus were the only Two people who were ever born HAVING the Holy Spirit before their physical birth. I would say that qualifies them 100%

You are NOT HEARING John 7:39, so instead you can't help but believe the garbage that is being pushed upon Christians through those that the denominational Bible colleges (schools of Pharisaism) produce and generate.
Jesus WARNED us to "beware of the leaven of the Pharisees".

John 14:17 (KJV) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

If you believe the two witnesses are literally two individuals; John the Baptist and Christ, do you also believe they will literally come into the world again, raised up from the dead?

Absolutely not!! That form of belief is paganism! The prophecy of Zech. 4:14 WAS fulfilled by John the Baptist and Jesus.
Rev. 11 is a spirualized account of allegories and metaphors of that event. It is not to be read and understood literally, as being some kind of a separate event still in the future.

Just to clarify, the Bible does not limit anointing of the Holy Spirit to only John and Christ. Just as God anointed Christ, He also anoints with the Spirit whosoever believes on Him. That is the Church on earth as we proclaim the gospel of the Kingdom of God through Christ unto all the earth. They are two candlesticks and two olive trees being sent by God through the power of His Spirit found of Old through Law and Prophets, and found of New through the Message (gospel) and Spirit. Without the anointing through the Holy Spirit no man in any age would believe on Him. Because without the anointing of the Spirit we have NOT eyes to see (know) Him.

2 Corinthians 1:21 (KJV) Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;

Hebrews 1:9 (KJV) Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Revelation 3:18 (KJV) I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Again, because you cannot hear John 7:39,
you have no sense of HOW the the Holy Spirit operated with the OC Saints as opposed to HOW He operates now with the NC Saints.
1. OC., He could only VISIT the Saints at that time and NEVER could stay with them permanently BECAUSE the blood of Jesus Christ was not yet shed to remove sin.
For that, you now can understand why God had their names written in the book of Remembrance Malachi 3:16-18.
Though they died in faith believing of "the Promise that was to come", their sins were NOT YET removed. We can see them in Rev. 6:9-11 "under the altar [of the OC]", finally receiving the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

2. NC., the Holy Spirit now permanently indwells EVERY Born again Saint of the NC.
For professing Christians who simply believe
(being neither hot nor cold), and have never repented towards God, the Holy Spirit still can only visit upon them, UNTIL they personally invite Jesus to come into their life for the forgiveness of sins. Rev. 3:15-22.

Q. By the way, what was the ordinance of God that John the Baptist proclaimed?
A. It was the act of repentance towards God. Without it, there is no forgiveness of sins extended by God, nor can the Gift of the Holy Spirit be given.