Two Witnesses - A Biblical Perspective

[TribulationSigns]

Symbolic of what?

Read all of my posts, starting with OP, on this thread. You can find the answers there.

 

[JimKnox]

Why Does Scripture Mention Their “Feet”?​

This detail is important!

Throughout Scripture, feet are associated with being sent forth with the Gospel:



And:



Therefore, when the Spirit causes the Two Witnesses to stand upon their feet, the picture is one of God's people becoming mobilized again. They rise from the silence imposed upon their testimony. They will not prophesy about salvation anymore but JUDGMENT against the abominations around them, warn that judgment is coming, and ultimately separate themselves from the apostate city.

“And Great Fear Fell Upon Them Which Saw Them”​

Their enemies thought they had won.

They thought the troublesome testimony had finally been silenced.

But suddenly the faithful stand again.

Those believers who had been pushed aside, ignored and accused of being unloving, judgmental, heartless, legalistic, hateful, homophobic, sexist, and treated as spiritually “dead” are now openly speaking. This time with warning and separating themselves from the apostate congregation as their enemies behold them.

That does not mean the world watches two corpses physically climb onto their feet. Rather, those who opposed the faithful see their renewed spiritual activity, warning of judgment and departure from apostate church.
And they fear.

Why?

Because their apparent victory over God's witnesses was temporary. The people they thought had been silenced are standing again by the power of God. Their departure also exposes the spiritual condition of the city they are leaving behind.

The witnesses stand, warn, and come out; those remaining behind recognize that something serious is happening. Their fear may manifest itself through anger, hatred, accusations and reviling against the saints.

So Revelation 11 is not primarily predicting two supernatural men performing miracles in Jerusalem.

It is revealing the history and final trial of Christ's witnessing Church:

The Two Witnesses = God's faithful Elect Church.

The 1,260 days = the symbolic New Covenant period of Gospel testimony.

Their power = the Holy Spirit working through God's Word.

Their testimony = the Gospel going into the world to gather God's Elect.

Their death = the silencing of faithful Gospel testimony as the beast overcomes their witness in the apostate external Church.

The world's rejoicing = relief that the Word which exposed their sin and warned of judgment has been silenced.

The 3½ days = a short symbolic period of silence and apparent defeat.

The Spirit of life entering them = God reviving their active testimony.

Standing upon their feet = God's witnesses becoming spiritually mobilized again to speak, warn, and come out of the apostate city.

Their enemies beholding them = those who opposed the truth witnessing this revival and separation with fear.

The Two Witnesses therefore cannot finally be defeated. Satan may be permitted to kill their testimony for a 3-1/2 days/half an hour, but he cannot destroy the eternal life God has placed within His Elect.

The Gospel accomplishes exactly what God sent it to accomplish. The witnesses finish their testimony. The Elect are gathered. The beast is permitted to rule in God's Church for a little season. The faithful stand again by the Spirit of God.

And then the end comes.

Therefore, the traditional Church teaching that the Two Witnesses are two literal men who will someday be physically killed by a literal beast or whatever is a false interpretation of Revelation 11. The passage is symbolic: the Two Witnesses represent the faithful Church, and their “death” represents the silencing of their truthful testimony within the apostate external congregation.

Selah!

Fantastic!!!
That's the best gymnastics I ever witnessed.
Even better than Amillennialists 1000 year symbolism.

 

[Truth7t7]

Will these two literal prophets in physical bodies be literally killed by the literal beast that ascends out of the literal bottomless pit making war with them, overcoming and literally killing them?

Revelation 11:7 (KJV) And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Inconsistency is the mother of biblical error. If you're going to argue this chapter through literal/physical realities, then remain consistent and insist the beast, and bottomless pit are also literal! Regardless of how totally absurd that would be.

Daniels (Little Horn) Paul's (Man Of Sin) John's (The Beast) A Future Living Human Man Who Will Be Destroyed By The Lord Jesus At His Second Coming​

Daniel's (Little Horn) Paul's (Man Of Sin) John's (The Beast) all represent the very same future human man that has a literal body that dies or is destroyed, this future individual human man is also referred to as (The Antichrist) by many as a catch all phrase for the 3 names

(The Beast Was Slain/Killed) And (His Body Destroyed) And Given To (The Burning Flame/Lake Of Fire) Personal Pronoun "His"

Daniel's (The Little Horn)
Daniel 7:8-11KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Man Of Sin, Destroyed By The Lord At His Coming, Personal Pronouns "He" "His" "Him" "Himself"

Paul's (Man Of Sin)
2 Thessalonians 2:3-9KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

(The Beast) & (The False Prophet) will be human men and they will be cast living into the lake of fire Rev 19:20, Personal Pronouns "He" "His" "Him"

(The Dragon/Satan) will give his power to (The Beast) Rev 13:4 two separate beings

John's (The Beast)
Revelation 13:3-8KJV
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

(These Both Were Cast Alive/Living) Two Separate Beings

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Fantastic!!!
That's the best gymnastics I ever witnessed.
Even better than Amillennialists 1000 year symbolism.

Is it the best you can response biblically?

Guess what, sarcasm is easy. Exegesis takes a little more work, you realize this, don't you?

Calling it “gymnastics” doesn’t actually refute anything I wrote. Revelation itself introduces the Two Witnesses symbolically as “the two olive trees” and “the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth” (Rev. 11:4). Unless you are expecting two literal botanical trees and two literal lampstands walking around Jerusalem, you already recognize that symbolic language is being used, eh?

The same applies to the “thousand years.” Revelation is an apocalyptic book filled with symbolic numbers and imagery. Simply declaring that every number must be woodenly literal is not an argument.

So instead of giving my interpretation a gymnastics score, show me from Scripture where my interpretation actually fails.

Explain why the Two Witnesses are called two olive trees and two candlesticks.

Explain why candlesticks represent churches in Revelation 1:20, but suddenly must become two individual human beings in Revelation 11 - something that your premillennial friend failed to do.

Explain why “feet,” “standing,” “death,” “resurrection,” and the other imagery cannot function spiritually when Scripture repeatedly uses physical imagery to describe spiritual realities?

That would be a biblical discussion.

Until then, “Fantastic!!! Best gymnastics ever!” is sarcasm wearing a referee shirt.

Selah.

 

[Truth7t7]

Explain why the Two Witnesses are called two olive trees and two candlesticks.

Explain why candlesticks represent churches in Revelation 1:20, but suddenly must become two individual human beings in Revelation 11 - something that your premillennial friend failed to do.

You continue to falsely suggest that the (Two Witnesses) represent the church, this is "False" "Baloney", "Malarkey", and "Laughable"

Zechariah 4:11-14 below clearly "Interprets" the olive trees and candlestick as being (The Two Anointed Ones) who are the (Two Witnesses) seen in Revelation Chapter 11, they are described as having literal physical bodies that die, and their dead bodies are literally raised from the dead before a literal world watching

Conclusion: (The Two Witnesses) do not represent the "Church" as you "Falsely" suggest

Revelation 11:3-4KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Zechariah 4:11-14KJV
11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

 

[TribulationSigns]

You continue to falsely suggest that the (Two Witnesses) represent the church, this is "False" "Baloney", "Malarkey", and "Laughable"

Zechariah 4:11-14 below clearly "Interprets" the olive trees and candlestick as being (The Two Anointed Ones) who are the (Two Witnesses) seen in Revelation Chapter 11, they are described as having literal physical bodies that die, and their dead bodies are literally raised from the dead before a literal world watching

Conclusion: (The Two Witnesses) do not represent the "Church" as you "Falsely" suggest

Whoa!

You need to be very careful calling this “baloney,” “malarkey,” and “laughable,” because you are arguing against symbolism that God Himself defines in Revelation.

Revelation 1:20 could hardly be clearer:

“The seven candlesticks which thou sawest ARE the seven churches.”

God defines the candlesticks/lampstands as churches. Then Revelation 11:4 identifies the Two Witnesses as “the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.”

Zechariah 4:14 does NOT say, “These are two literal men who will live in future Jerusalem.” It says they are “the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.” You are inserting the “two future literal men” interpretation yourself.

So stop pretending that simply quoting Zechariah settles the question. It does not.

When you ridicule the Church interpretation merely because the witnesses are called candlesticks, remember: GOD—not me—explicitly tells us that candlesticks represent churches.

Your argument needs to deal with God’s own definition instead of laughing it away.

Let God interpret His own symbols.

You remains refuted (as usual!)

Selah!

 

[Truth7t7]

Whoa!

You need to be very careful calling this “baloney,” “malarkey,” and “laughable,” because you are arguing against symbolism that God Himself defines in Revelation.

Revelation 1:20 could hardly be clearer:

“The seven candlesticks which thou sawest ARE the seven churches.”

God defines the candlesticks/lampstands as churches. Then Revelation 11:4 identifies the Two Witnesses as “the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.”

Zechariah 4:14 does NOT say, “These are two literal men who will live in future Jerusalem.” It says they are “the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.” You are inserting the “two future literal men” interpretation yourself.

So stop pretending that simply quoting Zechariah settles the question. It does not.

When you ridicule the Church interpretation merely because the witnesses are called candlesticks, remember: GOD—not me—explicitly tells us that candlesticks represent churches.

Your argument needs to deal with God’s own definition instead of laughing it away.

Let God interpret His own symbols.

You remains refuted (as usual!)

Selah!

The matter is settled, the olive trees and candle stick represent the two anointed ones in Zech 4:14 who represent the two witnesses seen in Rev 11:3-4

Scripture in Rev 11:3-18 clearly teaches that the two witnesses will have literal physical bodies that die, and these dead bodies will also be raised from the dead

You continue to falsely suggest that the (Two Witnesses) represent the church, this is "False" "Baloney", "Malarkey", and "Laughable"

Zechariah 4:11-14 below clearly "Interprets" the olive trees and candlestick as being (The Two Anointed Ones) who are the (Two Witnesses) seen in Revelation Chapter 11, they are described as having literal physical bodies that die, and their dead bodies are literally raised from the dead before a literal world watching

Conclusion: (The Two Witnesses) do not represent the "Church" as you "Falsely" suggest

Revelation 11:3-4KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Zechariah 4:11-14KJV
11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

 

[TribulationSigns]

The matter is settled, the olive trees and candle stick represent the two anointed ones in Zech 4:14 who represent the two witnesses seen in Rev 11:3-4

LOL. You keep repeating Zechariah 4 and Revelation 11 while completely ignoring Revelation 1:20, where God Himself gives us the meaning of the symbol!!

“The seven candlesticks which thou sawest ARE the seven churches.” — Revelation 1:20

That is not my definition. That is Scripture’s definition.

Revelation 11:4 then calls the Two Witnesses “the two olive trees, AND the two candlesticks.” Zechariah 4:14 calling them “the two anointed ones” does NOT magically erase Revelation 1:20.

CLEARLY, you keep quoting the verses you think support your literal-two-men doctrine while refusing to reconcile them with the verse that directly identifies candlesticks with churches. That is cherry-picking Scripture to protect your FLAWED and FALSE interpretation.

Once again, repeating “false, baloney, malarkey, laughable” is not exegesis.

Deal with Revelation 1:20 and reconcile ALL the Scripture—not just the verses your doctrine allows you to see.

Man, you are fighting a losing battle. Repent and reconcile ALL Scripture to find God's definition properly!

@rwb

 

[Truth7t7]

LOL. You keep repeating Zechariah 4 and Revelation 11 while completely ignoring Revelation 1:20, where God Himself gives us the meaning of the symbol!!

“The seven candlesticks which thou sawest ARE the seven churches.” — Revelation 1:20

That is not my definition. That is Scripture’s definition.

Revelation 11:4 then calls the Two Witnesses “the two olive trees, AND the two candlesticks.” Zechariah 4:14 calling them “the two anointed ones” does NOT magically erase Revelation 1:20.

CLEARLY, you keep quoting the verses you think support your literal-two-men doctrine while refusing to reconcile them with the verse that directly identifies candlesticks with churches. That is cherry-picking Scripture to protect your FLAWED and FALSE interpretation.

Once again, repeating “false, baloney, malarkey, laughable” is not exegesis.

Deal with Revelation 1:20 and reconcile ALL the Scripture—not just the verses your doctrine allows you to see.

Man, you are fighting a losing battle. Repent and reconcile ALL Scripture to find God's definition properly!

@rwb

Revelation 1:20 and the seven candlesticks has absolutely "No Relationship" to the word "Candlesticks" in Revelation 11:3-4 "None" its your private interpretation and claim and it's 100% wrong

The matter is settled, the olive trees and candle stick represent the two anointed ones in Zech 4:14 who represent the two witnesses seen in Rev 11:3-4

Scripture in Rev 11:3-18 clearly teaches that the two witnesses will have literal physical bodies that die, and these dead bodies will also be raised from the dead

You continue to falsely suggest that the (Two Witnesses) represent the church, this is "False" "Baloney", "Malarkey", and "Laughable"

Zechariah 4:11-14 below clearly "Interprets" the olive trees and candlestick as being (The Two Anointed Ones) who are the (Two Witnesses) seen in Revelation Chapter 11, they are described as having literal physical bodies that die, and their dead bodies are literally raised from the dead before a literal world watching

Conclusion: (The Two Witnesses) do not represent the "Church" as you "Falsely" suggest

Revelation 11:3-4KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Zechariah 4:11-14KJV
11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

 

[rwb]

Daniels (Little Horn) Paul's (Man Of Sin) John's (The Beast) A Future Living Human Man Who Will Be Destroyed By The Lord Jesus At His Second Coming​

Daniel's (Little Horn) Paul's (Man Of Sin) John's (The Beast) all represent the very same future human man that has a literal body that dies or is destroyed, this future individual human man is also referred to as (The Antichrist) by many as a catch all phrase for the 3 names

(The Beast Was Slain/Killed) And (His Body Destroyed) And Given To (The Burning Flame/Lake Of Fire) Personal Pronoun "His"

Daniel's (The Little Horn)
Daniel 7:8-11KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Man Of Sin, Destroyed By The Lord At His Coming, Personal Pronouns "He" "His" "Him" "Himself"

Paul's (Man Of Sin)
2 Thessalonians 2:3-9KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

(The Beast) & (The False Prophet) will be human men and they will be cast living into the lake of fire Rev 19:20, Personal Pronouns "He" "His" "Him"

(The Dragon/Satan) will give his power to (The Beast) Rev 13:4 two separate beings

John's (The Beast)
Revelation 13:3-8KJV
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

(These Both Were Cast Alive/Living) Two Separate Beings

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

You failed to answer my question about them being literal/physical beings: Will these two literal prophets in physical bodies be literally killed by the literal beast that ascends out of the literal bottomless pit making war with them, overcoming and literally killing them?

 

[JimKnox]

Is it the best you can response biblically?

Guess what, sarcasm is easy. Exegesis takes a little more work, you realize this, don't you?

Calling it “gymnastics” doesn’t actually refute anything I wrote. Revelation itself introduces the Two Witnesses symbolically as “the two olive trees” and “the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth” (Rev. 11:4). Unless you are expecting two literal botanical trees and two literal lampstands walking around Jerusalem, you already recognize that symbolic language is being used, eh?

The same applies to the “thousand years.” Revelation is an apocalyptic book filled with symbolic numbers and imagery. Simply declaring that every number must be woodenly literal is not an argument.

So instead of giving my interpretation a gymnastics score, show me from Scripture where my interpretation actually fails.

Explain why the Two Witnesses are called two olive trees and two candlesticks.

Explain why candlesticks represent churches in Revelation 1:20, but suddenly must become two individual human beings in Revelation 11 - something that your premillennial friend failed to do.

Explain why “feet,” “standing,” “death,” “resurrection,” and the other imagery cannot function spiritually when Scripture repeatedly uses physical imagery to describe spiritual realities?

That would be a biblical discussion.

Until then, “Fantastic!!! Best gymnastics ever!” is sarcasm wearing a referee shirt.

Selah.

Declaring everything is symbolic just because SOME is obviously symbolic is just lazy eisegesis.
However, when a term (a thousand years) is REPEATED 6 times in 7 verses it is NOT symbolic.
They same is true when Scripture DEFINES a symbolic term with a LITERAL thing.
These two witnesses behave as humans; therefore they ARE humans, even though they are described as olive trees or candlesticks.

The BEST rule for Bible reading is EVERYTHING is literal unless context is clearly symbolic, metaphors or analogy .

 

[TribulationSigns]

Declaring everything is symbolic just because SOME is obviously symbolic is just lazy eisegesis.
However, when a term (a thousand years) is REPEATED 6 times in 7 verses it is NOT symbolic.
They same is true when Scripture DEFINES a symbolic term with a LITERAL thing.
These two witnesses behave as humans; therefore they ARE humans, even though they are described as olive trees or candlesticks.

The BEST rule for Bible reading is EVERYTHING is literal unless context is clearly symbolic, metaphors or analogy .

No, that is precisely where your hermeneutic goes wrong. Repetition does not magically turn symbolic language into literal language. Saying “a thousand years” six times does not prove that God is counting exactly 1,000 calendar years. Weak assumption.

You apparently have not considered HOW Scripture itself uses numbers symbolically. 10, 100, 1,000 and their multiples can signify "fullness of whatever is in view. " For example, God owns “the cattle upon a thousand hills” (Psalm 50:10). Does that mean hill #1,001 belongs to somebody else? Of course not. The thousand expresses fullness, not a mathematical limitation.

And yes, the Two Witnesses are human beings—I never denied that! My argument is that they are not two supernatural individual men appearing in the future as you think. They represent God's witnessing people—the faithful Christians comprising His Church and empowered by the Holy Spirit.

Revelation itself tells us:

“The seven candlesticks which thou sawest ARE the seven churches.” — Revelation 1:20

Then Revelation 11:4 says of the Two Witnesses:

“These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.”

So Scripture has already established the ecclesial symbolism of a candlestick. You cannot simply announce, “They behave like humans, therefore they must be exactly two individual men,” and pretend the symbolism disappears!

And your rule that “everything is literal unless clearly proven otherwise” is especially dangerous when imposed mechanically upon apocalyptic literature like Revelation. Revelation gives us beasts, horns, stars, lampstands, a dragon, a woman clothed with the sun, waters, Babylon, and many other images that Scripture itself interprets symbolically.

The sound rule is compare Scripture with Scripture and allow the Bible to interpret its own language. When God defines a symbol, we don't throw away His definition because our prophetic system demands a literal interpretation.

That kind of rigid literalism is exactly how your premillennial people end up constructing endless literal prophetic theories instead of asking what Scripture itself says its symbols mean. You are actually in wrong hand!

You and Truth7t7 remain refuted.

 

[JimKnox]

No, that is precisely where your hermeneutic goes wrong. Repetition does not magically turn symbolic language into literal language. Saying “a thousand years” six times does not prove that God is counting exactly 1,000 calendar years. Weak assumption.

You apparently have not considered HOW Scripture itself uses numbers symbolically. 10, 100, 1,000 and their multiples can signify "fullness of whatever is in view. " For example, God owns “the cattle upon a thousand hills” (Psalm 50:10). Does that mean hill #1,001 belongs to somebody else? Of course not. The thousand expresses fullness, not a mathematical limitation.

And yes, the Two Witnesses are human beings—I never denied that! My argument is that they are not two supernatural individual men appearing in the future as you think. They represent God's witnessing people—the faithful Christians comprising His Church and empowered by the Holy Spirit.

Revelation itself tells us:

“The seven candlesticks which thou sawest ARE the seven churches.” — Revelation 1:20

Then Revelation 11:4 says of the Two Witnesses:

“These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.”

So Scripture has already established the ecclesial symbolism of a candlestick. You cannot simply announce, “They behave like humans, therefore they must be exactly two individual men,” and pretend the symbolism disappears!

And your rule that “everything is literal unless clearly proven otherwise” is especially dangerous when imposed mechanically upon apocalyptic literature like Revelation. Revelation gives us beasts, horns, stars, lampstands, a dragon, a woman clothed with the sun, waters, Babylon, and many other images that Scripture itself interprets symbolically.

The sound rule is compare Scripture with Scripture and allow the Bible to interpret its own language. When God defines a symbol, we don't throw away His definition because our prophetic system demands a literal interpretation.

That kind of rigid literalism is exactly how your premillennial people end up constructing endless literal prophetic theories instead of asking what Scripture itself says its symbols mean. You are actually in wrong hand!

You and Truth7t7 remain refuted.

There you go again assuming things not in evidence.
I am NOT pretrib.
And since you INSIST on continuing to make that error and thereby prejudge everything I say: I think we are done.
You are being intellectually dishonest.

 

[Truth7t7]

No, that is precisely where your hermeneutic goes wrong. Repetition does not magically turn symbolic language into literal language. Saying “a thousand years” six times does not prove that God is counting exactly 1,000 calendar years. Weak assumption.

You apparently have not considered HOW Scripture itself uses numbers symbolically. 10, 100, 1,000 and their multiples can signify "fullness of whatever is in view. " For example, God owns “the cattle upon a thousand hills” (Psalm 50:10). Does that mean hill #1,001 belongs to somebody else? Of course not. The thousand expresses fullness, not a mathematical limitation.

1,000 represents a large number, in today's world the word used would be Billion years

The scripture below shows the interpretation, is it one literal day or a thousand literal years?

It's "Neither", its showing the human man that God is outside of time, it's that simple

2 Peter 3:8KJ
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

And yes, the Two Witnesses are human beings—I never denied that! My argument is that they are not two supernatural individual men appearing in the future as you think. They represent God's witnessing people—the faithful Christians comprising His Church and empowered by the Holy Spirit.

Revelation itself tells us:

“The seven candlesticks which thou sawest ARE the seven churches.” — Revelation 1:20

Then Revelation 11:4 says of the Two Witnesses:

“These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.”

So Scripture has already established the ecclesial symbolism of a candlestick. You cannot simply announce, “They behave like humans, therefore they must be exactly two individual men,” and pretend the symbolism disappears!

Your claims are 100% "Wrong" Revelation 1:20 and "Seven Candlesticks" has absolutely no association with Revelation 11:3-4 "None"
Just as post #109 above shows, your magic wand and bag of tricks are empty, "exposed"

You continue to deny the "Fact" that Revelation 11:3-18 teaches that the (Two Witnesses) have literal physical bodies that die, and these bodies are raised from the dead as a literal world watches, your trying to sell ice in the North Pole in the middle of winter and it ain't working

The sound rule is compare Scripture with Scripture and allow the Bible to interpret its own language. When God defines a symbol, we don't throw away His definition because our prophetic system demands a literal interpretation.

You and Truth7t7 remain refuted.

You need to look into the mirror and follow your own advice, Zechariah 4:11-14 gives the interpretation for the word "Candlestick(s)" and it clearly states the interpretation as being (The Two Anointed Ones) that are also seen in Revelation Chapter 11 as having literal physical bodies that die and these dead bodies are raised from the dead and ascend to heave in the sight of a literal world watching, your private interpretation on it being the "Church" is Laughable, Non-Existent, and that's being honestly nice

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[Truth7t7]

There you go again assuming things not in evidence.
I am NOT pretrib.
And since you INSIST on continuing to make that error and thereby prejudge everything I say: I think we are done.
You are being intellectually dishonest.

I Agree 100%

I was falsely accused several times by the poster as believing that the (Two Witnesses) will have literal fire come from their mouths, he was corrected several times and continued in the false claims

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[gpresdo]

Thank you! The Two Witnesses will not be Enoch and Elijah. Read my OP for biblical answer.

...and your scripture that says no?

 

[gpresdo]

Read all of my posts, starting with OP, on this thread. You can find the answers there.

No thanks.

 

[TribulationSigns]

...and your scripture that says no?

Haven’t refute my position yet? Got it.

 

[TribulationSigns]

No thanks.

Surprise. Surprise.

 

[TribulationSigns]

There you go again assuming things not in evidence.

I am NOT pretrib.
And since you INSIST on continuing to make that error and thereby prejudge everything I say: I think we are done.
You are being intellectually dishonest.

Nice diversion, but it does not rescue your argument.

Yes, I knew that you are midtrib. Fine. But you are still operating within a premillennial framework, which is exactly what I was addressing. Whether you place the rapture before, during, or at the end of the tribulation does absolutely NOTHING to answer my argument concerning the symbolic thousand years or the Two Witnesses.

Instead of answering Psalm 50:10, Revelation 1:20, Revelation 11:4, or explaining why repetition supposedly makes a symbolic number literal, you grabbed onto one mistaken label and declared me “intellectually dishonest.”

That is an escape, not a refutation.

Correct the label to midtrib premillennialist and my biblical argument remains standing exactly where I left it.

If you think I am wrong, refute the Scriptures and reasoning I presented. Don't hide behind a label and pretend you answered the argument.

You haven't.