Contradiction or wrongly dividing ? !!!

[Wick Stick]

Covenant theology views the church as the one people of God, with Israel's promises fulfilled in Christ.

Is that what you believe?

No. I call that Replacement Theology (derogatory).

Covenant theology, so far as I know, understands the Bible in terms of covenants:

1) Adamic covenant (I don't actually believe in this one)
2) Noahide covenant
3) Abrahamic covenant
4) Mosaic covenant
5) Davidic covenant
6) New covenant

Not everybody agrees about everything.

My view is that the New Covenant is an expansion of the Abrahamic covenant, bringing Gentiles into the covenant. They don't replace Israel. They become part of Israel.

As regards Moses covenant, my view (which is probably a bit unorthodox) is that it was intended to be punitive, and the punishments were meant to be temporary. It was always the design that Israel would return to the Abrahamic covenant.

 

[GeneZ]

Gene

The Church/Body of Christ is made up of all nations whom the FATHER Calls to CHRIST

The Abrahmic Promise of the Gospel to all nations is fulfilled in CHRIST = John 3:16 & Matthew 11:17

And JESUS was teaching and was saying to them, “Has it not been written:
‘My house will be called a house of prayer for all the nations’?
But you⁺ have made it ‘a den of robbers.’”

That is not referring to the Church, but another dispensation.

For we have no burnt offerings in the Church age.

Isaiah 56:7

These I will bring to my holy mountain​

and give them joy in my house of prayer.​

Their burnt offerings and sacrifices​

will be accepted on my altar;​

for my house will be called​

a house of prayer for all nations.”​

And...

Mark 11:17

And He began to teach and say to them, ​

“Is it not written: ‘My house will be called a house of prayer for all the nations’? ​

But you have made it a den of robbers.”​

Again, that was said by Jesus concerning the Temple standing at that time in Jerusalem.

Jews at that time lived in all nations and would travel to Jerusalem to pray in that temple.

Remember what happened at Pentecost?
Jews from all nations heard at Pentecost the speaking of tongues in their native language.

Acts 2:4-8​

​

And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with different tongues, ​

as the Spirit was giving them the ability to speak out.​

​

Now there were Jews residing in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven. ​

And when this sound occurred, the crowd came together and they were bewildered, because ​

each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language. They were amazed and astonished, ​

saying, “Why, are not all these who are speaking Galileans? And how is it that we each hear them in ​

our own language to which we were born? ​

........

 

[Wick Stick]

The father of nations.

The Church is not "nations" ...

It's Ab haGoyim (אב המון)

The promise is fulfilled in the adoption. Those who believe like Abraham, become Abraham's children.

There is a fine line here that is not being seen.

Point it out, then?

 

[GeneZ]

No. I call that Replacement Theology (derogatory).

Covenant theology, so far as I know, understands the Bible in terms of covenants:

1) Adamic covenant (I don't actually believe in this one)
2) Noahide covenant
3) Abrahamic covenant
4) Mosaic covenant
5) Davidic covenant
6) New covenant

Not everybody agrees about everything.

My view is that the New Covenant is an expansion of the Abrahamic covenant, bringing Gentiles into the covenant. They don't replace Israel. They become part of Israel.

As regards Moses covenant, my view (which is probably a bit unorthodox) is that it was intended to be punitive, and the punishments were meant to be temporary. It was always the design that Israel would return to the Abrahamic covenant.

As far as I can now see?
Each covenant comes sewn to a dispensation, which defines the dispensation.

 

[GeneZ]

It's Ab haGoyim (אב המון)

The promise is fulfilled in the adoption. Those who believe like Abraham, become Abraham's children.

Yes...
Like father, like son.

Isaac, his child, and he was not the church.
Isaac was saved simply by faith in the Lord.
He will have a different eternal life than the Bride of Christ.

Abraham was a gentile saved by faith in God.
It was through Abraham's seed that God promised the Messiah would come.

 

[Wick Stick]

As far as I can now see?
Each covenant comes sewn to a dispensation, which defines the dispensation.

Dispensations end at some point, and there's a transition to the next one.

Covenants are permanent. The Noahide, Abrahamic, and Mosaic covenants are all still in effect to this day. Not everyone is a part of all of them, but they're still around.

 

[Behold]

but the righteous into life eternal.

Notice reader.

"But the RIGHTEOUS, = into eternal life".

Now, who are the "righteous"?

Who is it, ???????????????/ and how do you get there?

See that ?

"who are the righteous, and how do YOU get there".

Now, if you simply answer this question according to John 14:6 = HOW God offers Eternal Salvation to a SINNER, then the answer is completely simple.

" (God's) GRACE through FAITH".
"Justification BY Faith without works or deeds of the Law".

But if you try to answer it, using Law and commandment keeping, and trying to earn salvation, then you will never be able to understand God's Salvation and that is why many of you dont.

Now, ....... God's Salvation, is not a WHAT, and its not a situation that you perform.

God's Salvation is : Jesus on THE Cross = dealing with all your SIn and providing you with Eternal Life, as the GIFT of God.

See that?
See that GIFT?
Do you SEE THAT, or can you not see it?
And if you can't SEE IT, then you are ether LOST, not born again,....... or you are a very confused Christian, whose mind is carnal and you have no understanding of GOD's SALVATION.

Now, God's SALVATION is not a WHAT, nor is it you trying to perform for God.
God's Salvation is a GIFT from GOD that costs you nothing to recieve it, yet it cost Jesus His Tortured Body and His Shed Blood so that it could be FREE TO RECEIVE. = Given to ALL who will. BELIEVE.

Reader, Salvation is not something you Do..... Salvation is exactly what Jesus THE Christ has FINISHED ON THE CROSS, 2000 yrs ago, that is your SALVATiON.
Your SALVATiON is Jesus's BLOOD and DEATH .

Do you understand this Yet?

Do you understand that God's Gift of Salvation is Jesus's BLOOD AND DEATH provided to you by GOD through FAITH = as "The Gift of Salvation". ?

Salvation is a FREE GIFT from GOD.
Salvation is the finished work of : Jesus on The Cross, and you can't do that for yourself.
Do you understand?............Do you SEE IT ?
And IF you can SEE IT, and you open your heart to God by faith, then GOD will give you what Jesus has ETERNALLY provided to you as Blood and Death Sacrifice for you......which is the NEW COVENANT, and the NEW TESTAMANT that is the : BLOOD Atonement.

 

[GeneZ]

Dispensations end at some point, and there's a transition to the next one.

Covenants are permanent. The Noahide, Abrahamic, and Mosaic covenants are all still in effect to this day. Not everyone is a part of all of them, but they're still around.

Who today would be under the Noahide covenant and be saved?

 

[David in NJ]

That is not referring to the Church, but another dispensation.

For we have no burnt offerings in the Church age.

Isaiah 56:7

These I will bring to my holy mountain​

and give them joy in my house of prayer.​

Their burnt offerings and sacrifices​

will be accepted on my altar;​

for my house will be called​

a house of prayer for all nations.”​

And...

Mark 11:17

And He began to teach and say to them, ​

“Is it not written: ‘My house will be called a house of prayer for all the nations’? ​

But you have made it a den of robbers.”​

Again, that was said by Jesus concerning the Temple standing at that time in Jerusalem.

Jews at that time lived in all nations and would travel to Jerusalem to pray in that temple.

Remember what happened at Pentecost?
Jews from all nations heard at Pentecost the speaking of tongues in their native language.

Acts 2:4-8​

​

And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with different tongues, ​

as the Spirit was giving them the ability to speak out.​

​

Now there were Jews residing in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven. ​

And when this sound occurred, the crowd came together and they were bewildered, because ​

each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language. They were amazed and astonished, ​

saying, “Why, are not all these who are speaking Galileans? And how is it that we each hear them in ​

our own language to which we were born? ​

........

My brother in Christ = Gene,

GOD has been bringing His Elect to His Holy Mountain since the Resurrection of CHRIST = Hebrews 12:18-24

For you have not come to a mountain that can be touched and that is burning with fire; to darkness, gloom, and storm; 19to a trumpet blast or to a voice that made its hearers beg that no further word be spoken. 20For they could not bear what was commanded: “If even an animal touches the mountain, it must be stoned.” 21The sight was so terrifying that even Moses said, “I am trembling with fear.”

22Instead, you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem.
You have come to myriads of angels 23in joyful assembly, to the congregation of the firstborn, enrolled in heaven. You have come to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

Gene, flee Baptist Dispensation theology = it is NOT of GOD but is from men, puffed up theologians in their own imaginations

 

[Grailhunter]

@GeneZ @Wick Stick and others

Just the facts man! LOL It is amazing the things that fill people's minds without it being in the Bible.
Oddly enough the word promise does not occur in the Old Testament.
The phrase "Abrahamic Promise" does not occur until the New Testament.
Of those things Yahweh told Abraham, very few came true.
Abraham's descendants are not like the sands of the desert or the stars of the sky.
Israel is a wonderful nation, but it is not, nor ever was a great nation.
Yahweh told Abraham that he would protect his people. The history of the Jews is a horror. Ten of the twelve tribes captured. Their women taken and the ten tribes bred out of existence. The men worked as naked slaves until they died.
Tens of thousands impaled by Greeks and Romans and through history persecuted and shunned by Christian nations. It wasn't until the US backed them and the Six Day War that Jews got Israel back.
Today the US is Israel's closest ally, but a lot of our people, even so called Christians hate Israel. Europe is in a love affair with the Moslems.

 

[PeterAndroz]

Notice reader.

"But the RIGHTEOUS, = into eternal life".

Now, who are the "righteous"?

Who is it, ???????????????/ and how do you get there?

See that ?

"who are the righteous, and how do YOU get there".

Now, if you simply answer this question according to John 14:6 = HOW God offers Eternal Salvation to a SINNER, then the answer is completely simple.

" (God's) GRACE through FAITH".
"Justification BY Faith without works or deeds of the Law".

But if you try to answer it, using Law and commandment keeping, and trying to earn salvation, then you will never be able to understand God's Salvation and that is why many of you dont.

Now, ....... God's Salvation, is not a WHAT, and its not a situation that you perform.

God's Salvation is : Jesus on THE Cross = dealing with all your SIn and providing you with Eternal Life, as the GIFT of God.

See that?
See that GIFT?
Do you SEE THAT, or can you not see it?
And if you can't SEE IT, then you are ether LOST, not born again,....... or you are a very confused Christian, whose mind is carnal and you have no understanding of GOD's SALVATION.

Now, God's SALVATION is not a WHAT, nor is it you trying to perform for God.
God's Salvation is a GIFT from GOD that costs you nothing to recieve it, yet it cost Jesus His Tortured Body and His Shed Blood so that it could be FREE TO RECEIVE. = Given to ALL who will. BELIEVE.

Reader, Salvation is not something you Do..... Salvation is exactly what Jesus THE Christ has FINISHED ON THE CROSS, 2000 yrs ago, that is your SALVATiON.
Your SALVATiON is Jesus's BLOOD and DEATH .

Do you understand this Yet?

Do you understand that God's Gift of Salvation is Jesus's BLOOD AND DEATH provided to you by GOD through FAITH = as "The Gift of Salvation". ?

Salvation is a FREE GIFT from GOD.
Salvation is the finished work of : Jesus on The Cross, and you can't do that for yourself.
Do you understand?............Do you SEE IT ?
And IF you can SEE IT, and you open your heart to God by faith, then GOD will give you what Jesus has ETERNALLY provided to you as Blood and Death Sacrifice for you......which is the NEW COVENANT, and the NEW TESTAMANT that is the : BLOOD Atonement.

Behold the following reader

""Now, who are the "righteous"?""
Those who are saved, justified & HS sealed
How does that happen today ? > 1 Cor 15:1-4, Eph 1:13
What happens to ALL their sins ? > Col 2:13
And the performance requirements ? Titus 3:5-7, Eph 2:8-9, Gal 2:16, Rom 3:28, Rom 4:5, Rom 5:1

 

[David in NJ]

@GeneZ @Wick Stick and others

Just the facts man! LOL It is amazing the things that fill people's minds without it being in the Bible.
Oddly enough the word promise does not occur in the Old Testament.
The phrase "Abrahamic Promise" does not occur until the New Testament.
Of those things Yahweh told Abraham, very few came true.
Abraham's descendants are not like the sands of the desert or the stars of the sky.
Israel is a wonderful nation, but it is not, nor ever was a great nation.
Yahweh told Abraham that he would protect his people. The history of the Jews is a horror. Ten of the twelve tribes captured. Their women taken and the ten tribes bred out of existence. The men worked as naked slaves until they died.
Tens of thousands impaled by Greeks and Romans and through history persecuted and shunned by Christian nations. It wasn't until the US backed them and the Six Day War that Jews got Israel back.
Today the US is Israel's closest ally, but a lot of our people, even so called Christians hate Israel. Europe is in a love affair with the Moslems.

Hebrews 6:13
When God made His promise to Abraham, since He had no one greater to swear by, He swore by Himself,

 

[GeneZ]

My brother in Christ = Gene,

GOD has been bringing His Elect to His Holy Mountain since the Resurrection of CHRIST = Hebrews 12:18-24

For you have not come to a mountain that can be touched and that is burning with fire; to darkness, gloom, and storm; 19to a trumpet blast or to a voice that made its hearers beg that no further word be spoken. 20For they could not bear what was commanded: “If even an animal touches the mountain, it must be stoned.” 21The sight was so terrifying that even Moses said, “I am trembling with fear.”

22Instead, you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem.
You have come to myriads of angels 23in joyful assembly, to the congregation of the firstborn, enrolled in heaven. You have come to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

Gene, flee Baptist Dispensation theology = it is NOT of GOD but is from men, puffed up theologians in their own imaginations

I am not Baptist.... Please!

 

[David in NJ]

I am not Baptist.... Please!

Does not matter!!!

pre-trib is constructed from man-made Baptist Dispensation theology

 

[GeneZ]

Does not matter!!!

pre-trib is constructed from man-made Baptist Dispensation theology

So who made yours?

This is crazy stuff.

 

[Wick Stick]

Who today would be under the Noahide covenant and be saved?

There's two questions there.

Literally everyone has the opportunity to participate in the Noahide covenant.

However, salvation is not part of that covenant, so nobody is saved that way.

 

[Wick Stick]

Just the facts man! LOL It is amazing the things that fill people's minds without it being in the Bible.
Oddly enough the word promise does not occur in the Old Testament.
The phrase "Abrahamic Promise" does not occur until the New Testament.

Just the facts? And then you immediately say something disprovable.

Psalm 105:42 For he remembered his holy promise, [and] Abraham his servant.

Of those things Yahweh told Abraham, very few came true.
Abraham's descendants are not like the sands of the desert or the stars of the sky.

They are. Almost a third of the world's population today. Over half if you count Islam, too.

Israel is a wonderful nation, but it is not, nor ever was a great nation.
Yahweh told Abraham that he would protect his people. The history of the Jews is a horror. Ten of the twelve tribes captured. Their women taken and the ten tribes bred out of existence. The men worked as naked slaves until they died.
Tens of thousands impaled by Greeks and Romans and through history persecuted and shunned by Christian nations. It wasn't until the US backed them and the Six Day War that Jews got Israel back.
Today the US is Israel's closest ally, but a lot of our people, even so called Christians hate Israel. Europe is in a love affair with the Moslems.

You're reckoning Abraham's descendants as being national Israel only. Well, that's wrong.

 

[GeneZ]

There's two questions there.

Literally everyone has the opportunity to participate in the Noahide covenant.

Modern Noahide Movement​

In recent decades, a modern Noahide movement has emerged, primarily led by Orthodox Jewish rabbis. This movement aims to educate and encourage non-Jews to observe the Seven Laws, fostering a global community of Noahides who live by these principles without converting to Judaism.


What does the Noahide covenant entail for the believer that Christianity does not already cover and supersede?
Might as well go back under the law again. That covenant had come to its end.

To participate does not validate. It's only to imitate and perform a reenactment of what once was.

 

[Grailhunter]

Just the facts? And then you immediately say something disprovable.

Psalm 105:42 For he remembered his holy promise, [and] Abraham his servant.

The word promise does not occur in the Old Testament....
For He remembered His holy word With Abraham His servant; NASB
But it is a prime example of translators putting things they want to be there in their translations.
Another example; Yahweh never threatened Hell as a punishment for the Jews. To this day the Jews do not believe in a devil or Hell.
But some translations have the words Hell or Hades in the Old Testament. The word Hell was first coined in the 8th century AD and was Anglo-Saxon and Hades is Greek god that reigned over an underworld of the same name. A Greek word in a Hebrew text.
The actual scripture below....

 

[Grailhunter]

They are. Almost a third of the world's population today. Over half if you count Islam, too.

At no time have the Jews made up more than 2.1% of the worlds population. As it is today about .2%. When the New Testament spoke of the Abrahamic promises they probably were not thinking of Moslems.