I understand your frustration! I would be frustrated also if I supported and promoted a false doctrine. It is very frustrating trying to prove the Bible says Satan was good until he disobeyed God and became evil, because the Bible tells us the exact opposite. Especially when the Bible very clearly tells us that from the beginning Satan was, is, and always shall be a murderer and liar, and in fact he is called the father of lies.
A WAR IS COMING, BUT IT WON’T BE FOUGHT ON EARTH.
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Davy
Well-Known Member
Genesis 1:24-25 (KJV) And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Genesis 3:1 (KJV) Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
Revelation 12:9 (KJV) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
The Bible nowhere speaks of the spirit called Satan as having been created. In Genesis we read only that darkness was upon the face of the deep, and God, speaking to Isaiah says:
Isaiah 45:7 (KJV) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Ge 1:1 ¶ In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Ge 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Throughout Scripture darkness is used as metaphor for wickedness, evil and Satan, as well as literally meaning night as opposed to day.
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Davy
Well-Known Member
Satan's title as "that old serpent" is a metaphor title. It does not mean Satan was a created snake, like you are trying to insinuate. That idea is kind of loony even.
Per God's parable about Lucifer in Ezekiel 28 using the "king of Tyrus", God said He originally created Lucifer perfect in his ways, and that he was created as the anointed cherub that covereth (the Mercy Seat, God's Throne). I don't know about you, but I know God's Word reveals the difference between a heavenly created being like a cherub vs. a snake.
Please see my edited reply to you above #63.
Reposting #53
The human king is operating under the power and influence of Satan. In the same manner we see Satan operated in the minds and hearts of man (Adam & Eve) at creation. Satan is the same throughout time given this earth whereby mankind might be eternally saved. It is not Satan, but mankind that was created with wisdom and perfection in beauty, who walked upon the stones in the garden of Eden until evil was found in them (Adam & Eve).
That does not mean the lamentation upon the king of Tyrus is that he might know what would become of the adversary called Satan. The lamentation is against him; king Tyrus!
Ezekiel 28:2 (KJV) Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:
Ezekiel 28:11-12 (KJV) Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
King Tyrus, belonging to mankind was of the natural seed of Adam (man), therefore that which befell Adam & Eve, befalls all of mankind, including King Tyrus. Tyrus allowed himself to become corrupted and prideful in the same manner in which A&E did when they listened to the voice of evil and disobeyed God. This is why God sent His prophet to speak judgment through parable/lamentation against these spiritually fallen kings, announcing what would become of them and every man through pride and arrogance that allow themselves to be overcome by the deception of Satan. Just as the serpent in the garden had convinced A&E they too could become as a god, Satan operates through the same deception convincing these spiritually fallen kings that they too through pride and arrogance had become as God.
Besides Ezekiel 28
15 From the day you were created
you were blameless in your ways—
until wickedness was found in you......which shows Satan was created blameless then wickedness was found in him...there is also Genesis 31 And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day......if Satan had fallen by day 6 then everything would not be good....in fact VERY GOOD.
In fact even the beast were good....you even posted scripture saying so. You used bold letters and underlined words.
Considering Satan was "good".....walked in the garden in an un-fallen state as a cherub...(an angelic living creature) clearly shows Satan was once a "good guy".....until he got into his I, I, I will mode in Isaiah 14...and fell.
Isaiah 14:12“How you are fallen from heaven,
O Day Star, son of Dawn!
How you are cut down to the ground,
you who laid the nations low!
13You said in your heart,
‘I will ascend to heaven;
above the stars of God
I will set my throne on high;
I will sit on the mount of assembly
in the far reaches of the north;c
14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.’
15But you are brought down to Sheol,
to the far reaches of the pit.
No, it shows mankind, which is the entire human race, ALL the natural seed of Adam was created blameless until wickedness was found in man. King Tyrus, belonging to mankind, like Adam in the beginning was created blameless, but like Adam, so too, king Tyrus, became wicked. How does the fact that mankind caused God's "very good" creation to become corrupted through wickedness make what God created "very good" not "very good" after all? Just because what God created very good became corrupted through prideful man does not mean everything God created was not in the beginning "very good" just as God tells us it was.
The passage NEVER says Satan was good in the garden of Eden in an un-fallen state as a cherub. Neither cherubim or Satan are called angelic as you imagine. Satan was never a "good guy" as you again imagine. If he were, God would not say Satan is a liar and murderer from the BEGINNING. The beginning at creation Satan is the father of lies. Because the Bible tells us that everything that God created in heaven, the earth and the sea were created in six days.
Exodus 20:11 (KJV) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Revelation 10:6 (KJV) And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
Satan was not good and then fell from his goodness and became evil. He is exactly what God created him to be "very subtil" that is cunning and crafty in a very bad sense. That's how the Bible describes the serpent, which is a metaphor for Satan.
The description is reflected in man...but the description isn't specifically of mankind...it speaks of Satan and who he is and was.
The description is of a supernatural being. The description is of a cherub.
The verse about Satan...presented as a type of Satan the King was... surely does.
Everything was created VERY GOOD....this would include Satan prior to his fall. Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14 speak of Satans fall.
Beginning ...can mean a specific time such as the first inning of a baseball game or the beginning of the game that was conceived of in the 1840's which took a few years to establish with the first professional team being formed in 1869.
That is the beginning can be expressed as a time period.
One could say the beginning of creation was day one or the beginning consisted of 7 days and a short time following the 7 days.
Yes, Satan fell in the beginning of our history.
You have no verse that speaks of Satan being created in an evil state...but there is a statement in the bible that everything was originally created as very good.
This is sheer speculation on your part.
You're not making sense! If the description reflects man, how is it not specifically mankind? It makes even less sense to argue the lamentation to be spoken to king Tyrus is about what shall befall the evil spirit called Satan??? A cherub is NOT a supernatural being, that too is illogical and makes even less sense.
If this were true how do you explain God calling him a murderer and liar from the BEGINNING? The spirit being; Satan, using the serpent to accomplish evil is also "very good" because God Himself takes credit for having creating both darkness and evil. And all that God created is pronounced "very good." Just because you can't understand how God uses evil to bring about good, doesn't mean all that God created was not "very good."
Genesis 50:20 (KJV) But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.
Sheeze rwb....mankind was never a cherub.
How is a cherub not a supernatural being?
Did God place an unfallen human to guard the entrance to the garden? Of course not. God placed a member of the created order of what we call "angels" there.
What's next...angels don't exist?
I've already explained it...
Beginning ...can mean a specific time such as the first inning of a baseball game or the beginning of the game that was conceived of in the 1840's which took a few years to establish with the first professional team being formed in 1869.
That is the beginning can be expressed as a time period.
One could say the beginning of creation was day one or the beginning consisted of 7 days and a short time following the 7 days.
Yes, Satan fell in the beginning of our history.
You have no verse that speaks of Satan being created in an evil state...but there is a statement in the bible that everything was originally created as very good.
The bible doesn't say God created evil.
Evil isn't "very good". Sorry. It's not really worth arguing with you on this topic.
OK????? So what?
The verse says YE thought evil against me....It doesn't say God thought evil against me.
What denomination teaches your nonsense?
It also says, "you were an anointed cherub" (Ezekiel 28:16), referring to Satan, who apparently was influencing the king.
The serpent was an animal, through which SataBn spoke. Eve was newly created and did not that animals do not talk.
Satan is a cherub (Ezekiel 28:14), not the only cherub, he walks the earth (Job 1:7), and he is insane (Isaiah 14:12-16).
Cherubim serve at the Throne of God in heaven (1Samuel 4:4).
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How would you know since you appear not to know what cherub/cherubim is or how it is defined?
All one has to do is read the creation account to understand how the serpent/Satan from the beginning of creation of mankind is a murderer and a liar. God calls him a murderer and a liar because both sin and death through sin came into creation through deception by Satan. In the beginning when God said to the man, "And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Both sin and death came into creation because Satan lied to the woman, deceiving her, and cunningly enticing her to eat of the forbidden tree, telling her she would not die, but would become as gods, that her eyes shall be opened and they would know good and evil.
Ge 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Ge 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
There was no death and evil in creation, until at creation when Satan, through the serpent deceptively caused both. That's how we know that Satan is a liar and murderer from the BEGINNING when God created mankind.
Here are a few verses that say otherwise. It has always been the plan of God from eternity to use evil and death to accomplish salvation. Consider the greatest evil to ever have come to the earth, the crucifixion of Christ was foreknown and ordained by God. Would you argue this great evil was not from God to bring about good; i.e. eternal salvation for His people?
Isaiah 45:7 (KJV) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Amos 3:6 (KJV) Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
Job 2:10 (KJV) But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.
Deuteronomy 32:39 (KJV) See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
Exodus 4:11 (KJV) And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?
Isaiah 54:16 (KJV) Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.
1 Samuel 16:14 (KJV) But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
Micah 1:12 (KJV) For the inhabitant of Maroth waited carefully for good: but evil came down from the LORD unto the gate of Jerusalem.
That's your opinion, and your welcome to embrace it, but you cannot argue that evil from God is not and has not been used for good. And in that way evil is indeed "very good" when it brings about the plans of God.
You display a very immature, childlike understanding of Scripture!
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No, this statement is not referring to Satan, but to a king under influence and power of his father, the Devil! The lamentation is directed to the prince/king, not an evil spirit. You will not find even the slightest hint the evil spirit; Satan was ever anointed. Where in the passage is the lamentation no longer directed to thou/thy/thee prince/king of Tyrus and directed to the evil spirit called Satan? Nowhere!
Ezekiel 28:2 (KJV) Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:
Eze 28:11 ¶ Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Eze 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
Eze 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
The serpent is said to be more cunning and crafty than any other beasts of the field being indwelt through the spirit of evil, called Satan. Are you imagining the serpent VERBALLY spoke to Eve?
Yes, many translations have translated "heavens". I don't find a problem with either.
This is the type of question one comes to expect from frustrated immature folks. When one is shown the doctrine, they support and defend is not supported from the Bible, but is being read into the Bible, they cannot attack the Bible, so they attack the messenger.
I ask because you have Satan as always being evil ...created evil...and never not being "good". Rather than the biblical view that Satan was created good, then fell when wickedness was found in him.
I would imagine next you'll be saying...Satan wasn't the blame for his evil but it was Gods fault for creating him in an evil state..so, because of that Satan won't be punished...or something like that.
Is there any denomination, authors, commentary, podcast??? that believes the way you do...or is this your own concept?
