Who’s words are these?

[David in NJ]

“John is as undeviating a witness as any in the New Testament to the fundamental tenet of Judaism, of unitary monotheism (cp. Rom. 3:30; James 2:19). There is the one true and only God (John 5:44; 17:3); everything else is idols (1 John 5:21). In fact nowhere is the Jewishness of John, which has emerged in all recent study, more clear.”

(J.A.T. Robinson, Twelve More New Testament Studies, p. 175)

John was and remained a monotheist. The only alternative is idolatry, and John is no idolator.

Jewish monotheism is contrary to Salvation = Acts 7:51-53


You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears!
You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.
Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute?
And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers,
who have received the law by the direction of angels and have not kept it.”

 

[David in NJ]

Not so. As I’ve demonstrated elsewhere, there is nothing in the passage which contradicts his / their / my monotheism.

ELOHIM is Plural = Genesis to Gospel to Revelation

The Apostle John KNEW and thus he wrote - John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

 

[Matthias]

Jewish monotheism is contrary to Salvation = Acts 7:51-53


You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears!
You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.
Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute?
And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers,
who have received the law by the direction of angels and have not kept it.”

You haven’t learned yet to distinguish between Jewish monotheists.

 

[David in NJ]

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Hear,
שְׁמַ֖ע‪‬ (šə·ma‘)
Verb - Qal - Imperative - masculine singular
Strong's Hebrew 8085: v 1) to hear, listen to, obey 1a) (Qal) 1a1) to hear (perceive by ear) 1a2) to hear of or concerning 1a3) to hear (have power to hear) 1a4) to hear with attention or interest, listen to 1a5) to understand (language) 1a6) to hear (of judicial cases) 1a7) to listen, give heed 1a7a) to consent, agree 1a7b) to grant request 1a8) to listen to, yield to 1a9) to obey, be obedient 1b) (Niphal) 1b1) to be heard (of voice or sound) 1b2) to be heard of 1b3) to be regarded, be obeyed 1c) (Piel) to cause to hear, call to hear, summon 1d) (Hiphil) 1d1) to cause to hear, tell, proclaim, utter a sound 1d2) to sound aloud (musical term) 1d3) to make proclamation, summon 1d4) to cause to be heard n m 2) sound

O Israel:
יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל (yiś·rā·’êl)
Noun - proper - masculine singular
Strong's Hebrew 3478: Israel = 'God prevails' 1) the second name for Jacob given to him by God after his wrestling with the angel at Peniel 2) the name of the descendants and the nation of the descendants of Jacob 2a) the name of the nation until the death of Solomon and the split 2b) the name used and given to the northern kingdom consisting of the 10 tribes under Jeroboam; the southern kingdom was known as Judah 2c) the name of the nation after the return from exile

The LORD
יְהוָ֥ה (Yah·weh)
Noun - proper - masculine singular
Strong's Hebrew 3068: Jehovah = 'the existing One' 1) the proper name of the one true God 1a) unpronounced except with the vowel pointings of H0136

our God,
אֱלֹהֵ֖ינוּ (’ĕ·lō·hê·nū)
Noun - masculine plural construct | first person common plural
Strong's Hebrew 430: 1) (plural) 1a) rulers, judges 1b) divine ones 1c) angels 1d) gods 2) (plural intensive-singular meaning) 2a) god, goddess 2b) godlike one 2c) works or special possessions of God 2d) the (true) God 2e) God

the LORD
יְהוָ֥ה ׀ (Yah·weh)
Noun - proper - masculine singular
Strong's Hebrew 3068: Jehovah = 'the existing One' 1) the proper name of the one true God 1a) unpronounced except with the vowel pointings of H0136

is One.
אֶחָֽד׃‪‬ (’e·ḥāḏ)
Number - masculine singular
Strong's Hebrew 259: 1) one (number) 1a) one (number) 1b) each, every 1c) a certain 1d) an (indefinite article) 1e) only, once, once for all 1f) one...another, the one...the other, one after another, one by one 1g) first 1h) eleven (in combination), eleventh (ordinal)

 

[Matthias]

ELOHIM is Plural = Genesis to Gospel to Revelation

If you actually knew Hebrew you would tell me that it is always plural in form, not always - in fact, seldom - plural in meaning. Ask for verification from a Hebrew language expert. (I’ve quoted several on this forum.)

The Apostle John KNEW and thus he wrote - John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Fully compatible with Jewish monotheism.

 

[Matthias]

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Hear,
שְׁמַ֖ע‪‬ (šə·ma‘)
Verb - Qal - Imperative - masculine singular
Strong's Hebrew 8085: v 1) to hear, listen to, obey 1a) (Qal) 1a1) to hear (perceive by ear) 1a2) to hear of or concerning 1a3) to hear (have power to hear) 1a4) to hear with attention or interest, listen to 1a5) to understand (language) 1a6) to hear (of judicial cases) 1a7) to listen, give heed 1a7a) to consent, agree 1a7b) to grant request 1a8) to listen to, yield to 1a9) to obey, be obedient 1b) (Niphal) 1b1) to be heard (of voice or sound) 1b2) to be heard of 1b3) to be regarded, be obeyed 1c) (Piel) to cause to hear, call to hear, summon 1d) (Hiphil) 1d1) to cause to hear, tell, proclaim, utter a sound 1d2) to sound aloud (musical term) 1d3) to make proclamation, summon 1d4) to cause to be heard n m 2) sound

O Israel:
יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל (yiś·rā·’êl)
Noun - proper - masculine singular
Strong's Hebrew 3478: Israel = 'God prevails' 1) the second name for Jacob given to him by God after his wrestling with the angel at Peniel 2) the name of the descendants and the nation of the descendants of Jacob 2a) the name of the nation until the death of Solomon and the split 2b) the name used and given to the northern kingdom consisting of the 10 tribes under Jeroboam; the southern kingdom was known as Judah 2c) the name of the nation after the return from exile

The LORD
יְהוָ֥ה (Yah·weh)
Noun - proper - masculine singular
Strong's Hebrew 3068: Jehovah = 'the existing One' 1) the proper name of the one true God 1a) unpronounced except with the vowel pointings of H0136

our God,
אֱלֹהֵ֖ינוּ (’ĕ·lō·hê·nū)
Noun - masculine plural construct | first person common plural
Strong's Hebrew 430: 1) (plural) 1a) rulers, judges 1b) divine ones 1c) angels 1d) gods 2) (plural intensive-singular meaning) 2a) god, goddess 2b) godlike one 2c) works or special possessions of God 2d) the (true) God 2e) God

the LORD
יְהוָ֥ה ׀ (Yah·weh)
Noun - proper - masculine singular
Strong's Hebrew 3068: Jehovah = 'the existing One' 1) the proper name of the one true God 1a) unpronounced except with the vowel pointings of H0136

is One.
אֶחָֽד׃‪‬ (’e·ḥāḏ)
Number - masculine singular
Strong's Hebrew 259: 1) one (number) 1a) one (number) 1b) each, every 1c) a certain 1d) an (indefinite article) 1e) only, once, once for all 1f) one...another, the one...the other, one after another, one by one 1g) first 1h) eleven (in combination), eleventh (ordinal)

The Lexical data confirms my point. Note, too, that this is the creed of Jewish monotheists, including Jesus and the apostles.

 

[David in NJ]

But to argue for a monotheistic God of apostate Jews as you do, is a denial that Jesus Christ, the Son of God is GOD Who has come to mankind in the flesh also denies the Spirit of God in us is of God. God alone gives eternal life through His Spirit to all who believe in His Son. Without the three who could be eternally saved? You clearly understand this truth but still you continue to argue for the monotheistic God of apostate Jews who argue for ONE God and deny He is Christ Jesus our Lord.

Without the THREE - no one could be saved!!!

 

[David in NJ]

If you actually knew Hebrew you would tell me that it is always plural in form, not always - in fact, seldom - plural in meaning. Ask for verification from a Hebrew language expert. (I’ve quoted several on this forum.)



Fully compatible with Jewish monotheism.

Apostle John counted THREE

Jewish monotheism is not the Gospel of Elohim

Without Echad Elohim Being THREE, no one could be Saved.

 

[Matthias]

Apostle John counted THREE

Jewish monotheism is not the Gospel of Elohim

Without Elohim Being THREE, no one could be Saved.

The apostle, like Jesus himself and all of the other apostles, is a Jewish monotheist.

Attacking monotheism is attacking Christianity.

The Gospel of Elohim / the Gospel of God - I really like that phrase - is the Gospel of the Kingdom that Jesus and the apostles preached.

 

[Matthias]

A good exercise; beneficial to everyone:

How many times does the Hebrew word elohim occur in the Old Testament / Hebrew Bible?

How many times is the Hebrew word elohim translated as plural in meaning in the Old Testament / Hebrew Bible?

How many times is the Hebrew word elohim translated as singular in meaning in the Old Testament / Hebrew Bible?

This is a slam dunk for monotheism. Prove it to yourself. It’s very easy to do.

 

[David in NJ]

The apostle, like Jesus himself and all of the other apostles, is a Jewish monotheist.

Attacking monotheism is attacking Christianity.

The Gospel of Elohim / the Gospel of God - I really like that phrase - is the Gospel of the Kingdom that Jesus and the apostles preached.

Unbelief, Jealousy and misunderstanding of the Scriptures(Jewish monotheism) have always attacked MESSIAH.

Then one of the lawyers answered and said to Him, “Teacher, by saying these things You reproach us also.”

46And He said, “Woe to you also, lawyers! For you load men with burdens hard to bear, and you yourselves do not touch the burdens with one of your fingers.
47Woe to you! For you build the tombs of the prophets, and your fathers killed them.
48In fact, you bear witness that you approve the deeds of your fathers; for they indeed killed them, and you build their tombs.
49Therefore the wisdom of God also said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they will kill and persecute,’
50that the blood of all the prophets which was shed from the foundation of the world may be required of this generation,
51from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah who perished between the altar and the temple.
Yes, I say to you, it shall be required of this generation.

52“Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge.
You did not enter in yourselves, and those who were entering in you hindered.”

53And as He said these things to them, the scribes and the Pharisees began to assail Him vehemently, and to cross-examine Him about many things, 54lying in wait for Him, and seeking to catch Him in something He might say, that they might accuse Him.

 

[Matthias]

Unbelief, Jealousy and misunderstanding of the Scriptures(Jewish monotheism) have always attacked MESSIAH.

Jewish monotheism never attacks the Messiah, himself a Jewish monotheist. The majority of Jewish monotheists have attacked and rejected Jesus; the minority of Jewish monotheists haven’t.

You haven’t learned to distinguish between believing and unbelieving Jewish monotheists. Lumping them together is just a fantasy born of ignorance. I believe when you take a step back, you’ll modify your thought.

Then one of the lawyers answered and said to Him, “Teacher, by saying these things You reproach us also.”

46And He said, “Woe to you also, lawyers! For you load men with burdens hard to bear, and you yourselves do not touch the burdens with one of your fingers.
47Woe to you! For you build the tombs of the prophets, and your fathers killed them.
48In fact, you bear witness that you approve the deeds of your fathers; for they indeed killed them, and you build their tombs.
49Therefore the wisdom of God also said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they will kill and persecute,’
50that the blood of all the prophets which was shed from the foundation of the world may be required of this generation,
51from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah who perished between the altar and the temple.
Yes, I say to you, it shall be required of this generation.

52“Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge.
You did not enter in yourselves, and those who were entering in you hindered.”

53And as He said these things to them, the scribes and the Pharisees began to assail Him vehemently, and to cross-examine Him about many things, 54lying in wait for Him, and seeking to catch Him in something He might say, that they might accuse Him.

 

[David in NJ]

Jewish monotheism never attacks the Messiah, himself a Jewish monotheist.

So you never read the Gospel of John, written by the Hebrew Apostle of MESSIAH?

“I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you.
38I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father.”

39They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”

Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41You do the deeds of your father.”

Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”

42Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

Then the Jews answered and said to Him, “Do we not say rightly that You are a Samaritan and have a demon?”

49Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me. 50And I do not seek My own glory; there is One who seeks and judges. 51Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death.”

52Then the Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon! Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word he shall never taste death.’ 53Are You greater than our father Abraham, who is dead? And the prophets are dead. Who do You make Yourself out to be?”

54Jesus answered, “If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is [o]your God. 55Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, ‘I do not know Him,’ I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word. 56Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”

57Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”

58Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

59Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going[p] through the midst of them, and so passed by.

 

[Matthias]

So you never read the Gospel of John, the Hebrew Apostle?

I’ve read it so many times that I’ve lost count. I’m currently reading it as part of my intensive Bible reading plan this year. (I’m reading chapters 20 & 21 daily for the next seven days.)

You know what I think would benefit you? Spending some time with the Jews For Jesus ministry. (I’ve rarely made that recommendation to anyone.)

“I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father.”

39They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”

Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41You do the deeds of your father.”

Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”

42Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

Then the Jews answered and said to Him, “Do we not say rightly that You are a Samaritan and have a demon?”

49Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me. 50And I do not seek My own glory; there is One who seeks and judges. 51Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death.”

52Then the Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon! Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word he shall never taste death.’ 53Are You greater than our father Abraham, who is dead? And the prophets are dead. Who do You make Yourself out to be?”

54Jesus answered, “If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is [o]your God. 55Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, ‘I do not know Him,’ I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word. 56Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”

57Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”

58Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

59Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going[p] through the midst of them, and so passed by.

 

[David in NJ]

I’ve read it so many times that I’ve lost count. I’m currently reading it as part of my intensive Bible reading plan this year. (I’m reading chapters 20 &21 daily for the next seven days.)

Dwell on John chapter 8 for tonight.

i fully understand why you say "Jewish monotheism"

Tomorrow, i will post Scripture which the Holy Spirit revealed to the Apostles how the word 'mono' is applied to Elohim/Plural.

SHALOM in ELOHIM = the THREE from Genesis

 

[Matthias]

Dwell on John chapter 8 for tonight.

It’s a fine suggestion but I have other things that I have to accomplish tonight. I recently spent a week reading, meditating, and studying the chapter.

i fully understand why you say "Jewish monotheism"

Do you now? I’d like to hear it.

Tomorrow, i will post Scripture which the Holy Spirit revealed to the Apostles how the word 'mono' is applied to Elohim/Plural.

If you do the exercise I suggested in post #210 you’ll find that elohim, when applied to the God of Israel, is always singular.

Elohim is always plural in form; seldom ever plural in meaning.

SHALOM in ELOHIM = the THREE from Genesis

Shalom in Elohim = the ONE God of the Bible; the Messiah’s elohim.

 

[Matthias]

Tomorrow, i will post Scripture which the Holy Spirit revealed to the Apostles how the word 'mono' is applied to Elohim/Plural.

A modest request: Please start a new thread on your topic. The topic of this thread is the Son of God speaking his Father’s words. It’s getting buried by your topic.

You could perhaps title it: “Rejecting monotheism”; or maybe “The apostles reject monotheism”. (Just a suggestion. It’s your thread. Title it anything you like.)