What is the atonement?

[markalan]

Man's definition of justice is payback
God's definition of justice is liberation from oppression, iow forgiveness.

Yes, God's justice is forgiveness through Jesus Christ, not because of our own merits.

God's wrath is to be understood as Paul aptly defines it in Romans 1.

In Romans 1, Paul defines God's wrath as His response to sin - enforcing His law and penalty

Romans 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men,
who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.

Romans 1:32
Though they know God’s righteous decree
that those who practice such things deserve to die,
they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them. (Romans 1:

If one chooses the definition of justice to mean payback, one either consciously or unconsciously chooses the methods of Satan. Now that's deception. It attributes to God the character of the Devil.

I would not define justice as "payback"
Justice is an attribute of God, just as surely as love is.
Sin cannot enter God's presence, so those who are still in sin when they die choose their own destiny.

 

[markalan]

And God Said…
While Father God remained unseen IN Heaven, and His Word remaineth In God, His Word would Be Sent TO Earth, in a prepared Body…
Called Gods Son, Gods Faithful, Gods Truth, Gods Power…Gods Offering of That Prepared Body, (with Blood)…for the Blood Life of All men…
WHO freely Choose Him.

Not sure I got all that you wrote but the part I quoted is something that I can see.

Non believers have a very hard time with the idea of a father punishing his son ... without grasping the concept Jesus expressed when He said "I and my Father are one".

 

[Taken]

Man's definition of justice is payback
God's definition of justice is liberation from oppression, iow forgiveness.

God's wrath is to be understood as Paul aptly defines it in Romans 1.

If one chooses the definition of justice to mean payback, one either consciously or unconsciously chooses the methods of Satan. Now that's deception. It attributes to God the character of the Devil.

I get your point…
“Justice “ has become “cheapened, frivolous in some respect by its WAY of a Mindful Thinker / Observer”

However… laying aside…
“ Fairness”…”Payback”…Just-ice”

VIA the “Spiritual” point…
Of… JUST…Of Morally RIGHT
The Picture is Bigger, than a tit for tat.

Ignoring the “Just-ice / Fairness”…
God IS JUST.
It IS Morally Right, Just… For God to Claim, Keep, Protect, the greatest most precious thing a man Has and Freely Gives TO God… cementing the man’s true Belief IN God…
Ie. speaking of a man Freely Giving his own Body unto Death For that mans true belief IN and Love FOR God…

Does God “repay” such man?
“ sort of “…
That it IS called… a Reward.

God bless you.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Lambano]

Even if one were to accept this as the best Biblical explanation, it leaves the question of how Jesus' physical death paid the penalty of our sin which is spiritual death.

When I see a phrase like "spiritual death", I get twitchy. What is "spiritual death"? Do we even have a spirit? What assumptions about Man's nature (body/soul/mind/spirit) are inherent in that concept? What's the difference between the human "soul" and "spirit"? Is the soul immortal? Can a spirit die? Why does the Bible and the Creeds talk about the "Resurrection of the body"?

(And to think I was recently accused of being "overly spiritual"!)

 

[quietthinker]

Yes, God's justice is forgiveness through Jesus Christ, not because of our own merits.



In Romans 1, Paul defines God's wrath as His response to sin - enforcing His law and penalty

Romans 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men,
who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.

Romans 1:32
Though they know God’s righteous decree
that those who practice such things deserve to die,
they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them. (Romans 1:



I would not define justice as "payback"
Justice is an attribute of God, just as surely as love is.
Sin cannot enter God's presence, so those who are still in sin when they die choose their own destiny.

If you do not/ can not see God's wrath as described in Romans 1 as consequence then you do not see it.
If you do not/ can not see 'God's justice' as forgiveness/ liberation then you do see 'justice' as payback contrary to your statement.

As an aside, here is something else to consider.....bouncing off your statement, 'sin cannot enter God's presence'......
1 Jesus walked with us in the presence of sin
2 God went looking for A&E after they had disobeyed him. He found them and interacted.
3 Abraham entertained and dialogued with God without any problems
How do we understand these events in the light of your statement?

 

[quietthinker]

I get your point…
“Justice “ has become “cheapened, frivolous in some respect by its WAY of a Mindful Thinker / Observer”

However… laying aside…
“ Fairness”…”Payback”…Just-ice”

VIA the “Spiritual” point…
Of… JUST…Of Morally RIGHT
The Picture is Bigger, than a tit for tat.

Ignoring the “Just-ice / Fairness”…
God IS JUST.
It IS Morally Right, Just… For God to Claim, Keep, Protect, the greatest most precious thing a man Has and Freely Gives TO God… cementing the man’s true Belief IN God…
Ie. speaking of a man Freely Giving his own Body unto Death For that mans true belief IN and Love FOR God…

Does God “repay” such man?
“ sort of “…
That it IS called… a Reward.

God bless you.

Glory to God,
Taken

I see it like this, larger humanity was trapped in the cycle of sin (violence against LIFE) through no choice of their own. I would guess that being born on this sinful planet was nobody's choice.....with all its attendant dysfunctions like Downs syndrome, Fetal alcohol syndrome, Retardation, Thalidomide babies etc etc.

Kicking a broken machine does not fix it......neither does kicking an unbroken machine fix the broken one (if you get the parallel)

Sin is its own executioner. It doesn't need an external (God) one to do its work.
God's justice is liberation from this oppression.....and liberation is forgiveness....for ALL. This sounds like good news to me. The individual, once they become aware of this, can/ will choose what to do with it......and consequence will run its own course.

 

[markalan]

When I see a phrase like "spiritual death", I get twitchy. What is "spiritual death"? Do we even have a spirit? What assumptions about Man's nature (body/soul/mind/spirit) are inherent in that concept? What's the difference between the human "soul" and "spirit"? Is the soul immortal? Can a spirit die? Why does the Bible and the Creeds talk about the "Resurrection of the body"?

(And to think I was recently accused of being "overly spiritual"!)

I think the easiest definition of "spiritual death" is eternal separation from God ... it is the antithesis of eternal life which God bestows on believers.

 

[markalan]

If you do not/ can not see God's wrath as described in Romans 1 as consequence then you do not see it.
If you do not/ can not see 'God's justice' as forgiveness/ liberation then you do see 'justice' as payback contrary to your statement.

"Payback" has the element of revenge ... which is not God's justice.
God has given humans free will to choose which door they walk through when they die.
In that sense, yes, God's wrath is "consequence".

Are you a universalist?

As an aside, here is something else to consider.....bouncing off your statement, 'sin cannot enter God's presence'......
1 Jesus walked with us in the presence of sin
2 God went looking for A&E after they had disobeyed him. He found them and interacted.
3 Abraham entertained and dialogued with God without any problems
How do we understand these events in the light of your statement?

God can descend to be with humans ... we cannot ascend into God's presence if we are still in sin.

 

[markalan]

"How does Jesus' physical death save us from the penalty for sin which is spiritual death?

I think the best answer I've read is that Jesus not only died for our sins, He conquered death and rose again.
He holds the "keys of "death and hell" (Rev 1:18).

1 Corinthians 15:19-22​

If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.​

But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.​

For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead.​

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.​

 

[quietthinker]

Are you a universalist?

Consequence, that's the sequence, not a magical fix or an arbitrary punishment.

 

[Lambano]

I think the easiest definition of "spiritual death" is eternal separation from God ... it is the antithesis of eternal life which God bestows on believers.

That assumes the immortality of the soul, or some similar concept. The theologians have been debating that for centuries. From what I see in the Bible, the wages of sin is Death, and the Christian hope is Resurrection to new Life.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings markalan,

I think the best answer I've read is that Jesus not only died for our sins, He conquered death and rose again.
He holds the "keys of "death and hell" (Rev 1:18).

Without getting too involved with all that has been stated, I tentatively agree with what you state above. To use technical terms, I believe that Jesus died as our representative, not our substitute, He came in fallen human nature so that he could through his sinless life conquer sin and its effects reversing the curse of death upon Adam and his descendants and through God's mercy and justice rise to immortality. We share in his death and resurrection when we affectionately believe what was accomplished in his death and resurrection and also we allow that affectionate belief to motivate us to identify in his death and resurrection by water baptism for the forgiveness of our sins.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[sondring7]

"How does Jesus' physical death save us from the penalty for sin which is spiritual death?

I think the best answer I've read is that Jesus not only died for our sins, He conquered death and rose again.
He holds the "keys of "death and hell" (Rev 1:18).

1 Corinthians 15:19-22​

If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.​

But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.​

For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead.​

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.​

.........He conquered death and rose again.
1 Cr15.1-4

 

[Taken]

When I see a phrase like "spiritual death", I get twitchy. What is "spiritual death"? Do we even have a spirit?

Hi Lambano-
Yes we have a “natural spirit”.

Our “Minds Truth” is… (logical, thinking, weighing between, this and that, what makes sense, what we believe at any given moment, gain more knowledge, constantly change what makes sense, “change our minds”, think, believe something differently…

And we have our “Hearts Truth”…which is:
“Our Natural Spirit”.
Our Hearts Truth…(natural spirit)…
* (is so to speak), not as loose and flippant as our Mind.
* it is “Our TRUE”, beliefs, we can keep private, secret, share intimately…
TRUE Beliefs, (that can absolutely be the opposite of / in conflict with our Minds Beliefs…)
* TRUE…Love from the Heart…we have for / of the Lord God, A spouse, children, close friends, etc.
* “Confessing” Belief IN, TO, the Lord God…
is “required to BE from One’s HEART…( to be a valid confession ).

Because the Carnal Mind IS naturally Against God. Rom. 8:7

Ever hear a person say…
They used to Believe…was (dipped / sprinkled Baptized )? WAS SAVED?
But now, doesn’t Believe?
And another saying, they were never saved to begin with?
^ That is true, because they “confessed with their Mind, not their Heart”.

scripture teaches… Test everything.
God tests our Love, Belief, our confessions, be it from our Mind only or our Heart.
Jer 27:10

When we Heartfully confess ( Natural True belief from our heart to the Lord God… we literally just Gave Him Permission…
To Plant His Seed, in our Natural Heart…
To Re- Birth our Natural Spirit (born of a mans seed..and men’s truths…)
To a supernatural Spirit, born of Gods Seed…
Called… the Spirit of Truth.
John 14:17
John 15:26
John 16:13
1 John 4:6

Then does such man have , 24-7, anytime, anyplace, direct access of “Spiritual” Communication with the Lord God.

God IS Spirit…
God HAS 7 Spirits…
Of His 7 Spirits, He gives one or several spirits to men, that they may be prepared to Serve The Lord God, in a fashion, that Glorifies Him.

As we say…
Lord God Almighty IS: One God.
Body, Soul, Spirit IS: One man.
A Glorified body, Restored / Saved soul and Quickened /Born Again spirit:
IS: One man Assured:
To be Eternally Alive
And
To be Eternally with the Lord God Almighty.
( the premise for OSAS ).

God bless you.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Lambano]

Instead of trying to figure out the mechanics of how the Atonement and Reconciliation, "works", it is more useful to contemplate what Christ's death and resurrection MEANS.

 

[Taken]

What's the difference between the human "soul" and "spirit"?

* ONCE …
a human body is “procreated of a mans seed”… “developing in the womb”… “Having its own natural bodily Life ( called BLOOD ),
“Delivered forth from the womb”…ie Born”…
* THEN…
Does that Bodily Life, receive “A Life” From God.
THAT Life is (Called a Soul, Called Gods Breath)…
THAT Soul AND Life Belongs to God, yet will be “identified”, by whatever Name that Body is given.
Gen 2:7
Ezek. 18:4

That soul, (activates, brings to Life…so to speak, specific parts of that born body…)
Eyes…….see
Mouth… utters sounds
Ears……. hear
Nose ….. smells
Tongue.. tastes
Flesh…… feels touch
^^^ All things that Gives that body a ways and means to Communicate.(even from the very birth)

Is the soul immortal?

Death IS the Absence of Life.
Some souls ( called “saved”)…shall eternally have, keep Gods Breath, in their soul.
Other souls (not saved)… Gods Breath “Life”, shall return to God, and the soul “destroyed”, by fire.

Can a spirit die?

Natural spirit, Natural truth in a man’s heart?
Yes… that spirit can die, and does die with its body.

God who IS Spirit…
Angels who ARE created spirits…
Men who HAVE born again spirits…
No… those spirits can NEVER Die.

Why does the Bible and the Creeds talk about the "Resurrection of the body"?

Because ALL “earthly…out from the Earth” bodies, (it’s Life/ Blood)shall, will, must Die…
* Required by God the Creator
Gen. 9:5

Since ALL souls Are Gods, With Gods Life (Breath)…All souls not “IN” departed out of a living Blood life, body…Believe in God.

A soul IN, a living (blood life) body may or may Not Believe, directed by the Life (blood) of its own living body.

Now… A tid bit…Gods anger, jealously, distain of men, with His soul IN them… men directing That soul to Reject God!
And Gods desire… that all men would “bodily choose to believe in Him….but do not…

HOW? And WHEN… will Gods desire … be accomplished…that all men’s body’s WILL Believe?

When? On Judgement Day…
And WHY the Resurrection of their Body’s, is necessary, for them to See their Judge…
the Unsaved “departed” souls are returned to their “risen (from the Grave TO Hell, where their departed unsaved soul is) Bloodless Body, And by the Soul in their “natural bloodless body”… they SEE, their Judge, THEN Believe And Bow down to Him.
Second Resurrection

WHY… is then fulfilled…
revealed here…—->

Rom 14:
[11] For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

And here “should”…is what the “saved soul Did” before his body (life Blood died…)
And those bodies raised Glorified ON Earth,
First Resurrection…


Phil 2:
[10] That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

[11] And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


It’s a step by step study… depending on choices any man makes while alive in his blood life body… before that life dies…

And we already Know… multiple individual men… live, die and make a whole gambit of choices before they bodily die.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Instead of trying to figure out the mechanics of how the Atonement and Reconciliation, "works", it is more useful to contemplate what Christ's death and resurrection MEANS.

Bottom line…For Man-Kind…
With or With-Out ,
Eternal Life With God,
Or
Eternal Death With-Out God.

 

[ShineTheLight]

Sin is its own executioner. It doesn't need an external (God) one to do its work.
God's justice is liberation from this oppression.....and liberation is forgiveness....for ALL. This sounds like good news to me. The individual, once they become aware of this, can/ will choose what to do with it......and consequence will run its own course.

Wrong. Sin is separation from God and being in bondage to sin is rebellion against to God. God only liberates someone when/if they confess and repent of their sins. Justice is what's given to those who do evil.