Satan and his demons are real beings/entities (with personalities) not abstract evil within unregenerate man

[PinSeeker]

The night and darkness are not the same.

No, they're not, I agree... <chuckles> And neither are night or darkness (if both are referred to literally) the same as evil, or evil at all. <smile> So you kinda make my point for me here, actually... <smile>

Night comes from the darkness, but the darkness did not come from the night. Darkness loves the night, and is most active in the night, because fallen man like the darkness of night which is natural to the night to hide their wicked deeds. But from the fall God says the whole world lies in darkness that is not natural and naturally of the night but is spiritual darkness that rules in the heart and mind of fallen man.

You're conflating two different things, RWB. Two different senses in which a thing is meant.

And I disagree with you regarding "night coming from darkness," I guess... <smile> But yet again, "darkness" ~ the absence of light ~ we can talk about very in two different senses... a.) literally speaking, when one hemisphere of earth is not facing the sun, when the sun is on the other side of the earth... <chuckles> ..., and b.) figuratively speaking, in reference to, yes, evil. You're conflating those two things.

God created mankind without them knowing good or evil.

I think you misunderstand what this knowledge is, RWB. It is not a cognitive thing only. And this is very important in several places in Scripture, here in Genesis 1 included. It is an intimate acquaintance with something, an attachment to it, and it can be spoken of regarding several things, including a man knowing his wife... which you should get... <smile>

...from the beginning of time in His plan to save creation God would use evil from the darkness to turn His people to the Light of eternal life that is found through Christ Jesus, the Saviour of the world.

Ugh. I mean I pretty much agree with you here, RWB, but... "use evil from the darkness"... I mean, yeah, as you cited before, "The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it" (John 1.5). And, Jesus is the light of the world," (John 8:12)... He has "overcome the world" (John 16:33). But this light is of a different sense entirely from when God says, in Genesis 1:3, "God said, “Let there be light." So it is with 'darkness' in Isaiah 45 and Genesis 1.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[rwb]

No, they're not, I agree... <chuckles> And neither are night or darkness (if both are referred to literally) the same as evil, or evil at all. <smile> So you kinda make my point for me here, actually... <smile>


You're conflating two different things, RWB. Two different senses in which a thing is meant.

And I disagree with you regarding "night coming from darkness," I guess... <smile> But yet again, "darkness" ~ the absence of light ~ we can talk about very in two different senses... a.) literally speaking, when one hemisphere of earth is not facing the sun, when the sun is on the other side of the earth... <chuckles> ..., and b.) figuratively speaking, in reference to, yes, evil. You're conflating those two things.


I think you misunderstand what this knowledge is, RWB. It is not a cognitive thing only. And this is very important in several places in Scripture, here in Genesis 1 included. It is an intimate acquaintance with something, an attachment to it, and it can be spoken of regarding several things, including a man knowing his wife... which you should get... <smile>


Ugh. I mean I pretty much agree with you here, RWB, but... "use evil from the darkness"... I mean, yeah, as you cited before, "The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it" (John 1.5). And, Jesus is the light of the world," (John 8:12)... He has "overcome the world" (John 16:33). But this light is of a different sense entirely from when God says, in Genesis 1:3, "God said, “Let there be light." So it is with 'darkness' in Isaiah 45 and Genesis 1.

Grace and peace to you.

This is all opinion without verification from the Scriptures. I too have opinions regarding biblical doctrines, but I try to support my opinions from the Bible. Only then can we discuss/debate how our opinions stack up against the Word of God. Discussing/debating opinions without biblical support becomes an exercise in futility.

 

[PinSeeker]

This is all opinion without verification from the Scriptures.

Goodness gracious. Well, okay, yes, there is no Scripture anywhere else that says "darkness in Genesis 1 is this (or that), and darkness in Isaiah 45 is this (or that)." Wow. If you say to me, "You can't verify what you are saying about those two passages from Scripture," well, fine, but I can say the exact same thing to you, RWB.

I too have opinions regarding biblical doctrines, but I try to support my opinions from the Bible.

Ah, and I don't, right?

<chuckles>

Yeah so, "support my opinions from the Bible"... Right, me, too, but that's not really even relevant to what we're discussing. We're not debating whether Genesis 1 or Isaiah 45 are accurate or true or not ~ of course they both are ~ but only (although it's not just some mere thing) the sense in which you and or I understand the sense of a very particular thing... 'darkness' .... whether 'darkness' is to be understood in one sense and/or the other in the two passages comparitively. But again, neither one of us can really "verify from Scripture" what to do with 'darkness' in either passage... it's really kind of ridiculous to frame it that way at all. But still, it is what it is... and you and I have a different opinion regarding that one very particular thing, and that's okay... there's no need for any backhanded insults.

Only then can we discuss/debate how our opinions stack up against the Word of God. Discussing/debating opinions without biblical support becomes an exercise in futility.

<sigh> Again... irrelevant, really, RWB, to what we have discussed here. See above. Discussing or debating anything while remaining so... well, hard-headed... is the futile exercise. <smile> I have only said that there are two ways to understand what we read in Genesis 1 and Isaiah 45 regarding "darkness." Which is true... Even on just the most rudimentary level, we can understand 'darkness' thusly:

• figuratively, as a metaphor for evil (or lack of knowledge) and opposite to 'light' when used as a metaphor for good (or knowledge)

Or:

• literally, so literal darkness, which we have at night, when whatever hemisphere of this planet we are in spins away from the sun and opposite to light when the sun is visible overhead... during the day.

So, yet again, the 'darkness' of Genesis 1 is the latter ~ okay, fine, all well and good... in my opinion ~ and the 'darkness' of Isaiah 45 is the former. And I would say the context of both passages individually verify that. Genesis 1 is the Creation narrative (again, God's "very good" Creation, which of course includes the day and night, created on the first day), for crying out loud... <smile> ... and the whole of Isaiah's prophecy is filled with imagery and metaphors throughout... again for crying out loud <smile>. But, you disagree... your opinion differs. Okay. Cool. Goodness gracious.

I will say, though, one more time... <chuckles> ...that John, in His gospel ~ which is much different than the synoptic gospels (Matthew, Mark, and Luke) ~ does go back to Creation... not literally, of course <smile> ...and from the beginning (and I mean that in a couple of different ways) uses it to begin speaking of Jesus, Who of course is "(t)he true Light, which gives light to everyone..." This is his very purpose in writing his gospel, as he says explicitly in John 20:31, "...so that (we) may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing (we) may have life in His name."

Grace and peace to you, RWB.

 

[WPM]

When God spoke His Light into the darkness it was to separate the spiritual darkness from the spiritual Light of God. Natural darkness for what God called "night" or natural darkness of night, did not exist until day four when God placed lights (sun, moon, stars) in the heaven to divide day from night (not darkness) after forming from the dry ground, the earth on the third day. The greater light, the sun to rule day and the lesser light, the moon to rule the night, the stars also.

Genesis 1:10 (KJV) And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:13 (KJV) And the evening and the morning were the third day.

Ge 1:14 ¶ And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Ge 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
Ge 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
Ge 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
Ge 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: [of the night] and God saw that it was good.
Ge 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
Gen 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
Gen 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
Gen 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
Gen 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
Gen 1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Gen 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
Gen 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
Gen 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
Gen 1:23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
Gen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
Gen 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Gen 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

God is talking in Genesis 1 about the natural physical realm. The context is the creation of the visible order: “the heaven” and “the earth,” “the deep” and “the face of the waters.” These are physical realities. God created the day/night dynamic on day one by separated the physical light from the darkness.

 

[WPM]

When God spoke His Light into the darkness it was to separate the spiritual darkness from the spiritual Light of God. Natural darkness for what God called "night" or natural darkness of night, did not exist until day four when God placed lights (sun, moon, stars) in the heaven to divide day from night (not darkness) after forming from the dry ground, the earth on the third day. The greater light, the sun to rule day and the lesser light, the moon to rule the night, the stars also.

Genesis 1:10 (KJV) And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:13 (KJV) And the evening and the morning were the third day.

Ge 1:14 ¶ And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Ge 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
Ge 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
Ge 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
Ge 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: [of the night] and God saw that it was good.
Ge 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

The first thing God did at the beginning was create light on the first day to separate between light and darkness. Genesis 1:3-5 says: “And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.”

As a harbinger, preamble, or a fleeting foretaste and preparative arrangement to the creation of the two great “astronomical clocks” – the sun and the moon – on the 4th day, God created light to generate a division between day and night. The purpose of this was to usher in what was about to come. Whether this light was simply God Himself shining or something else He created that produced the light, whether it was temporal or eternal, it does not say, but the division of light and darkness very definitely introduced day and night, and therefore an accurate and orderly gauge of time.

This was indeed a precursor of things to come. Without this there was no way of separating one day from another, and even having a morning and evening. How that looked, we do not get much detail in Scripture. It was obviously a temporary and provisional arrangement (for 3 days) which prefigured and preceded the function of the sun and moon, which would ultimately divide day from night and determine time. This was brief and interim, because the calendar and time is shown in Scripture to be determined by the sun and moon.

Augustine concedes: “We see that our ordinary days have no evening but by the setting [of the sun] and no morning but by the rising of the sun, but the first three days of all were passed without sun, since it is reported to have been made on the fourth day. And first of all, indeed, light was made by the Word of God, and God, we read, separated it from the darkness and called the light ‘day’ and the darkness ‘night’; but what kind of light that was, and by what periodic movement it made evening and morning, is beyond the reach of our senses; neither can we understand how it was and yet must unhesitatingly believe it” (The City of God, Book 11, Chapter 7).

Of course, God gave the sun, moon and stars to give physical light to the earth. But they were also given to measure the progression of time. These brought distinct order, systematic structure and identifiable chronology. It is from this that we get classifiable years, months, days, hours and seconds. God created time (past, present, and future) to provide order to our lives and be a means of measuring change and duration. How else could we mark events that occur or chronicle history?

Genesis 1:14-18: “And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.”

The sun and moon were created to provide light, measure the progression of time, give man reliable structure and maintain order. Time revolves around day and night, and is determined by the movements of the earth, sun, and moon. Earth's rotation dictates our days, its orbit around the sun defines our years, and the moon's orbit around earth influences our months.

This is a product of the earth circling the sun, while, at the same time, rotating on its own axis. It takes a little more than 365 days for the earth to make a complete trip around the sun.

God has created natural forces in the solar system to keep the earth, and the other planets, locked into predictable orbits around the sun. This in turn produces identifiable order and regularity.

The Bible makes clear: just like there was a beginning to time (with the creation of light and the creation of the sun and moon), so there will be an end of time.

 

[sondring7]

The first thing God did at the beginning was create light on the first day to separate between light and darkness. Genesis 1:3-5 says: “And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.”

As a harbinger, preamble, or a fleeting foretaste and preparative arrangement to the creation of the two great “astronomical clocks” – the sun and the moon – on the 4th day, God created light to generate a division between day and night. The purpose of this was to usher in what was about to come. Whether this light was simply God Himself shining or something else He created that produced the light, whether it was temporal or eternal, it does not say, but the division of light and darkness very definitely introduced day and night, and therefore an accurate and orderly gauge of time.

This was indeed a precursor of things to come. Without this there was no way of separating one day from another, and even having a morning and evening. How that looked, we do not get much detail in Scripture. It was obviously a temporary and provisional arrangement (for 3 days) which prefigured and preceded the function of the sun and moon, which would ultimately divide day from night and determine time. This was brief and interim, because the calendar and time is shown in Scripture to be determined by the sun and moon.

Augustine concedes: “We see that our ordinary days have no evening but by the setting [of the sun] and no morning but by the rising of the sun, but the first three days of all were passed without sun, since it is reported to have been made on the fourth day. And first of all, indeed, light was made by the Word of God, and God, we read, separated it from the darkness and called the light ‘day’ and the darkness ‘night’; but what kind of light that was, and by what periodic movement it made evening and morning, is beyond the reach of our senses; neither can we understand how it was and yet must unhesitatingly believe it” (The City of God, Book 11, Chapter 7).

Of course, God gave the sun, moon and stars to give physical light to the earth. But they were also given to measure the progression of time. These brought distinct order, systematic structure and identifiable chronology. It is from this that we get classifiable years, months, days, hours and seconds. God created time (past, present, and future) to provide order to our lives and be a means of measuring change and duration. How else could we mark events that occur or chronicle history?

Genesis 1:14-18: “And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.”

The sun and moon were created to provide light, measure the progression of time, give man reliable structure and maintain order. Time revolves around day and night, and is determined by the movements of the earth, sun, and moon. Earth's rotation dictates our days, its orbit around the sun defines our years, and the moon's orbit around earth influences our months.

This is a product of the earth circling the sun, while, at the same time, rotating on its own axis. It takes a little more than 365 days for the earth to make a complete trip around the sun.

God has created natural forces in the solar system to keep the earth, and the other planets, locked into predictable orbits around the sun. This in turn produces identifiable order and regularity.

The Bible makes clear: just like there was a beginning to time (with the creation of light and the creation of the sun and moon), so there will be an end of time.

++++The first thing God did at the beginning was .......
Gen 1.1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

 

[Jay Ross]

When God spoke His Light into the darkness it was to separate the spiritual darkness from the spiritual Light of God. Natural darkness for what God called "night" or natural darkness of night, did not exist until day four when God placed lights (sun, moon, stars) in the heaven to divide day from night (not darkness) after forming from the dry ground, the earth on the third day. The greater light, the sun to rule day and the lesser light, the moon to rule the night, the stars also.

Genesis 1:10 (KJV) And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:13 (KJV) And the evening and the morning were the third day.

Ge 1:14 ¶ And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Ge 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
Ge 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
Ge 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
Ge 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: [of the night] and God saw that it was good.
Ge 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

The is my paraphrasing of Chapter one of Genesis.




Shalom

 

[rwb]

The is my paraphrasing of Chapter one of Genesis.

Shalom

I'm not sure what point you're making. In the beginning darkness was all that existed when God said, "Let there be light". God, seeing the light was good divided the light from the darkness. God called the light day and the darkness He called night - evening and morning first day.

The point I've been making is that even though this is called evening and morning and the first day, this cannot be natural light and darkness that would give light (daytime, dawn to dusk) and less light (nighttime, dusk to dawn) because God did not create the sun, moon, and stars to give natural light upon the earth until day 4.

In the beginning there was only earth without form and void, covered in darkness, and emptiness until God spoke light into the darkness. The thing I am focused on is the darkness that was already there BEFORE God said, "Let there be light." The question is where did the darkness come from, why was it there?

I believe the Bible is not silent about the darkness and tells us where the darkness came from, and even why it existed before anything else God says He created in six days. God's presence was and always is in the darkness. Throughout Scripture darkness that is not from the sun, moon and stars is a symbol for sin and evil. I believe in the beginning when there was nothing, God metaphorically speaks of the darkness in this sense.

Isaiah 45:7 (KJV) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

The prophet Isaiah writes that God creates darkness and evil, showing that darkness is always opposed to the light and evil always opposed to peace. God knowing there would always be tension between darkness and light and evil and peace that are derived from them, why did God only divide the darkness from the light in the beginning? Why did He not simply destroy the darkness, leaving only His spoken light?

Could the answer be in the fact that God created mankind without the knowledge of good or evil? And also, what about the fact that the plan of God to save a people for Himself was ordained in heaven before the foundation of the world, God promising a Lamb that would be slain to take away the sin of the world?

Tension with the OP arises in asking these questions because it is commonly taught and believed from long ago that the reason there is darkness and evil in this world is because Satan was created to be a good angel, some even say the highest angel of God, but that he usurped God's authority, wanting to become God and became the evil spirit called Satan. If God Himself creates darkness and evil opposing light and peace, the myth these came from Satan is destroyed.

Many in the church today cannot accept that God creates both darkness and evil to bring about good. The goal being, mankind must experience darkness and evil before they might know the only way for them to live forever with true peace that comes only from God is for them to submit to God. Mankind learns that lesson from the fall, and whosoever from among mankind willingly submitting to God through Christ is promised Light and life with Him forever.

 

[Jay Ross]

I'm not sure what point you're making.

The phrase, "In the beginning," I simply changed to "First" because God existed and He first created the earth and the heavens.

Following God's creation of the earth there are six recorded statements that God made which were fulfilled over six periods of time which are described as "yôm", but on the fourth day when God put the sun and the moon in place to give us day and night, the day in the Hebrew is "bayyôm". The day and the night which we experience daily was created during the fourth "yôm".

What my take on the creation is that the Lord God almighty existed before He started the creation process of modifying the Heavens and the Earth over six distinct periods of time into which He place mankind to live in.

From the very beginning "evil" existed and darkness covered/hid the entrance to the abyss; but God's spirit covered the "sea".

What we construct in our delving into the mysteries of God and His purposes falls into two outcomes. We can choose to inherit the whole earth in its refurbished form, or we can choose to turn away from our Creator and become a candidate for the Second Death in our own wisdom.

We are responsible for the choice that we make, and we are given during our lifetime, many opportunities to choose God and to only worship Him.

We can choose the creator and live or the destroyer, who is Satan/Devil and die the Second Death.

I have chosen to worship my Creator, and I trust Him with my life.

Shalom

 

[rwb]

The phrase, "In the beginning," I simply changed to "First" because God existed and He first created the earth and the heavens.

Following God's creation of the earth there are six recorded statements that God made which were fulfilled over six periods of time which are described as "yôm", but on the fourth day when God put the sun and the moon in place to give us day and night, the day in the Hebrew is "bayyôm". The day and the night which we experience daily was created during the fourth "yôm".

What my take on the creation is that the Lord God almighty existed before He started the creation process of modifying the Heavens and the Earth over six distinct periods of time into which He place mankind to live in.

From the very beginning "evil" existed and darkness covered/hid the entrance to the abyss; but God's spirit covered the "sea".

What we construct in our delving into the mysteries of God and His purposes falls into two outcomes. We can choose to inherit the whole earth in its refurbished form, or we can choose to turn away from our Creator and become a candidate for the Second Death in our own wisdom.

We are responsible for the choice that we make, and we are given during our lifetime, many opportunities to choose God and to only worship Him.

We can choose the creator and live or the destroyer, who is Satan/Devil and die the Second Death.

I have chosen to worship my Creator, and I trust Him with my life.

Shalom

I don't find where "first" or "in the beginning" are opposed. I simply understand that when God first created the heavens and the earth marked the beginning of all that would follow within the next five creation days, the beginning of every generation to follow.

I don't find any verses to prove or disprove six distinct periods of time, although I agree the Lord God Almighty has always been. The Bible indicates that eternal God is from everlasting to everlasting, the beginning and the end. God has always existed, transcending time and creation. He is eternal, unchanging, and sovereign, existing before the universe and continuing forever. This eternal nature is foundational to Christian faith, giving us assurance of God’s unending presence, power, and faithfulness.

I also agree that evil existed from the beginning, hidden by the utter darkness that covered the deep (abyss?). And that God is the Creator of darkness and evil, and always with His people as we walk through the darkness of this world.

Since I believe in election/predestination, I believe the ultimate choosing who shall have eternal life or who will or will not be born again through Christ is of God. For He shall save His people from their sins.

Thank you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Sorry but I don't agree that Gen 1 is well before Gen 3. While I will acknowledge the Bible does not specifically say how much time after creation and the fall had elapsed. I think Answers in Genesis give a pretty good explanation that I believe plausible.

"Genesis 1 describes the first six days of this world’s existence. In that time God created the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1). He brought forth vegetation, animals, and finally, man and woman (Genesis 1:26). On the sixth day God saw that all He had made was “very good” (Genesis 1:31), and on the seventh day He rested “from all His work” and “blessed and sanctified it” (Genesis 2:2–3).

These verses allow a couple of conclusions: Adam could not have sinned on the sixth day because God declared all things good. Nor is it likely that the Fall occurred on Day Seven, for this day was consecrated. How long, then? For several reasons, it seems likely that only a short time passed.

God created the man and woman with perfect bodies before the Fall. Some argue that this perfect state would have allowed conception to occur quickly and without hindrance, yet Eve’s conception and birth of her first child, Cain, is not described until after the Fall (Genesis 4:1). One may speculate that, had much time elapsed between Creation and the Fall, the woman would have conceived children before falling victim to Satan’s devices.


Based on his pattern elsewhere, we would expect that the Great Deceiver probably wasted little time before seizing an opportunity to question and distort God’s words. Since God declared all things good in Genesis 1:31, Satan’s rebellion probably occurred after the sixth day and certainly before the events of Genesis 3. Just as he challenged God’s authority in heaven, he also challenged the authority of God’s words on earth, and led the woman to doubt and disobey her Creator. Surely Satan sought to undermine God’s work as early as possible, before man had time to grow in trust and obedience toward God.

While the Bible allows for some plausible conclusions on the matter, we must be careful with speculation. Rather than dwelling on those details God chose not to reveal, a Christian’s time is better spent learning the deep truths of Scripture that are revealed for our growth and God’s glory (Deuteronomy 29:29)."

The only part of this explanation that I do not agree with I've high-lighted above. Because I don't believe Satan once good angel in heaven that rebelled against God.

Answers in Genesis is correct as are millions of other Christians when we say that Satan was once a good angel who rebelled against God. Genesis 1:31 is explicitly clear that everything God created was very good. Do you not believe that God created Satan? If you do believe that, then how can you believe that Satan was evil from the beginning when everything God created was very good?

I believe the spirit of darkness wasted very little time influencing the mind of the woman, causing her to doubt God and His word. Because God tells us that from the beginning (creation) Satan is a murderer and liar, and the father of lies. (Jo 8:44)

From the beginning of HUMANITY Satan was a murderer and a liar, not from the beginning of his existence. He existed already before Adam and Eve were created. Do you disagree? If not, then how could Satan have been a murderer before influencing Cain to murder Abel? Before God created Adam and Eve he could not be a murderer yet. And he was a liar in the sense of lying to HUMANS and deceiving them.

If much time passed after creation before the fall, why is Satan said to be a murderer and a liar from the beginning? This is proven truth since it was the beginning shortly after creation that this spirit of evil comes from the darkness to deceive the woman and cause sin and death through sin to be introduced into creation.

When do you think Satan was created in relation to Adam and Eve? It does not say he was a murderer and a liar from the beginning of his existence. He existed already before Adam and Eve did. He was a murderer and a liar from the beginning of humanity because he had already rebelled against God by the time he started interacting with Adam and Eve.

Satan was the leader of the angels who left their first estate and left their own habitation (heaven) and rebelled against God and now are reserved for condemnation on judgment day. This should not be hard to understand and a vast majority of Christians do understand this, but you deny it, anyway.

Jude 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

When God spoke His Light into the darkness it was to separate the spiritual darkness from the spiritual Light of God. Natural darkness for what God called "night" or natural darkness of night, did not exist until day four when God placed lights (sun, moon, stars) in the heaven to divide day from night (not darkness) after forming from the dry ground, the earth on the third day. The greater light, the sun to rule day and the lesser light, the moon to rule the night, the stars also.

Genesis 1:10 (KJV) And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:13 (KJV) And the evening and the morning were the third day.

Ge 1:14 ¶ And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Ge 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
Ge 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
Ge 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
Ge 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: [of the night] and God saw that it was good.
Ge 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

Wrong. That passage relates specifically to the planet EARTH, not the entire universe. That passage is not saying there was no natural light at all anywhere in the universe before God created the sun, the moon and the stars that affect planet EARTH.

Read this...

Genesis 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Why would you think that spiritual light and darkness would be referred to as day and night and as the morning and the evening? That's not reasonable at all. Only natural light and darkness would be referred to as day and night and as the morning and the evening.

 

[PinSeeker]

Regarding the statement, "When God spoke His Light into the darkness it was to separate the spiritual darkness from the spiritual Light of God"... Yeah, so, agreed (with SI); that is not right. God created everything... even night and darkness... evening... "very good," as He Himself pronounced it at the end of Genesis 1. We can use this separation of light and darkness in a metaphorical sense regarding the absolute separation of good and evil... and that is what's done throughout the Bible, but that is not applicable to the light and darkness or the separation of day and night in Genesis 1.

This is true: "We are responsible for the choice that we make..." but so is this: "...the ultimate choosing who shall have eternal life or who will or will not be born again through Christ is of God." Human choice regarding salvation is always in the context of God's choice, which is from before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-5), of who to include among His elect (Romans 9). And what God does for these people is, in His mercy and compassion, His saving grace (Ephesians 2:8), which He has upon some and not upon others (Exodus 33:19, Romans 9:14-18), change the heart of the person, or give him/her a new spirit (Ezekiel 11:19-20, 36:25-27), even His Holy Spirit so that then he/she is compelled in and of himself/herself to choose Him... because he or she is then of God rather than of the devil, and his/her will is to do the will of his/her Father (God) rather than his/her former father, the devil (John 6:37, 8:44-47)

Now. <smile> This is a really good read: Where did Satan come from?

Grace and peace to all.

 

[WPM]

I don't find where "first" or "in the beginning" are opposed. I simply understand that when God first created the heavens and the earth marked the beginning of all that would follow within the next five creation days, the beginning of every generation to follow.

I don't find any verses to prove or disprove six distinct periods of time, although I agree the Lord God Almighty has always been. The Bible indicates that eternal God is from everlasting to everlasting, the beginning and the end. God has always existed, transcending time and creation. He is eternal, unchanging, and sovereign, existing before the universe and continuing forever. This eternal nature is foundational to Christian faith, giving us assurance of God’s unending presence, power, and faithfulness.

I also agree that evil existed from the beginning, hidden by the utter darkness that covered the deep (abyss?). And that God is the Creator of darkness and evil, and always with His people as we walk through the darkness of this world.

Since I believe in election/predestination, I believe the ultimate choosing who shall have eternal life or who will or will not be born again through Christ is of God. For He shall save His people from their sins.

Thank you.

Gen 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

What are cherubims? Human prophets or supernatural Angels? This again forbids your thesis. Only Adam and Eve existed at this juncture. There were no other humans alive according to the inspired text.

Psa 99:1 The LORD reigneth; let the people tremble: he sitteth between the cherubims; let the earth be moved.

Eze 11:22 Then did the cherubims lift up their wings, and the wheels beside them; and the glory of the God of Israel was over them above.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Gen 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

What are cherubims? Human prophets or supernatural Angels? This again forbids your thesis. Only Adam and Eve existed at this juncture. There were no other humans alive according to the inspired text.

Psa 99:1 The LORD reigneth; let the people tremble: he sitteth between the cherubims; let the earth be moved.

Eze 11:22 Then did the cherubims lift up their wings, and the wheels beside them; and the glory of the God of Israel was over them above.

Cherubims are very clearly supernatural beings. He refuses to address how nonsensical it is to think that any human would be called the anointed cherubim who covered (protected) the mountain (kingdom) of God and was created perfect in his ways. The reason he believes what he does is because of his denial of the existence of free will. He can't allow for the possibility that the angels had free will and freely chose to rebel against God. So, because of that, he thinks that God created them to be evil and rebellious against Him. But, it's absolutely insane to think that God purposely did that. If that was the case then why did God cast them out of heaven and why are they reserved for judgment and punishment on judgment day (Jude 6, 2 Peter 2:4)? If they were created to be evil then they are just doing what God created them to do. Why would they be punished for that?