In Mark 16:15-16, belief and baptized are inextricably linked together by the conjunction and. Both are required not one or the other, but both.
IS THERE ONLY WATER BAPTISM?
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mailmandan
Well-Known Member
The second clause clarifies the first so the core requirement for condemnation focuses solely on unbelief. If baptism was an absolute requirement for salvation on par with belief, then the second clause would logically read "he who does not believe and is not baptized will be condemned," but the verse intentionally omits baptism as a cause for condemnation. Belief is what saves (just as Jesus said in John 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11:25,26). Baptism is an outward sign of that inner belief rather than the mechanism that secures salvation.
If you don't believe, baptism is a moot point. Baptism is required of the believer and has nothing whatsoever with the non-believer. It makes ZERO sense to insinuate orherwise.
Jesus said, he that believeth and is baptized will be saved.
Both are commanded.
To claim Jesus only requires one of His commandments and not the other is wild speculation.
Mark 16:16,
he - subject.
that believeth- a relative clause describing the person, the one who believes.
and is baptized- another predicate connected to the same subject by " and" .
shall be saved- the result/predicate promised to that person.
Grammatically the person who is described as believing and being baptized is the person to whom the promise "shall be saved" is attached.
Teaching he that believeth is saved then baptized is a perversion of the text.
Both are commanded.
To claim Jesus only requires one of His commandments and not the other is wild speculation.
Mark 16:16,
he - subject.
that believeth- a relative clause describing the person, the one who believes.
and is baptized- another predicate connected to the same subject by " and" .
shall be saved- the result/predicate promised to that person.
Grammatically the person who is described as believing and being baptized is the person to whom the promise "shall be saved" is attached.
Teaching he that believeth is saved then baptized is a perversion of the text.
The teaching that baptism is an outward sign or symbol of those who are already saved is never taught in scripture.
Nowhere is baptism said to symbolize those already saved.
Baptism in Jesus name is spoken of scripturally as,
1Peter 3:20-21,
- the like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us
Acts 2:38,
- repent and be baptized...for the forgiveness of sins...
Acts 22:16,
- Arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins...
You will not find one verse that says forgiveness of sins, washed of ones sins comes before baptism.
Nowhere is baptism said to symbolize those already saved.
Baptism in Jesus name is spoken of scripturally as,
1Peter 3:20-21,
- the like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us
Acts 2:38,
- repent and be baptized...for the forgiveness of sins...
Acts 22:16,
- Arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins...
You will not find one verse that says forgiveness of sins, washed of ones sins comes before baptism.
Someone's playing in the bathtub, again.
From the OP:
Worldwide, churches of all shapes and sizes teach people to be baptized in water. It's hard to get two of them to agree on exactly how it's supposed to be done,
whether you baptize in the name of Jesus, or in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost;
whether you sprinkle or pour water on people, or dunk them in the water;
whether it's done in a pool inside a church, or in a river;
who does it;
what the person doing it needs to believe in order for it to be valid;
whether you tip the person backward, or forward, when putting them under the water;
how old the person needs to be before you can baptize them;
what to do if the person backslides after being baptized;
whether the Holy Spirit comes into a person before, during, or after the water baptism...
The list goes on and on. There have been more divisions in the church over water baptism than over any other teaching in the Holy Bible or out of it.
Paul is the first person to have seen through this confusion to the truth behind it.
People were arguing over who had baptized them. Paul had baptized only a small handful of people, but soon realized that Jesus never meant for us to baptize people in water:
For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chl-oe that there are contentions among you. Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were you baptized in the name of Paul? I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. (1 Cor. 1:11-17).
Here's another oft-missed clue [comments added]:
And [Jesus] said unto [his disciples], Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized [in the Spirit, NOT water baptized] shall be saved; but he that believeth not [where is "water baptized"?] shall be damned [IOW, belief results in spiritual baptism unto salvation; unbelief results in damnation (water baptism is not repeated because it is now irrelevant)]...And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word [NOT confirming water baptisms] with signs following. Amen. (Mark 16:15-16, 20).
The understanding of baptism has been messed up and distorted from antiquity. The result has been not unlike the parable of the sower, where two different seeds were sown but only one produced fruit. And such rituals of men are easy to fake. There is something far more satisfying than being dunked in water. God says that he wants obedience more than sacrifice (1 Sa. 15:22)
Water baptism was a Jewish ritual, a Hebrew practice. There is nothing uniquely Christian about water baptism. The disciples did baptize in water, but Jesus did not do it (John 4:2). Water baptism is inconsistent with the Spirit of everything else that Jesus taught. Most of Jesus' enemies were circumcised; most were water baptized!
...I [John] indeed baptize you [the multitude] with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire (Luke 3:16).
What of Jesus' baptism? John protested:
But John forbade [Jesus], saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? (Mat. 3:14).
Jesus was the perfect spotless Lamb of God; he didn't need his sins washed away. Rather, Jesus asked John to accommodate him, because it made sense for them "to fulfill all righteousness". So John went ahead and baptized Jesus. The end of the old, and the start of the new.
So what does "to fulfill all righteousness" mean?
Well, Jesus was born into a Jewish family; circumcised at 8 days of age; taken to the temple at 12 years of age; raised in all the disciplines of the Jewish religion. And now he does this one final Jewish ritual, marking the end of his Jewishness and the start of a deeper revelation.
Jesus came to replace, fulfill, render useless, the law of Moses:
The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it (Luke 16:16). Out with the old, in with the new.
There is only one Lord, one faith, and one baptism via the Holy Ghost!
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body... (1 Cor. 12:13).
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen. (Mat. 28:18-20).
What are the action words in that passage (v. 19)?
There are only two action words = go and preach. When the disciples obey the commands to go and to preach, then the result is that people get baptized and taught. The disciples are NOT told to water baptize anyone. Rather, baptizing is what takes place EVERY TIME someone receives the truth of what is preached.
So baptism is never a one-off. Baptizing happens to someone EVERY TIME he receives the truth.
actions of men = go and preach;
results of Holy Spirit = taught and baptized
* preaching the gospel = baptizing *
Also, in that cited passage above (Mat. 28:19), it is WE who make yet another ASSUMPTION; we "just add water" i.e. we ASSUME that the "baptism" spoken of is of water!!! (...and the usage by Greek-o-philes of corrupt Greek lex-icons furthers that assumption.)
Another assumption was that speaking in tongues was of the Holy Spirit whereas the reality is that the teachings of Jesus are of the Holy Spirit.
Other false assumptions: Torah worship; Moses worship; Paul worship.
* truth (teachings of Jesus) vs. false assumptions (e.g. water baptism) *
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh [e.g. water baptism and other traditions of men] profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life (John 6:63).
What Jesus taught is his true Holy Spirit. You cannot know the Holy Spirit of Jesus without having the words he spoke. People know Jesus' name and ancestry, but they don't know his teachings or beliefs. So they do not and cannot have his Spirit. But if I preach, I am covering/baptizing/immersing you in his Spirit. People receive the Holy Spirit every time they believe something Jesus said.
The Holy Spirit is not visible, as water or tongues is. Jesus told Nicodemus: the wind blows wherever; you hear it but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it's going. You can't put the wind (or the Spirit) in a box (or a font). I thank God that I have been released from the karmic "rinse and repeat" cycle of the Jewish ritual of water baptism.
Or, what is the water in John 3:5? Again, context is everything:
1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
The emphasis is that one must be born again albeit spiritually - as opposed to the "normal" earthly method of birth that we of the flesh all experience i.e. via the birth canal and its water. This confuses Nic, as he can relate only to a physical birthing and its water - and we only do that once.
In vs. 5 & 6, Jesus tells Nic that for those of the flesh (i.e. people), it takes BOTH "births" (the natural and the spiritual) to "see the kingdom of God."
To totally upset a majority here, know that this mitigates AGAINST ANY requirement for a "water baptism." We have entire denominations built upon the shifting sand of some physical "water baptism" as a requirement for whatever. THEY ARE WRONG.
From the OP:
The first believers got it slightly wrong - water baptism is a trick, a test, built into the gospel.
Worldwide, churches of all shapes and sizes teach people to be baptized in water. It's hard to get two of them to agree on exactly how it's supposed to be done,
whether you baptize in the name of Jesus, or in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost;
whether you sprinkle or pour water on people, or dunk them in the water;
whether it's done in a pool inside a church, or in a river;
who does it;
what the person doing it needs to believe in order for it to be valid;
whether you tip the person backward, or forward, when putting them under the water;
how old the person needs to be before you can baptize them;
what to do if the person backslides after being baptized;
whether the Holy Spirit comes into a person before, during, or after the water baptism...
The list goes on and on. There have been more divisions in the church over water baptism than over any other teaching in the Holy Bible or out of it.
Paul is the first person to have seen through this confusion to the truth behind it.
People were arguing over who had baptized them. Paul had baptized only a small handful of people, but soon realized that Jesus never meant for us to baptize people in water:
For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chl-oe that there are contentions among you. Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were you baptized in the name of Paul? I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. (1 Cor. 1:11-17).
Here's another oft-missed clue [comments added]:
And [Jesus] said unto [his disciples], Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized [in the Spirit, NOT water baptized] shall be saved; but he that believeth not [where is "water baptized"?] shall be damned [IOW, belief results in spiritual baptism unto salvation; unbelief results in damnation (water baptism is not repeated because it is now irrelevant)]...And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word [NOT confirming water baptisms] with signs following. Amen. (Mark 16:15-16, 20).
The understanding of baptism has been messed up and distorted from antiquity. The result has been not unlike the parable of the sower, where two different seeds were sown but only one produced fruit. And such rituals of men are easy to fake. There is something far more satisfying than being dunked in water. God says that he wants obedience more than sacrifice (1 Sa. 15:22)
Water baptism was a Jewish ritual, a Hebrew practice. There is nothing uniquely Christian about water baptism. The disciples did baptize in water, but Jesus did not do it (John 4:2). Water baptism is inconsistent with the Spirit of everything else that Jesus taught. Most of Jesus' enemies were circumcised; most were water baptized!
...I [John] indeed baptize you [the multitude] with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire (Luke 3:16).
What of Jesus' baptism? John protested:
But John forbade [Jesus], saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? (Mat. 3:14).
Jesus was the perfect spotless Lamb of God; he didn't need his sins washed away. Rather, Jesus asked John to accommodate him, because it made sense for them "to fulfill all righteousness". So John went ahead and baptized Jesus. The end of the old, and the start of the new.
So what does "to fulfill all righteousness" mean?
Well, Jesus was born into a Jewish family; circumcised at 8 days of age; taken to the temple at 12 years of age; raised in all the disciplines of the Jewish religion. And now he does this one final Jewish ritual, marking the end of his Jewishness and the start of a deeper revelation.
Jesus came to replace, fulfill, render useless, the law of Moses:
The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it (Luke 16:16). Out with the old, in with the new.
There is only one Lord, one faith, and one baptism via the Holy Ghost!
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body... (1 Cor. 12:13).
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen. (Mat. 28:18-20).
What are the action words in that passage (v. 19)?
There are only two action words = go and preach. When the disciples obey the commands to go and to preach, then the result is that people get baptized and taught. The disciples are NOT told to water baptize anyone. Rather, baptizing is what takes place EVERY TIME someone receives the truth of what is preached.
So baptism is never a one-off. Baptizing happens to someone EVERY TIME he receives the truth.
actions of men = go and preach;
results of Holy Spirit = taught and baptized
* preaching the gospel = baptizing *
Also, in that cited passage above (Mat. 28:19), it is WE who make yet another ASSUMPTION; we "just add water" i.e. we ASSUME that the "baptism" spoken of is of water!!! (...and the usage by Greek-o-philes of corrupt Greek lex-icons furthers that assumption.)
Another assumption was that speaking in tongues was of the Holy Spirit whereas the reality is that the teachings of Jesus are of the Holy Spirit.
Other false assumptions: Torah worship; Moses worship; Paul worship.
* truth (teachings of Jesus) vs. false assumptions (e.g. water baptism) *
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh [e.g. water baptism and other traditions of men] profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life (John 6:63).
What Jesus taught is his true Holy Spirit. You cannot know the Holy Spirit of Jesus without having the words he spoke. People know Jesus' name and ancestry, but they don't know his teachings or beliefs. So they do not and cannot have his Spirit. But if I preach, I am covering/baptizing/immersing you in his Spirit. People receive the Holy Spirit every time they believe something Jesus said.
The Holy Spirit is not visible, as water or tongues is. Jesus told Nicodemus: the wind blows wherever; you hear it but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it's going. You can't put the wind (or the Spirit) in a box (or a font). I thank God that I have been released from the karmic "rinse and repeat" cycle of the Jewish ritual of water baptism.
Or, what is the water in John 3:5? Again, context is everything:
1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
The emphasis is that one must be born again albeit spiritually - as opposed to the "normal" earthly method of birth that we of the flesh all experience i.e. via the birth canal and its water. This confuses Nic, as he can relate only to a physical birthing and its water - and we only do that once.
In vs. 5 & 6, Jesus tells Nic that for those of the flesh (i.e. people), it takes BOTH "births" (the natural and the spiritual) to "see the kingdom of God."
To totally upset a majority here, know that this mitigates AGAINST ANY requirement for a "water baptism." We have entire denominations built upon the shifting sand of some physical "water baptism" as a requirement for whatever. THEY ARE WRONG.
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They and Jesus,
Mark 16:15-16,
- and He said unto them, Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature,
he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved but he that believeth not shall be danmed
Paul himself taught his sins were forgiven in his baptism.
Acts 22:16,
- and now why are you waiting, Arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord
Paul condemns the church in Corinth of their abuse of baptism not baptism itself.
I should post a thread on 1Corinthians chapter 1.
I will teach what is taking place and what the meaning of Paul's writing is about.
.
For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard. And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
It was added to his circumcision as a seal of the righteousness which is by faith. Be baptized, and rest not in the sign, but make sure of the thing signified, the putting away of the filth of sin.
Paul was commissioned to go and preach the gospel to the Gentiles (as per my previous post).
.
Where is "baptism" in that damnation finale? The emphasis is on belief.
Acts 22:15-16:
For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard. And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
It was added to his circumcision as a seal of the righteousness which is by faith. Be baptized, and rest not in the sign, but make sure of the thing signified, the putting away of the filth of sin.
Paul was commissioned to go and preach the gospel to the Gentiles (as per my previous post).
.
Where is this taught by Paul in Acts 22:16?
Where is it taught by Paul anywhere?
.
Baptizing happens to someone EVERY TIME he receives the truth.
This is your theory:
Paul will go and preach that hearers may be taught and baptized by the HS.
I'd be honored to continue rightly dividing the word re: my post. Otherwise, I'm out.
.
The problem with this line of inquiry is in bold. Rather, one who "believes what Jesus said" is thusly "baptized" by the HS.
Baptizing happens to someone EVERY TIME he receives the truth.
This is your theory:
Meanwhile, you say, "...I should post...", "...I should teach..." etc. etc.
Paul will go and preach that hearers may be taught and baptized by the HS.
I'd be honored to continue rightly dividing the word re: my post. Otherwise, I'm out.
.
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I never made this claim.
Quote me making this claim.
I teach ones who truly believe the gospel will be baptized.
I never made the claim that everyone who believes the gospel will be baptized.
I currently have a sister who believes the gospel and even believes she must be baptized but has chosen to not obey the gospel because of sin in her life.
Faith leads to obedience.
I never taught everyone who has faith obeys.
Those who have no faith never obey is what I am teaching.
That is the difference.
Faith leads to obedience.
No faith never leads to obeying the gospel.
No, I wasn't teaching on Holy Spirit baptism.
Faith moves one to obey the gospel commandment to be water baptized.
That is Biblically a true statement.
If your interested in discussion on Paul's statement: - for Christ sent me not to baptize but to preach the gospel
I'd be glad to teach on 1Corinthians by starting my own thread.
.
.
You have misquoted me. Check your typo.
Rather, once you have faith, it's time to go and preach. And when that happens, ppl get baptized by the HS. Meanwhile, John's OT watering hole has dried up.
It's your party.
.
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NO water does not save us we are justified by grace by faith and by the Blood .justified = declared righteous just as if we had never sinned baptism is something we do a tyoe work which follows after salvation
Hello,
I never taught water saves nor does the Bible.
The new testament gospel of Jesus Christ teaches baptism in Jesus' name saves, Acts 2:38.
The element/water does not remove sin. God removes your sin in baptism because of your obedience to His gospel.
The blood of Christ forgives our sins, Matthew 26:28.
We contact the blood of Christ in baptism, Acts 2:38 ; Colossians 2:12.
Colossians 2:12-13
- buried with Him in baptism wherein also ye are risen with Him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised Him from the dead
- and you being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh hath He quickened together with Him, having forgiven you all tresspasses
Please give scripture for this doctrine?
Thanks
Only if we obey Gods gospel not by belief alone friend.
Hebrews 5:8-9
- and being made perfect He became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him
No obedience to gospel commandments, Mark 16:16 etc. No eternal life no grace given.
Yet Paul in 1 Cr 15.1-4, Eph 1,13, Col 2.13 teaches we are saved and sealed and all sin forgiven when we trust in the death and burial and resurrection of Christ, is he wrong ?
I don't believe so.
Please explain.
Back up.
It's not yet time to go preach when one has first believed in their mind. Jesus has given commandments in His gospel to be saved.
Mark 16:16, Jesus commands belief in Him and His gospel which includes water baptism.
This is what really needs to be first established.
When did water baptism end?
Under the old covenant when the law of Moses was in effect.
Or is water baptism preached by Jesus' apostles during the new testament, Jesus' new covenant?
Would you like to discuss this subject?
No he's not wrong modern doctrine is wrong.
Colossians 2:12-13 clearly says we are born again in baptism which is where God operates or performs His work to save us.
Paul is not wrong about faith saving or baptism saving.
It is an unscriptual idea that only one thing alone saves.
If so, then we don't need to believe to be saved.
Jesus' death on the cross alone saves. Anything else added to this is no longer one thing that saves us.
I'm not teaching we can save ourselves apart from Jesus' work on the cross. I'm teaching Gods grace is conditional.
God has given requirements for everyone to be given Gods grace and mercy.
So yes we must do things in order to receive Gods cleansing blood.
++++No he's not wrong
++++modern doctrine is wrong.
Agreed and I'm quoting Scripture not modern doctrine
1 Cor 15.1-4, Eph 1.13, Col 2.13 Saved, sealed, forgiven by trusting in the death burial resurrection
Titu 3.5-7, Rom 3.28, Gal 2.16, Rom 4.5, Eph 2.8-9, Rom 5.1 no mention of water baptism as a requirement to be saved
1 Cor 1.17 for Christ sent me not to baptize...
If WATER baptism is required today to be saved, where does Jesus via Paul teach that is the case ?
