What is the meaning of Grace, according to the Bible?

[1stCenturyLady]

Please don't be impressed...
The first chapter of John can be debated.
IF there is any verse that is addressing non-believers it would be
1 J 1:8
8If we claim we have no sin, we are only fooling ourselves and not living in the truth.

Some believe this is addressing gnostics who believed that the body sins but not the soul or spirit of the person.
Most believe that Paul is still addressing believers, although gnostics and unbelievers possible and probably were in the crowd.

This makes more logical sense to me because in 1 J 1:9 John goes on to explain the SOLUTION for the sinning and this solution could apply to both believers and non-believers on how to become Christian.
1 J 1:9
9But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness.

John would be addressing believers that might have been wandering away and restating doctrine on how walking in sin is dangerous, and how confessing will cleanse from all sin. The idea of walking in sin is important in his writing here.

John continues to use the word WE...this is all inclusive and, in my humble opinion, I believe he is addressing Christians.

Sorry, but now I'm even more impressed that not only 6, but you don't force 8 or 10 to be about a true Christian either, who the ignorant about the whole book in context have swallowed.

If WE say
WE have followship --- unbelievers do not have fellowship
WE lie
WE walk
cleanses US
WE say
WE deceive
in US
OUR sins
forgive US
cleanse US
WE have not sinned
WE make Him a liar
the truth is not in US


All the we's and us tend to support those that believe John is addressing believers.

That is a western mindset that does NOT understand eastern writing styles. Westerners do not support anything, but their errors. CONTEXT is all that matters, and not just of the verse, but of the book. For instance, 1 John 2:4 explains what the actual lie is in1 John 1:6, 8 and 10. "He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." The apostles are inclusive of all their congregation, gnostics included that need to be taught the truth with warnings. Another verse in chapter one is verse 9 that is merely how to BECOME a born again Christian. "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." How many times does it take? It is the same as Acts 2:38 where Peter says to Repent....and you shall have the gift of the Holy Spirit. How many times do you need to be born again? Arminians seem to use it multiple times every day like a 'get out of hell monopoly card.'

But those that believe in sinless perfection must find another meaning for the above or their doctrinal belief will be destroyed.

You are mistaken. It is not those who believe what Jesus said and does that are wrong. Everyone must confess and repent once to become born again of the Spirit. You can actually feel the change in your nature; at least, I did. Then you must do what Paul said, in Romans 6:11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12 lest sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts." Those not reckoning and believing the truth that can set us free, will sin again because Proverbs 23:7 says as a man thinks in his heart, so is he.

How many denominations do you know that teach we will always sin because we are still in our body of flesh? All of those say what you said against "sinless perfection." I don't teach that because Jesus doesn't start and finish in one instant which would be sinless perfection. I teach the doctrine that the blood of Jesus will cleanse our sin nature clean of all willful sins of lawlessness and takes the desire away as the Author of our faith. And then, as long as we remain abiding in Him throughout the rest of our lives, He completes the righteous to pure holiness that will never stumble again, even though we are still in these dying bodies. These bodies may bring us to the door of a temptation, but the power of the Spirit can turn us away BEFORE we even knock.

Sin is not generated by the body.
My skin cannot sin.
We can sin WITH the body.
But it is our soul that causes sin.
A soul that, at that moment, is not being governed by our spirit.

Our soul and spirit must be born again and created to not commit ANY willful lawless sins unto death. The body doesn't have anything to do with sin. It is like a floppy puppet, and only moves when the puppet masters, the soul and spirit, empowers it.

You believe we're closer to God than Adam was?
The atonement is trying to get us back to being like Adam in a small way.
Adam walked with God.
Adam made a deal with God.
We do not.

Jesus even said that John the Baptist was the greatest prophet, but he who is the least in the Kingdom of God is higher than him. Don't you know why? Answer that and you will know the answer to your question about coveting Adam's relationship.

Do you believe Jesus taught that mankind is perfect?
§Why did Jesus give the Apostles this command?
John 20:22-23
22Then he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone’s sins, they are forgiven. If you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”


John had a solution for sins.
Jesus had a solution for sins.

Be perfect: Be complete, §Be like your Father in heaven...in desire...in practice this is impossible.
Be holy: Be set apart for service go God. Be loving and merciful and pure.

Is man perfect? No. Where you got that idea I haven't a clue.

1 John 3 is on righteousness, not holiness. Jesus makes us sinless of all desire to commit sins unto death which is lawlessness, against God's commands.

You have not provided scripture for Peter and not stumbling.
Please provide scripture.

2 Peter 1:2-11 shows all you need to know about becoming holy like Jesus and "never stumble" again vs. 10. Note you are already sinless of sins unto death. Immature fruit of the Spirit is matured by Jesus as the Finisher of our second faith, Romans 1:16-17 taking care of sin not unto death.

 

[PeterAndroz]

God planned only for X number of Elect to represent Him throughout the earth for all eternity. He did not initially plan for people who would reject living with Him in His presence for all eternity.

However, part of God's formula was Free Choice. This meant that God anticipated the possibility of wrong human choices, leading to bad people. And so, despite God's original intention to have only His Elect, He allowed, in advance, for wrong choices, along with their consequences. The resolution to the problem was thus built into the original equation, even though God's original intention was only for the Elect.

Despite the fact some people have rejected being and acting like God's Elect God's attitude towards Man remains the same, offering the same benefits for all, including redemption. God simply knows who are being produced out of human rebellion and who are the original determined Elect of God.

""God planned only for X number of Elect to represent Him throughout the earth for all eternity""
Do you ALSO claim that GOD planned only for X number to be saved ?
....
If yes, then how do you explain these verses:-
1 Tim 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
2 Pet 3:9 ...not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[Randy Kluth]

""God planned only for X number of Elect to represent Him throughout the earth for all eternity""
Do you ALSO claim that GOD planned only for X number to be saved ?
....
If yes, then how do you explain these verses:-
1 Tim 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
2 Pet 3:9 ...not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

God extended the offer of Salvation to all, though He knew only the Elect would receive it. Those who would refuse to receive it would prove that they are a product of human works, and not of the works God originally intended.

 

[PeterAndroz]

God extended the offer of Salvation to all, though He knew only the Elect would receive it. Those who would refuse to receive it would prove that they are a product of human works, and not of the works God originally intended.

1 Tim 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
2 Pet 3:9 ...not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

"""though He knew only the Elect would receive it. ""
Knowing who is saved based on FOREKNOWLEDGE <<< Yes.
Randomly picking <<< No
Conc :- GOD does not randomly pick who will be saved, He simply knows and that's the difference :)

 

[bro.tan]

1) Jesus spoke during his earthly ministry in the context of the Law. It was still functioning as such. And the purpose of the Law was to frustrate Man in his present condition to make him hope in new circumstances, in a new covenant.

2) The terms of the Old Covenant represented the death of Man, as indicated in the Garden. Once Man had eaten of the Forbidden Tree, his destiny was death. And this sentence lasts as long as the current universe stands. All men must die.

3) The terms of the New Covenant fulfilled the Old Covenant by certifying that all men must die. Jesus certified that by dying himself--for us and not for himself. And in so doing, he fulfilled the Law also by redirecting Israel's hope towards his resurrection.

Though the curse lasts as long as the universe, the New Covenant was fulfilled in the death and resurrection of Christ. And those who take hold of him, by faith, come under terms of the New Covenant. Though we still must die, we have come out of the curse of eternal separation from God to enjoy his grace and the hope in the resurrection.

Matt 5.17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

Your focus has been on the righteousness of the Law. And that also was Jesus' focus at that time. But the indication is that Israel, represented by the Pharisees, had made a mockery of the righteousness of the Law by hypocritically presenting righteousness as a litrugical, external framework, as opposed to an internal reality. This indicated, as Jesus said elsewhere, that the Temple Law was about to fail. The Temple itself was about to come down.

What remained was Jesus' promise that after 3 days he, as a different kind of Temple, would rise up. And true righteousness would reside in those who choose to follow him, accepting the grace indicated in his sacrificial atonement.

The bottom line is that the passage you rely on does not work these things out theologically--they are still Old Testament. But put together with what Jesus said would happen, regarding his death and resurrection, and put together with what Paul did to explain these things, we know that righteousness was real under the Old Covenant, but failed in Israel. This placed the world's hope not in the Law of Moses, but rather, in Jesus, whose death and resurrection can give us both righteousness and Eternal Life.

If you don't understand these things, you're probably not a Born Again Christian.

What I do understand is the wages of sin death. Grace is nothing more than a free gift. And that free gift is our access back to the tree of life (Jesus) which Adam caused us to lose by disobeying God. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (Romans 5: 12) But to maintain your grace you must keep the law. (1John 3:4) Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. Now we have just read the biblical definition of sin, the transgression (breaking) of the law (commandments.) It doesn’t matter what you or I think sin is, it’s what God says sin is that counts.

If you don't understand these things, you're probably willfully sinning.

 

[Randy Kluth]

What I do understand is the wages of sin death. Grace is nothing more than a free gift. And that free gift is our access back to the tree of life (Jesus) which Adam caused us to lose by disobeying God. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (Romans 5: 12) But to maintain your grace you must keep the law. (1John 3:4) Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. Now we have just read the biblical definition of sin, the transgression (breaking) of the law (commandments.) It doesn’t matter what you or I think sin is, it’s what God says sin is that counts.

If you don't understand these things, you're probably willfully sinning.

Not really. I agree that Sin is defined as transgressing "God's Law," whether that be the Law of obedience given to Adam or the Law of Moses given to all Israel. It is violating God's Law of righteousness that constitutes Sin.

Your assumption seems to be that John is here referring only to the Law of Moses. Plainly, he did not say that. His assumption is that violating any of God's laws, whether the generic Law given to Man in creation, or the Law of Moses given to Israel, any violation of God's Law, whenever and whatever it is, is called "Sin."

This, to me, is quite obvious. By your definition, that John means the "Law of Moses," Adam and Eve never sinned. There was no Law of Moses for them to violate.

Therefore, John is referring to the more generic Law of God, as it applies to God's holiness, whether before the Law, during the Law, or after the Law, that constitutes God's rule which, if violated, identifies "Sin."

So, in suggesting that we must "maintain grace to keep the law" you are falsely calling upon Christians to maintain Salvation in Christ by routing our obedience through the Law of Moses. This is the opposite of what John or Paul taught. That renders you a very poor interpretor of NT doctrine.

Grace is, in fact, maintained by the choice of Christ as our rule of living, our means of righteousness. It is not adherance to the Law of Moses, though it certainly means that in choosing Christ we choose to live by his righteousness.

But the Law, for a single infraction, kept Man out of the Garden and away from the Tree of Life. If living by the Law, for righteousness, meant keeping Christ's Salvation, it is a contradiction, because keeping the Law meant necessary violations that keep us from Salvation. Grace is the ability to live in Christ's righteousness even though we remain in violation, simply because we've chosen the way of repentance.

 

[PeterAndroz]

What I do understand is the wages of sin death. Grace is nothing more than a free gift. And that free gift is our access back to the tree of life (Jesus) which Adam caused us to lose by disobeying God. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (Romans 5: 12) But to maintain your grace you must keep the law. (1John 3:4) Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. Now we have just read the biblical definition of sin, the transgression (breaking) of the law (commandments.) It doesn’t matter what you or I think sin is, it’s what God says sin is that counts.

If you don't understand these things, you're probably willfully sinning.

""But to maintain your grace you must keep the law. """
Not according to Titus 3:5-7, Eph 2:8-9, Gal 2:16, Rom 3:28, Rom 4:5, Rom 5:1

 

[GRACE ambassador]

to maintain your grace you must keep the law.

??? Unbiblical:

""But to maintain your grace you must keep the law. """
Not according to Titus 3:5-7, Eph 2:8-9, Gal 2:16, Rom 3:28, Rom 4:5, Rom 5:1

Amen! And in Addition, God Is Very Plain And Clear!:

"And if by Grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise Grace is no more Grace. But if it be ​

of works, then is it no more Grace: otherwise work is no more work." (Romans 11:6 AV) ​

Also This Biblical Confirmation:

God Is Extremely Plain And Clear In A Multitude Of Plain And Clear Passages Concerning
The Establishment of His Eternal Relationship (Salvation) With All [ faithful And Unfaithful ]
members of The Body Of Christ, eh?:

God's OPERATION On All HIS New-born babes In CHRIST
+ Update
+
God's Eternal Assurance
+
God's Eternal Life Insurance

Conclusion: Never Ever Change The Vast Multitude of Plain And Clear Scriptures By

"MISinterpreting them according to the few 'obscure, difficult, and dubious'​

cherry-picked verses" or by failing obey 2 Timothy 2:15 AV), eh?​

-------------
And, precious friend(s), Please Be Very Richly Encouraged and Edified
In The Lord Jesus Christ and In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided:

The Bible: The BIG Picture

Amen.

 

[bro.tan]

??? Unbiblical:

Amen! And in Addition, God Is Very Plain And Clear!:

"And if by Grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise Grace is no more Grace. But if it be ​

of works, then is it no more Grace: otherwise work is no more work." (Romans 11:6 AV) ​

Also This Biblical Confirmation:

God Is Extremely Plain And Clear In A Multitude Of Plain And Clear Passages Concerning
The Establishment of His Eternal Relationship (Salvation) With All [ faithful And Unfaithful ]
members of The Body Of Christ, eh?:

God's OPERATION On All HIS New-born babes In CHRIST
+ Update
+
God's Eternal Assurance
+
God's Eternal Life Insurance

Conclusion: Never Ever Change The Vast Multitude of Plain And Clear Scriptures By

"MISinterpreting them according to the few 'obscure, difficult, and dubious'​

cherry-picked verses" or by failing obey 2 Timothy 2:15 AV), eh?​

-------------
And, precious friend(s), Please Be Very Richly Encouraged and Edified
In The Lord Jesus Christ and In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided:

The Bible: The BIG Picture

Amen.

View attachment 90448

Paul says in (Rom. 7:7,12) (v.7) What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, THOU SHALT NOT COVET.

Paul asked a question, is the law sin? He said God forbid, he said the only way that he knew what sin was, was by the law.

(v.12) Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Why in the world would a Christian want to do away with something that God said is holy.

Paul says in (Rom. 4:15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. If there is no law there is no sin.

People we must realize everybody has laws by which we must operate by, the governments have laws, your job have laws, your card games have laws, even the boy scouts have laws. But now you are going to try and convince yourselves that the creator of the world has no laws by which we must live.

Also Paul says in (Rom. 5:13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. If there is no law, there is no sin!

 

[bro.tan]

""But to maintain your grace you must keep the law. """
Not according to Titus 3:5-7, Eph 2:8-9, Gal 2:16, Rom 3:28, Rom 4:5, Rom 5:1

You must give up a lifestyle where sin has dominion, (ruler ship) over you. Sin according to 1 John 3:4, Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression (breaking) of the law.

Paul says in (Rom. 7:7,12) (v.7) What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, THOU SHALT NOT COVET.

Paul asked a question, is the law sin? He said God forbid, he said the only way that he knew what sin was, was by the law.

(v.12) Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Why in the world would a Christian want to do away with something that God said is holy.

Paul says in (Rom. 4:15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. If there is no law there is no sin.

People we must realize everybody has laws by which we must operate by, the governments have laws, your job have laws, your card games have laws, even the boy scouts have laws. But now you are going to try and convince yourselves that the creator of the world has no laws by which we must live.

Also Paul says in (Rom. 5:13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. If there is no law, there is no sin!

I think you are miss understanding the word of God

 

[bro.tan]

Not really. I agree that Sin is defined as transgressing "God's Law," whether that be the Law of obedience given to Adam or the Law of Moses given to all Israel. It is violating God's Law of righteousness that constitutes Sin.

Your assumption seems to be that John is here referring only to the Law of Moses. Plainly, he did not say that. His assumption is that violating any of God's laws, whether the generic Law given to Man in creation, or the Law of Moses given to Israel, any violation of God's Law, whenever and whatever it is, is called "Sin."

This, to me, is quite obvious. By your definition, that John means the "Law of Moses," Adam and Eve never sinned. There was no Law of Moses for them to violate.

Therefore, John is referring to the more generic Law of God, as it applies to God's holiness, whether before the Law, during the Law, or after the Law, that constitutes God's rule which, if violated, identifies "Sin."

So, in suggesting that we must "maintain grace to keep the law" you are falsely calling upon Christians to maintain Salvation in Christ by routing our obedience through the Law of Moses. This is the opposite of what John or Paul taught. That renders you a very poor interpretor of NT doctrine.

Grace is, in fact, maintained by the choice of Christ as our rule of living, our means of righteousness. It is not adherance to the Law of Moses, though it certainly means that in choosing Christ we choose to live by his righteousness.

But the Law, for a single infraction, kept Man out of the Garden and away from the Tree of Life. If living by the Law, for righteousness, meant keeping Christ's Salvation, it is a contradiction, because keeping the Law meant necessary violations that keep us from Salvation. Grace is the ability to live in Christ's righteousness even though we remain in violation, simply because we've chosen the way of repentance.

Jesus brought grace when he came in the flesh, but example of grace was in the days of Noah. But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. (Genesis 6:8), And Noah and his family was saved. Not save from eternal life, but saved from the flood. This is why Jesus had to come. Paul says in Hebrews 9: 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 26 for then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Now Paul said in (Rom. 3:23-25) (v.23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. (v.24) Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: (v.25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God.

So the bible tells you to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2 :36-38). And by doing so you come up under his precious blood and then you are saved from your sins that are past, not present or future sins but for sins that are past. We were all locked under death by Adam’s sin, even the second death, which is the lake of fire. But when Jesus became (he was God in the beginning) man and died for the sins of the world, he gave us access back to the tree of life (himself) which Adam had caused us to lose. That’s what grace is, our free gift our access back to the tree of life but that’s another lesson for another time.

So by coming under the blood of Jesus being baptize, you are saved from your past sins. And if you are saved now, it is on a day to day basis. Because for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God (Romans 23:3), and if you continue to live you will sin again.
It is the willful sinning that you need to put in check. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. (Hebrew 10: 26, 27)

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus brought grace when he came in the flesh, but example of grace was in the days of Noah. But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. (Genesis 6:8), And Noah and his family was saved. Not save from eternal life, but saved from the flood. This is why Jesus had to come. Paul says in Hebrews 9: 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 26 for then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Now Paul said in (Rom. 3:23-25) (v.23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. (v.24) Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: (v.25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God.

So the bible tells you to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2 :36-38). And by doing so you come up under his precious blood and then you are saved from your sins that are past, not present or future sins but for sins that are past. We were all locked under death by Adam’s sin, even the second death, which is the lake of fire. But when Jesus became (he was God in the beginning) man and died for the sins of the world, he gave us access back to the tree of life (himself) which Adam had caused us to lose. That’s what grace is, our free gift our access back to the tree of life but that’s another lesson for another time.

So by coming under the blood of Jesus being baptize, you are saved from your past sins. And if you are saved now, it is on a day to day basis. Because for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God (Romans 23:3), and if you continue to live you will sin again.
It is the willful sinning that you need to put in check. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. (Hebrew 10: 26, 27)

I've read a few of your posts and basically agree but don't understand what you mean by The Law.
Do you mean all the rules and ordinances that were taugth by Moses to the Israelites?
Do you mean the law of Christ?

 

[PeterAndroz]

You must give up a lifestyle where sin has dominion, (ruler ship) over you. Sin according to 1 John 3:4, Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression (breaking) of the law.

Paul says in (Rom. 7:7,12) (v.7) What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, THOU SHALT NOT COVET.

Paul asked a question, is the law sin? He said God forbid, he said the only way that he knew what sin was, was by the law.

(v.12) Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Why in the world would a Christian want to do away with something that God said is holy.

Paul says in (Rom. 4:15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. If there is no law there is no sin.

People we must realize everybody has laws by which we must operate by, the governments have laws, your job have laws, your card games have laws, even the boy scouts have laws. But now you are going to try and convince yourselves that the creator of the world has no laws by which we must live.

Also Paul says in (Rom. 5:13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. If there is no law, there is no sin!

I think you are miss understanding the word of God

""You must give up a lifestyle where sin has dominion, (ruler ship) over you. Sin according to 1 John 3:4, ""
Gal 2:7-9 John AGREED that Paul teaches the gentiles/heathen and not he the 12, so why are you quoting him for today ?

 

[bro.tan]

""You must give up a lifestyle where sin has dominion, (ruler ship) over you. Sin according to 1 John 3:4, ""
Gal 2:7-9 John AGREED that Paul teaches the gentiles/heathen and not he the 12, so why are you quoting him for today ?

Well, that situation is neither here nor there. Peter was blessed with the keys to the kingdom, Paul was blessed to teach the Gentiles, but before Paul taught the Gentiles, he taught his own people, the children of Israel, and so in all, they both teaching the word of God. But in Galatians 2: 2-16 that situation, Peter, had to be corrected a little bit by Paul because of his behavior towards the Gentiles. Bringing in the Gentiles at that time, which is another nation of people was a little difficult, because all of the Israelites just didn’t cope with that easily.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Jesus brought grace when he came in the flesh, but example of grace was in the days of Noah. But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. (Genesis 6:8), And Noah and his family was saved. Not save from eternal life, but saved from the flood. This is why Jesus had to come. Paul says in Hebrews 9: 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 26 for then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Now Paul said in (Rom. 3:23-25) (v.23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. (v.24) Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: (v.25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God.

So the bible tells you to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2 :36-38). And by doing so you come up under his precious blood and then you are saved from your sins that are past, not present or future sins but for sins that are past. We were all locked under death by Adam’s sin, even the second death, which is the lake of fire. But when Jesus became (he was God in the beginning) man and died for the sins of the world, he gave us access back to the tree of life (himself) which Adam had caused us to lose. That’s what grace is, our free gift our access back to the tree of life but that’s another lesson for another time.

So by coming under the blood of Jesus being baptize, you are saved from your past sins. And if you are saved now, it is on a day to day basis. Because for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God (Romans 23:3), and if you continue to live you will sin again.
It is the willful sinning that you need to put in check. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. (Hebrew 10: 26, 27)

A lot good in there, Tan! I don't subscribe to the idea that only past sins are covered, but I understand the argument and think there's truth in it. To say our future sins are covered seems like a Get Out Of Jail Free card.

In reality, I think we do get a pass on our future sins when we cast ourselves upon the mercy of God and receive the New Birth. That is the guarantee that sins will never keep us out of "heaven."

Rom 8.38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Salvation, properly received, gifts the adherant with Eternal Life *now,* and not just hopefully for the future. All sins are forgiven in the act of repentance and in the act of receiving Christ. We're still responsible for our sins, but can rest assured we have Eternal Life if we've truly received Christ.

What I do believe is that there are those who have adopted Christ as a religion without making a full commitment. Such a person may even experience a measure of spirituality and gifting from God, as a reward for this partial obedience.

But inasmuch as these people have not gone the full way, the sin of infidelity may cause them eternal death ultimately. To be truly Saved, and covered even for future sins, one must make a complete commitment to Christ. Even then, I do find it still important to avoid serious sins, which will have negative consequences in our lives and in the lives of others.

Thank you for a pretty good response!

 

[bro.tan]

A lot good in there, Tan! I don't subscribe to the idea that only past sins are covered, but I understand the argument and think there's truth in it. To say our future sins are covered seems like a Get Out Of Jail Free card.

In reality, I think we do get a pass on our future sins when we cast ourselves upon the mercy of God and receive the New Birth. That is the guarantee that sins will never keep us out of "heaven."

Rom 8.38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Salvation, properly received, gifts the adherant with Eternal Life *now,* and not just hopefully for the future. All sins are forgiven in the act of repentance and in the act of receiving Christ. We're still responsible for our sins, but can rest assured we have Eternal Life if we've truly received Christ.

What I do believe is that there are those who have adopted Christ as a religion without making a full commitment. Such a person may even experience a measure of spirituality and gifting from God, as a reward for this partial obedience.

But inasmuch as these people have not gone the full way, the sin of infidelity may cause them eternal death ultimately. To be truly Saved, and covered even for future sins, one must make a complete commitment to Christ. Even then, I do find it still important to avoid serious sins, which will have negative consequences in our lives and in the lives of others.

Thank you for a pretty good response!

I really do appreciate your response, but keep in mind Paul said in (1 Cor. 9:24-27) (v.24) Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. (v.25) And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown: but we an incorruptible. Paul says that when you run in a race every body is running for a prize. But this prize that he is referring to is eternal life, that’s what he means by an incorruptible, he’s talking about an incorruptible body, a heavenly body. (v.26) I therefore so run, not as uncertainly, so fight, not as one that beateth the air: (v.27) But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. You see Paul knew exactly what was going on that why he says he has to bring his body under subjection. Under subjection to what? To God’s Law, Paul knew that if he didn’t continue to keep Gods law that even after he had preached to many that he himself could still become a castaway. This doesn’t sound like Paul thinks that he has guarantee salvation.

Don’t allow yourself to be deceived into believing that once you believe in the Lord that your work is finished, it has just started.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I really do appreciate your response, but keep in mind Paul said in (1 Cor. 9:24-27) (v.24) Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. (v.25) And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown: but we an incorruptible. Paul says that when you run in a race every body is running for a prize. But this prize that he is referring to is eternal life, that’s what he means by an incorruptible, he’s talking about an incorruptible body, a heavenly body. (v.26) I therefore so run, not as uncertainly, so fight, not as one that beateth the air: (v.27) But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. You see Paul knew exactly what was going on that why he says he has to bring his body under subjection. Under subjection to what? To God’s Law, Paul knew that if he didn’t continue to keep Gods law that even after he had preached to many that he himself could still become a castaway. This doesn’t sound like Paul thinks that he has guarantee salvation.

Don’t allow yourself to be deceived into believing that once you believe in the Lord that your work is finished, it has just started.

Well, Tan, you either have Salvation or you don't. You either have Eternal Life or you don't.

None of this means it is unimportant to live in righteous way. As I said, there are negative consequences to disobeying God's Word.

I say "God's Word" because referring to that as a "Law" depersonalizes God and seems to make God accountable to His own rules. In reality, He can fix rules for a time, and He can makes rules as He goes along. This cannot be identified strictly as a rigid "Law."

The Law, as I've said before, does not refer, in this regard, to the Law of Moses. It refers to the Law or Principle of God's morality, of God's Moral Virtue. We are subject to the Image of God, since we were created in the Image of God.

This then is our Law, to live in the image of God. Don't bind God's righteousness to a set of rules. Whatever He tells you to do becomes a Law in itself, and not a universal Law for everybody else. It may be directive, asking only you to act in particular situation. Don't call it a "Law" for everyone. It is obedience by you to God's Word.

We must indeed obey God's Word if we are to receive Eternal Life because God has asked everybody to receive Christ as the basis of Eternal Life. But this doesn't mean that every time we fail to be virtuous that we've lost our Salvation. Nor does it mean that even if we totally mess up and do something awful that we've lost our Salvation.

We are convicted when we do wrong, and want to have our fellowship with God restored, if we are truly Saved. Those who never completely surrender their independence may demonstrate some Christian virtues, but are not thereby Saved because of that. They are Saved only when they forfeit their own ways for Christ as THE Way. When we do so we are also choosing to live by God's Moral Law and by the need to obey God's Word. These are my thoughts on this...

 

[bro.tan]

Well, Tan, you either have Salvation or you don't. You either have Eternal Life or you don't.

None of this means it is unimportant to live in righteous way. As I said, there are negative consequences to disobeying God's Word.

I say "God's Word" because referring to that as a "Law" depersonalizes God and seems to make God accountable to His own rules. In reality, He can fix rules for a time, and He can makes rules as He goes along. This cannot be identified strictly as a rigid "Law."

The Law, as I've said before, does not refer, in this regard, to the Law of Moses. It refers to the Law or Principle of God's morality, of God's Moral Virtue. We are subject to the Image of God, since we were created in the Image of God.

This then is our Law, to live in the image of God. Don't bind God's righteousness to a set of rules. Whatever He tells you to do becomes a Law in itself, and not a universal Law for everybody else. It may be directive, asking only you to act in particular situation. Don't call it a "Law" for everyone. It is obedience by you to God's Word.

We must indeed obey God's Word if we are to receive Eternal Life because God has asked everybody to receive Christ as the basis of Eternal Life. But this doesn't mean that every time we fail to be virtuous that we've lost our Salvation. Nor does it mean that even if we totally mess up and do something awful that we've lost our Salvation.

We are convicted when we do wrong, and want to have our fellowship with God restored, if we are truly Saved. Those who never completely surrender their independence may demonstrate some Christian virtues, but are not thereby Saved because of that. They are Saved only when they forfeit their own ways for Christ as THE Way. When we do so we are also choosing to live by God's Moral Law and by the need to obey God's Word. These are my thoughts on this...

In the days of Jesus, the religious leaders were constantly questioning Jesus in order to test Him and on this occasion a lawyer asked Jesus what is the great commandment?

Matthew (22:35) Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, (36) Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

Jesus reply was the 1st great commandment was to love God and the 2nd was to love ones neighbor. These were given as a commandment for man to love.

Matthew (22:37) Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.(38) This is the first and great commandment. (39) And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

One should note that by following the 1st and 2nd great commandment they will be adhering to the 10 commandments issued by Moses. If they love the Lord they won’t have any other Gods before him, or make any graven images or take his name in vain, they will remember his Sabbath and if they love their neighbor they will honor their Father and Mother and they won’t kill or commit adultery or steal or bear false witness nor will they covet. This is why Jesus goes on to state that on these two commandments hang the law and the prophets. Because by fulfilling these two commandments one fulfills the law.

(40) On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Jesus stated that these 2 commandments where the 2 great commandments however the following verses will show that these commandments were not new and that the Jews and Jesus was speaking to were aware of them. These were the same ones issued to Israel by Moses.

Deuteronomy (6:5) And thy shall love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Leviticus (19:18) Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Now that it has been established that man was commanded to love one needs to examine the scriptures to get an understanding of the love required in these great commandments.

In the following verses Moses is telling the Israelites that God chose them strictly out of His love for them.Deuteronomy (7:7) The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: (8) But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

(9) Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

Note in verse (9) Moses states a condition that God requires in order for Him to keep covenant and have mercy. And that is an individual must love God and keep His commandments. The scriptures will show that there is only one way to love God and that is by keeping His commandments.

Note that Jesus states in the following verse that in order to love Him one has to keep His commandments.

John (14:15) If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Jesus further defines the love He requires when He states in the following verse that those who have His commandments and keep them are those that love Him. One does not have to guess at Jesus definition of love He made it clear.

John (14:21) He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Jesus also reinforced what was said in Deuteronomy verse (9) by adding that those that love Him will be loved by the Father. How does one love Jesus? by keeping His commandments and Moses said God will keep covenant and have mercy with those who keep His commandments. So therefore by following Jesus one shall receive love from Him as well as mercy from the Father.

Note in these scriptures it did not say those who profess their love for Jesus or those that claim that Jesus knows what in their heart. Jesus made a clear and direct statement if one has His commandments and keeps them they are the ones who love Him. The statement that Jesus made as well as the condition Moses gave in Deuteronomy verse (9) were based on behalf of an individuals actions not their feeling or emotions or conditions. To exhibit love towards Jesus one must engage in a specific action and that action is being obedience to the word of God. And one will see that they are to be obedient regardless of their feeling or the surrounding circumstances.

Jesus states again in the following verses what is required of an individual to receive His love.

John (15:9) As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. (10) If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Notice Jesus use the word if ye keep my commandments, so what happen if ye do not keep his commandments. The above verse shows to be loved of Jesus one needs to be obedient. Jesus also states in verse (10) that He was obedient to the Father by keeping His commandments and therefore abides in His love.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

so what happen if ye do not keep his commandments.

Many are confused as to "which" commandments to obey?:

I have decided to follow Jesus?

 

[bro.tan]

Many are confused as to "which" commandments to obey?:

I have decided to follow Jesus?

The bible says, we must not only be a hearer of the word, but a doer of the word also (James 1:21-22). DON'T FOOL YOURSELF! If we really have faith in Jesus our actions will prove it. If Jesus is our Lord then we will obey him. Even a child will obey a parent, by getting good grades in school, for the reward of a new bicycle. The child cannot earn money for the bicycle, but instead must act upon their faith to receive the free gift. We must do the same to receive eternal life. "FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD” (James 2:20).

Some say you must obey God's word, but then they turn around and teach contrary to God's word. At best they never get around to explaining exactly what kind of works are needed to get eternal life. A man asked Jesus this very question, "...What good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?", and Jesus replied, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (Matthew 19:16-19).