What If the False Teacher Sounds Like a Man of God?

[bdavidc]

All theory and no substance. All cloud and no rain. All hat and no cattle. Your arrogance is of a particular kind...there is another here that considers himself a theologian who went to some bible school...and he claims that others are not even worthy to carry his lunch pail. Sounds like your own type of arrogance. But both you and he know nothing beyond what carnal eyes can perceive.

You keep attacking me personally while avoiding the actual issue. Calling me arrogant, carnal, or blind does nothing to establish your teaching as biblical. Acts 17:11 says teaching is to be examined by Scripture, and that is exactly what I am doing. God’s Word has authority over you, me, and every teacher who claims to speak for Him. If your position is true, demonstrate it from Scripture. Personal insults are not evidence.

 

[Episkopos]

You keep attacking me personally while avoiding the actual issue. Calling me arrogant, carnal, or blind does nothing to establish your teaching as biblical. Acts 17:11 says teaching is to be examined by Scripture, and that is exactly what I am doing. God’s Word has authority over you, me, and every teacher who claims to speak for Him. If your position is true, demonstrate it from Scripture. Personal insults are not evidence.

But that's all you do....exactly what you say people who get fed up with your arrogance are telling you.

Show even a novice's understanding of the most basic bible verse. What has any value in your presence here. Talk about what God has shown you...

Have you seen Mount Zion?

Have you been to the throne room of God?

Have you been visited by God?

 

[bdavidc]

But that's all you do....exactly what you say people who get fed up with your arrogance are telling you.

Show even a novice's understanding of the most basic bible verse. What has any value in your presence here. Talk about what God has shown you...

Have you seen Mount Zion?

Have you been to the throne room of God?

Have you been visited by God?

Now you are proving my point again. Whether I have “seen Mount Zion,” been in God’s throne room, or had some private visitation from God is completely irrelevant. God never told us to test doctrine by somebody’s supposed spiritual experiences. He told us to test it by His Word.

Paul even warned about people “intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind” (Colossians 2:18).

I do not need a vision to know whether your teaching is true. I need Scripture. So again, stop appealing to experiences and show from God’s Word that what you teach is true.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

But that's all you do....exactly what you say people who get fed up with your arrogance are telling you.

Show even a novice's understanding of the most basic bible verse. What has any value in your presence here. Talk about what God has shown you...

Have you seen Mount Zion?

Have you been to the throne room of God?

Have you been visited by God?

the arrogant person is you Epi,

your one of the most arrogant persons I have ever met.

and all you ever do is pump your chest..

 

[Fathom]

Yes, Peter says some things Paul wrote are hard to understand. But read the whole verse, because Peter's point is not that Paul was confused, mistaken, or changing his theology.

Peter says that the “untaught and unstable” twist Paul's writings “as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction” (2 Peter 3:16).

That is a serious statement. Peter identifies the problem as people twisting Paul's teaching, not Paul teaching error. He had just said that Paul wrote “according to the wisdom given unto him” (2 Peter 3:15).

And notice Peter's words: they twist Paul's writings “as they do also the other scriptures.” Peter is placing Paul's writings alongside Scripture. He is not warning his readers that Paul sometimes got things wrong. He is warning them that people distort what Paul wrote just as they distort the rest of God's Word.

That fits what Paul himself said: “when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God” (1 Thessalonians 2:13).

The context makes your argument even harder to defend. Peter is discussing people questioning the promised return of Christ: “Where is the promise of his coming?” (2 Peter 3:4). Yet Peter never says Paul predicted Christ would return by a certain date and got it wrong. Instead, Peter says, “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise” (2 Peter 3:9).

Yes, some of Paul's writings can be difficult and require careful study. But “hard to understand” does not mean “wrong,” and it certainly does not mean Paul made a failed prediction and later changed his theology.

Peter's warning is actually against doing exactly what should concern us here: taking Paul's writings and twisting them into something he did not teach.

So I will ask you again: where is the passage in which Paul gives a deadline for Christ's return that failed? Please show us the text.

When Paul writes, "we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord," he meant exactly what he said. He was addressing his living audience, grouping himself and them together as the generation that would escape physical death and be swept up into the air.

1 Corinthians 7:29–31: Paul states, "the appointed time has grown very short." Because of this "present distress," he advise believers that it is better not to marry or change their social status. This advice only makes sense if Paul believed the world was collapsing in a matter of years, not millennia.

(2 Thessalonians) Paul wrote to correct a misunderstanding among believers who thought the Day of the Lord had already arrived, explaining that specific events and a "rebellion" had to happen first.
This verse makes it clear that Paul's teaching led to confusion among the believers.

You acknowledge that Paul's writing can be difficult to understand. Can you show me the specific part that is difficult to understand?

 

[ScottA]

You keep acting as though the problem is that I do not understand your explanation

That is not what I said.

I said that you are comparing your own errored understanding of the scriptures, with the actual truth. Which is no better, but comparable with many throughout history, including those who crucified Christ, who--like you--thought they had it all figured out, but were dead wrong.

 

[Episkopos]

Now you are proving my point again. Whether I have “seen Mount Zion,” been in God’s throne room, or had some private visitation from God is completely irrelevant.

You are dead wrong. A false prophet is one who puts himself in a place to judge God's words...but has NOT been commissioned by God to do so. So you are an imposter then. A false prophet. According to the bible, you condemn yourself...

And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of the Lord;
3 Thus saith the Lord God; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing! Ez 13

God never told us to test doctrine by somebody’s supposed spiritual experiences. He told us to test it by His Word.

Who is the "us"? You are not qualified to judge even the book cover of the bible let alone its contents.

I could post bible verses all day long....without even a brain synapse of yours firing in the proper way.

Paul even warned about people “intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind” (Colossians 2:18).

The NOT seen is exactly what you admit to. So again you condemn yourself...if you understand English. This verse perfectly describes you.

You are vainly puffed up in your carnal mind on things you admit you have NOT SEEN. So you are not qualified to be a witness or arbiter of anything.

I am qualified because I have seen.

I do not need a vision to know whether your teaching is true. I need Scripture. So again, stop appealing to experiences and show from God’s Word that what you teach is true.

That's false. A carnal mind has no place in the judgment seat. You are simply arrogant as well as ignorant.

 

[bdavidc]

When Paul writes, "we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord," he meant exactly what he said. He was addressing his living audience, grouping himself and them together as the generation that would escape physical death and be swept up into the air.

1 Corinthians 7:29–31: Paul states, "the appointed time has grown very short." Because of this "present distress," he advise believers that it is better not to marry or change their social status. This advice only makes sense if Paul believed the world was collapsing in a matter of years, not millennia.

(2 Thessalonians) Paul wrote to correct a misunderstanding among believers who thought the Day of the Lord had already arrived, explaining that specific events and a "rebellion" had to happen first.
This verse makes it clear that Paul's teaching led to confusion among the believers.

You acknowledge that Paul's writing can be difficult to understand. Can you show me the specific part that is difficult to understand?

You still have not shown Paul predicting that Christ would return before Paul died. “We which are alive and remain” does not say, “I, Paul, will definitely still be alive when Christ returns.” Paul is describing what will happen to believers who are alive at His coming. You are adding the deadline.

The same problem is in your use of 1 Corinthians 7. Paul says there was a “present distress” (v. 26), but nowhere says Christ must return within a few years. In fact, he tells them, “if thou marry, thou hast not sinned” (v. 28).

And 2 Thessalonians does not prove Paul caused their confusion. Paul specifically warns them not to be deceived “by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand” (2 Thessalonians 2:2). That points to false claims being attributed to Paul, not Paul correcting a failed prophecy of his own.

As for 2 Peter 3:16, Peter says some things in Paul’s letters are hard to understand. He does not tell us which ones. What he does tell us is that the “unlearned and unstable wrest” them “unto their own destruction.”

So the question remains unanswered: where did Paul give a deadline for Christ’s return that failed?

 

[ScottA]

You say, “I have no need to prove anything.” That is false. The moment you claim that God has given you something to declare, Scripture commands that claim to be tested.

No. I will correct you (again).

What that says...is the burden of proof is on you, or anyone who doesn't like what they hear.

 

[bdavidc]

That is not what I said.

I said that you are comparing your own errored understanding of the scriptures, with the actual truth. Which is no better, but comparable with many throughout history, including those who crucified Christ, who--like you--thought they had it all figured out, but were dead wrong.

Then stop declaring yourself right and prove it from Scripture. You keep calling my understanding “errored” and yours “the actual truth,” but you have not demonstrated that from the text. Comparing me to those who crucified Christ is not biblical proof. It is a diversion. If I am wrong, expose the error from Scripture, in context. Until then, your claim of having “the actual truth” is just that, a claim.

God’s Word is the authority here, not you.

 

[Episkopos]

Then stop declaring yourself right and prove it from Scripture. You keep calling my understanding “errored” and yours “the actual truth,” but you have not demonstrated that from the text. Comparing me to those who crucified Christ is not biblical proof. It is a diversion. If I am wrong, expose the error from Scripture, in context. Until then, your claim of having “the actual truth” is just that, a claim.

God’s Word is the authority here, not you.

Prove it from the text. Stop being a hypocrite.

 

[bdavidc]

You are dead wrong. A false prophet is one who puts himself in a place to judge God's words...but has NOT been commissioned by God to do so. So you are an imposter then. A false prophet. According to the bible, you condemn yourself...

And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of the Lord;
3 Thus saith the Lord God; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing! Ez 13


Who is the "us"? You are not qualified to judge even the book cover of the bible let alone its contents.

I could post bible verses all day long....without even a brain synapse of yours firing in the proper way.


The NOT seen is exactly what you admit to. So again you condemn yourself...if you understand English. This verse perfectly describes you.

You are vainly puffed up in your carnal mind on things you admit you have NOT SEEN. So you are not qualified to be a witness or arbiter of anything.

I am qualified because I have seen.

That's false. A carnal mind has no place in the judgment seat. You are simply arrogant as well as ignorant.

You are twisting both passages. Ezekiel 13 condemns men who “prophesy out of their own hearts” and “follow their own spirit.” It does not say Christians need visions before they can test doctrine.

And Colossians 2:18 is a warning against being “vainly puffed up” over claimed spiritual visions. Yet your whole argument is, “I am qualified because I have seen.” That is exactly the kind of boasting Paul warns about.

You keep making yourself the authority because of what you claim to have experienced. Scripture says the opposite. “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good” (1 Thessalonians 5:21).

God’s Word is the standard. Your visions are not.

Your claimed visions that contradict Scripture disqualify the vision. It does not qualify you

 

[bdavidc]

No. I will correct you (again).

What that says...is the burden of proof is on you, or anyone who doesn't like what they hear.

No. That is not how biblical teaching works. Yes, I have a responsibility to test what you teach. But when you claim something is truth from God, you also have a responsibility to establish it from God’s Word. You do not get to make claims, refuse to prove them, and then tell everyone else, “The burden is on you.”

Scripture says, “believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God” (1 John 4:1), and “let the other judge” when something is presented as coming from God (1 Corinthians 14:29).

So I am doing exactly what Scripture commands. You made the claim. Show it from Scripture.

And be careful what you teach in God’s name. James 3:1 warns, “be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.” False teaching is not a small matter. If you are speaking for God, you had better be able to prove that what you are teaching is actually in His Word.

 

[amigo de christo]

Stop using claims of spiritual depth to shield your teaching from Scripture. You say “rightly dividing” means dividing God’s Word into righteousness and holiness. Second Timothy 2:15 never states that division. If you want to teach it as God’s command, establish it from the text. Your assertion is not proof.

You suggest that people who study the Bible are poorly equipped to judge a prophet because prophets speak “deeper things.” Scripture commands the examination you are trying to discredit: “Believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world” (1 John 4:1). Paul says, “Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge” (1 Corinthians 14:29). A claim to prophetic insight gives you no exemption.

Your statement about Jesus speaking things outside the Tanach does not withstand His own words: “Had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me” (John 5:46). Jesus exposed His opponents’ unbelief through Scripture. You cannot use their rejection of Christ to portray rejection of your teaching as the same sin. You are not Christ, and your interpretations are not His voice merely because you say they are.

You accuse your critics of pride, dishonesty, and darkness while leaving their biblical objections unanswered. Those accusations establish nothing. The Bereans examined Paul’s preaching by searching Scripture, and they were commended for it (Acts 17:11). If an apostle’s preaching could be examined, yours certainly can.

Twisting God’s Word and discouraging people from testing spiritual claims serves deception. Paul warned that Satan presents himself as “an angel of light,” and that his ministers present themselves as “ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works” (2 Corinthians 11:14–15). Religious language does not make deception holy. Claiming to teach righteousness does not protect a false teacher from judgment.

This is the warning: repent of every teaching that contradicts Scripture, stop condemning people for examining your claims, and answer the passages placed before you. James 3:1 warns that teachers “shall receive the greater condemnation.” You are accountable for what you teach. Claims of superior understanding will not excuse error before God, and they will not silence biblical examination here.

A Serious Warning About Episkopos and His Teaching

I'm probably the only one who has ever been before the Lord for real. And the only one here who has walked in Zion (kingdom realm) for an extended amount of time. So maybe I am far more familiar with the truth than most.

I DID NOT SAY THIS about my self .
THIS IS THE WRITIN GS OF EPI . OF EPI who has come after me for remin ding all
of the dire need TO BELIEVE ON JESUS THE CHRIST
and then when i did preach to an atheist about his need to BELIEVE on JESUS
this same great and mig hty high man of God called epi , called ME a RELIGIOUS extremist . something is dead wrong with that man .

 

[bdavidc]

Prove it from the text. Stop being a hypocrite.

You are confusing accusation with evidence. Calling me a hypocrite does not make me one, and repeating “prove it” does not answer the Scriptures already in front of you.

Jesus said, “He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken” (John 12:48). That is the issue. God’s Word judges both of us. So your labels do not matter. What matters is whether what you teach survives the plain testimony of Scripture.

So far, your claims have not.

 

[Fathom]

You still have not shown Paul predicting that Christ would return before Paul died. “We which are alive and remain” does not say, “I, Paul, will definitely still be alive when Christ returns.” Paul is describing what will happen to believers who are alive at His coming. You are adding the deadline.

The same problem is in your use of 1 Corinthians 7. Paul says there was a “present distress” (v. 26), but nowhere says Christ must return within a few years. In fact, he tells them, “if thou marry, thou hast not sinned” (v. 28).

And 2 Thessalonians does not prove Paul caused their confusion. Paul specifically warns them not to be deceived “by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand” (2 Thessalonians 2:2). That points to false claims being attributed to Paul, not Paul correcting a failed prophecy of his own.

As for 2 Peter 3:16, Peter says some things in Paul’s letters are hard to understand. He does not tell us which ones. What he does tell us is that the “unlearned and unstable wrest” them “unto their own destruction.”

So the question remains unanswered: where did Paul give a deadline for Christ’s return that failed?

Paul shift his message from "Jesus is coming back suddenly" (1 Thessalonians) to "Hold on, certain signs must happen first" (2 Thessalonians).

Since Peter did not identify the parts of Paul's writing that he found difficult to understand, it can be inferred that he is indirectly alerting us to the potential pitfalls in Paul's writings.

As a teacher of scripture you acknowledge that Paul's writing can be difficult to understand. Can you to show me the specific part that is difficult to understand?

 

[bdavidc]

Paul shift his message from "Jesus is coming back suddenly" (1 Thessalonians) to "Hold on, certain signs must happen first" (2 Thessalonians).

Since Peter did not identify the parts of Paul's writing that he found difficult to understand, it can be inferred that he is indirectly alerting us to the potential pitfalls in Paul's writings.

As a teacher of scripture you acknowledge that Paul's writing can be difficult to understand. Can you to show me the specific part that is difficult to understand?

You are still reading a contradiction into Paul that is not there.

In 1 Thessalonians Paul taught that the Day of the Lord would come “as a thief in the night” upon those saying “Peace and safety,” but he immediately told believers, “ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief” (1 Thessalonians 5:2–4). So even in 1 Thessalonians, Paul was not teaching that believers should expect Christ at literally any second with no other information.

Then in 2 Thessalonians 2 he gives additional details about events connected with that day. Additional explanation is not a change of doctrine.

Your appeal to 2 Peter 3:16 has the same problem. Peter does not say Paul taught error. He says there are “some things hard to be understood,” which the “unlearned and unstable wrest...unto their own destruction.” That is a warning about people twisting Paul, not a warning that Paul cannot be trusted.

As for your question, yes, some passages in Paul require careful reading. Romans 9–11, parts of Romans 7, and portions of 1 Corinthians 15 are examples where context matters greatly. But “difficult to understand” does not mean “wrong,” and Peter certainly does not give us permission to invent a failed prophecy and attribute it to Paul.

So we are still back at the original question: where did Paul actually say that Jesus would return before Paul died? You have not shown it.

 

[ScottA]

Correct, I am not the arbiter of God’s Word. God’s Word is. And God’s Word absolutely has authority over you, me, and every teacher who claims to speak for Him. So when Scripture shows that your teaching is wrong, that is not my authority judging you. That is God’s Word judging your teaching. When Scripture contradicts you, you are wrong.

No, you are only giving yourself credit for fully understanding the scriptures, which you do not.

You can assume and act as if you fully understand the scriptures and are qualified to judge others, but that doesn't mean it is true. So, the test you are using is only so good as your understanding. But you demonstrate a level of knowledge that is subject to the warnings against false teachers, as one under foretold delusion, and thus comparable with many repeated failures of the past. And you can say the same of me or others, which accomplishes nothing.

Knowing then that the scriptures tell of such things, you are simply taking a poor approach at working through the issues. If you are going to test, you would do better to ask questions regarding one point at a time, rather than simply accessing based on your own understanding and making accusations.

Can you do that?

 

[bdavidc]

No, you are only giving yourself credit for fully understanding the scriptures, which you do not.

You can assume and act as if you fully understand the scriptures and are qualified to judge others, but that doesn't mean it is true. So, the test you are using is only so good as your understanding. But you demonstrate a level of knowledge that is subject to the warnings against false teachers, as one under foretold delusion, and thus comparable with many repeated failures of the past. And you can say the same of me or others, which accomplishes nothing.

Knowing then that the scriptures tell of such things, you are simply taking a poor approach at working through the issues. If you are going to test, you would do better to ask questions regarding one point at a time, rather than simply accessing based on your own understanding and making accusations.

Can you do that?

You keep accusing me of not understanding Scripture and now say I am under a foretold delusion. That is a serious accusation, so prove it from Scripture.

Pick one specific statement I have made that is false. Quote what I said, then show the Scripture, in context, that proves it wrong. Do not just tell me I lack understanding. Show me from the Word of God.

If you claim I am under “delusion,” then show exactly what biblical passage applies to me and demonstrate from what I have actually said how it applies. Otherwise, you are making an accusation without establishing it.

So yes, let’s take it one point at a time. Show me from Scripture where I am wrong.


Don't forget we can take a look at your false book anytime to see how it holds up to the actual Bible:

>>>>>> Are you willing to have your book examined against Scripture, claim by claim? I am willing to purchase a copy and review what you actually wrote, quoting you accurately and examining the biblical passages in context. Where your teaching agrees with Scripture, I will acknowledge it. Where it contradicts Scripture, I will identify the error plainly. Will you answer those objections from the biblical text?

 

[ScottA]

When Paul writes, "we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord," he meant exactly what he said. He was addressing his living audience, grouping himself and them together as the generation that would escape physical death and be swept up into the air.

1 Corinthians 7:29–31: Paul states, "the appointed time has grown very short." Because of this "present distress," he advise believers that it is better not to marry or change their social status. This advice only makes sense if Paul believed the world was collapsing in a matter of years, not millennia.

(2 Thessalonians) Paul wrote to correct a misunderstanding among believers who thought the Day of the Lord had already arrived, explaining that specific events and a "rebellion" had to happen first.
This verse makes it clear that Paul's teaching led to confusion among the believers.

You acknowledge that Paul's writing can be difficult to understand. Can you show me the specific part that is difficult to understand?

I addressed this already--No, in saying "we who are alive and remain" Paul was not just speaking to that audience living at that time. He is stating the terms for all time, but specifically since Pentecost when one could be "alive" in Christ in God, but "remain" in the flesh and in this world until they/we pass. If it were not so, it would not have been entered into the eternal word of God as pertaining to the general issue of being in God, but also in the world.

Paul shift his message from "Jesus is coming back suddenly" (1 Thessalonians) to "Hold on, certain signs must happen first" (2 Thessalonians).

Since Peter did not identify the parts of Paul's writing that he found difficult to understand, it can be inferred that he is indirectly alerting us to the potential pitfalls in Paul's writings.

As a teacher of scripture you acknowledge that Paul's writing can be difficult to understand. Can you to show me the specific part that is difficult to understand?

I also explained, that Paul did seem to shift gears and change his outlook on the future and the return of Christ--but only because He was preaching to both those of Israel who were subject to the terms of Christ's first advent, and yet also, because he also preached to those who were then subject to Christ's next advent.