MostlyConfused
Well-Known Member
Once again, Ezekiel 18. It contradicts what you say here.
A relevant verse is this - make no mistake, a righteous man does what is right.
Sinless Perfection. Why do so many teach against what Jesus taught?
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MostlyConfused
Well-Known Member
JimKnox
Active Member
Not '2 levels' as that is misleading and confusing. Two steps in the process to perfection in holiness, in the service of God. The first for the newly righteous as the new beginning in Christ, and the second, increasing in maturity that marks holiness, with increasing righteousness in life, in one's character and heart. It becomes a full life-style of righteousness, in body and soul.
Only misleading and confusing to the carnal mind you mean... I agree with that.
2 levels of conversion....two steps into the full measure of grace (for most people)
Sort of. There are 2 actual conversion experiences most require who are not instantly translated into the kingdom realm of the Spirit. To the ones who are not baptized in the Spirit initially....seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness.
From a purely acedemic definition, sin is transgression of the law.
1 John 3:4
4Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.
But, more specifically, sin is not doing right and not loving your brother. Maybe you recognize that I am keying off 1 John 3:10 for that definition.
10Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.
You can't ignore the entire system of priesthood and sacrifice in the old covenant for the forgiveness of sin to make Ezekiel 18:21-23 mean all you have to do is stop doing wrong and you will be justified. You are guilty of what Paul calls 'un-rightly dividing the word of God'. You are pulling that teaching out of the context of the whole counsel of scripture. The law requires justice for sins committed.
That is only the righteousness definition.
The holiness definition is....all that is not of faith is sin.
And who was/is without sin to be able to fulfill all those requirements of Ezekiel 18 and the Law? Only Jesus was able to. ALL have sinned....there is NO-ONE righteous. The Law was to make people AWARE of their sinful state, like the repentant publican.....for the purpose of tutoring them to the Messiah.
Rom 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
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The unbelief here is incredible. Also lack of honesty and reading skills. Believe as you want...you are fully self-deceived in your self-justification.
MostlyConfused
Well-Known Member
MostlyConfused
Well-Known Member
So how are we going to handle this? Should we draw straws to determine who’s going to go and confront God for lying when He said Job was righteous? Any volunteers?
MostlyConfused
Well-Known Member
You are guilty of not considering the WHOLE counsel of God.
What happens then? Once you repent and believe on the Messiah, what happens then regarding sin?
JimKnox
Active Member
You have testified willful adultery, meaning sin to death, = eternal death.
I don't follow.
Yes, that is your reworked salvific understanding of the gospel that you have maintained for years. Two saving conversions through two matching complementary infusions of your imagined form of 'grace' across two confusing levels of walk, where it is impossible to know when someone starts the introductory level or when they move on from it into the second. And then if someone slips back, you also seem to teach they return to the first stage and must start over... your doctrine is about as clear as mud.
We always need to hear what the Spirit is saying. Just because the Lord uses the same word in different places, it doesn't mean that He means the exact same literal thing by it in every instance.
We need to resolve these apparent contradictions rather than pitting one scripture against another.
Job wasn't sinless, that is obvious, for one thing because he still needed to repent, which he did at the end of the book. I believe he was righteous as far as it was possible to be righteous before the cross, and more righteous than most....apparently the most righteous of anyone living at that time. But at the time the Lord was saying Job was righteous and perfect in all his ways, he was still falling short of the righteousness that is needed for eternal life. Even the word "perfect" there is talking about whole hearted devotion and whole hearted efforts to serve the Lord, again as far as it was possible before the cross - it isn't talking about the "perfection" we are aiming to walk in as born again believers since the cross.....which perfection/wholeness is spiritual, not of our own. Job's perfection would have been of his own. It fell short of eternal life, but was pleasing to the Lord, so much so that at the end of his trial, He met him face to face, granted him repentance, and made him qualified for eternal life along with other faithful saints, after Jesus died and was resurrected (where it says "they without us would not be made perfect"). If Job's perfection were the same perfection as that after the cross, why did it say the old testament saints would only be made perfect along with we who came along after the cross? Ditto regarding righteousness - Job's righteousness is not talking about the same righteousness that we have been given, which is needed for eternal life. I hope that makes sense, I was hoping to be more brief.
Here below the Lord is talking about the righteousness needed for eternal life....nobody has it in their own right, because all have sinned - except Jesus:
Rom 3:9-13
What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned
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