All?
That would mean that there will be no more bodies left to die at that point in history.
The end of history on earth as we know it...
Pretrib fallacies
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All?
That would mean that there will be no more bodies left to die at that point in history.
The end of history on earth as we know it...
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
They will not die and will not be resurrected. They will be immediately changed. Nowhere does it say they will die. Regardless, Jesus said clearly that an hour/time is coming when ALL of the dead will be resurrected (John 5:28-29). Yet, you and all other Premils believe otherwise that the dead will be resurrected at multiple different hours/times.
In relation to the dead in Christ, Paul indicated that they all will be resurrected when Jesus comes (1 Corinthians 15:22-23), so do you believe that anyone in Christ will be resurrected at any other time? If so, that would contradict what Paul taught.
In God's eyes they have already died.
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.
The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved
me and gave himself for me. Galatians 2:20
.........
You are jumping between the physical and spiritual in order to justify your error. That does not work.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Yes, all. That's what Jesus said. Did you read it or not? Just read John 5:28-29. Mortal life will end when Jesus returns. Have you never heard of amillennialism? Look into it. When Jesus returns is when the new heavens and new earth will be ushered in and only those who inherit eternal life with immortal bodies will be there forever with everyone else being cast into the lake of fire at that time (read Matthew 25:31-46).
Jesus and Peter taught that heaven and earth will be burned up and pass away when Jesus returns unexpectedly as a thief in the night on a day and at an hour that no one knows. The heavens and earth will be renewed by fire at that time, resulting in the eternal new heavens and new earth.
Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
We're talking about bodily death and resurrection here. Those who are alive and remain until Jesus returns will not physically/bodily die and therefore will not be bodily resurrected. They will immediately be changed bodily from being mortal to immortal.
In God's eyes is what is needed here.
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.
The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved
me and gave himself for me. Galatians 2:20
.......
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
In God's eyes we were figuratively crucified with Christ, not physically. Do you really think that God saw Paul as being physically dead at that time? Of course not. Paul was speaking figuratively of putting off his former sinful, lost self and putting on his new self with Christ living in him. He was very much physically alive the whole time and God would not have seen him any different in a physical sense. It seems that you are going out of your way to deny what Jesus clearly indicated in John 5:28-29, which is that ALL of those who are physically dead will be bodily resurrected at the same hour/time.
You are most likely not understanding the context of John 5:28-29.
"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice
and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what
is evil will rise to be condemned."
Keep in mind ... Jesus was speaking those words to Jews before the church age began.
It had been a promise to Jews and their contemporaries, not the Church.
For the Church is a separate entity onto itself..
The Church alone is the "chosen" Bride of Christ.
All those in the Church age who die as unbelievers?
They will be raised with all other people who lived outside of the church age.
That is when all who are in their graves will be resurrected at the same time.
As for the Church itself?
The Church that is the Bride of Christ?
The resurrection of members of the Bride?
Who died and will be in their grave when take place in the Rapture.
For it says that those in the grave at the time of the Rapture will be raised first.
Then those of the Bride who are yet alive?
They will be taken up to be with them in the air.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel,
and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. (not every dead person)
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet
the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another
with these words. b1 Thessalonians 4:16-18
Some people have come to believe that everyone who has ever believed in the Lord - throughout all of history - even outside of the Church age, are all the Bride of Christ. John the Baptist said different,God has only chosen some believers in time to be the Bride.
OT believers who lived in the days of Moses law will not be the Bride.
Think about it.
If all were to be the Bride?
Who would Jesus the King and His Bride reign over as subjects?
If all were to be the Bride?
Who would Jesus the King and His Bride reign over as subjects?
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
LOL. Yet, you are completely incapable of backing that claim up.
Nonsense. He said "all who are in their graves", not "all Jews who are in their graves".
You're just making things up here. I can't take you seriously. You can't back up your beliefs with scripture.
The bride of Christ consists of all people who belong to Christ. That includes Moses and all believers who lived in Old Testament times. They belong to Him every bit as much as you and I do.
1 Corinthians 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.
Again... The point was missed completely.
I said when Jesus spoke those words, he was speaking (as a rabbi) to Jews.
And spoke in terms of Jewish understanding to his Jewish disciples.
That does not mean he was speaking about only Jews in their graves.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
So, what is your point then? He referred specifically to ALL who are in the graves. He did not give any exceptions. So, He was saying that a future hour/time is coming when literally all of the dead will be resurrected. This supports the amillennial view and not your premillennial view.
Well, one thing you forget...
Not all who died will be included in coming out of their graves that Jesus spoke of.
For before that time, in the Rapture, all dead in Christ will have already been raised.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel,
and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first. 1 Thes 4:16
Outside of the church, there are many who died.
Before the Church age existed? Many died.
And, after the Church Age ends at the Rapture?
Many more will also die.
So, Christians who died and were in the Rapture are not to be included with those who come out of their graves to appear before God as Jesus spoke of.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
What are you basing that on? No scripture teaches this.
This verse does not say that all of the dead in Christ will be resurrected at a different hour/time than the unsaved dead. The unsaved dead will be resurrected as part of the event known as the second coming or return of Christ as well.
What are you basing this on? Scripture never teaches a "Church Age" that ends with many more dying after that.
Yes, they will. You are not accepting what Jesus taught, which is that an hour/time is coming at which point ALL who are in the graves will be resurrected. You believe that the dead will be resurrected at multiple different hours/times in the future when Jesus Himself did not teach that. I will side with Jesus over you every time.
Do you know what the Rapture is?
Now don't surprise me and tell me you do not believe in the Rapture.
Do you know what the teaching on the Rapture says to us?
That the dead in Christ will rise first. 1 Thessalonians 4:16.
Note! Only the dead in Christ. Not all dead.
Jesus was telling His disciples of another resurrection moment when ALL the dead will come out of their graves.
But, the dead in Christ will not be in the number.
Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection.
The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests
of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years." Revelation 20:6
What's that?
"First resurrection?"
That means?
More than one resurrection will take place!
I know you're confused.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Please don't ask stupid questions. Thanks.
I don't believe in a pre-trib rapture. The rapture will be post-trib, as Jesus clearly taught.Now don't surprise me and tell me you do not believe in the Rapture.
Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [a]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Yes, Jesus said it will be "immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days". Not before.
In that passage Paul is specifically focused on believers, not unbelievers, so this proves nothing. Both Daniel 12:2 and John 5:28-29 show that both the saved and unsaved will be resurrected at generally the same hour/time and that will be when Jesus returns.
You are extremely confused and do not understand what scripture teaches about the timing of the resurrection of the dead. In terms of believers, you have multiple resurrections taking place, but Paul taught that Christ's resurrection was the first resurrection in order and next in order is the resurrection of the dead in Christ when He returns That's it. No other resurrection of believers will take place at any time.
1 Corinthians 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
I was talking about in God's eyes. Not your's.
He was the lamb slain before the foundation of the world.
Then he was slain in time.
In God's eyes it was as good as done.
That is why OT believers were allowed to live out their lives.
God's perspective trumps our human viewpoint.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
You are misinterpreting Revelation 13:8. That verse talks about the book of life of the Lamb who was slain being written from the foundation of the world. It's not talking about the lamb (Jesus, obviously) being slain before the foundation of the world.
Revelation 13:8 (NASB): All who live on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slaughtered.
You're not using scripture to back up your beliefs. You're just using your own imagination. Back up your beliefs with scripture like I'm doing. I showed a passage indicating that Old Testament believers drank from the same spiritual rock that we do and that Rock was Christ (1 Corinthians 10:1-4). All believers from all-time are together as one in the body and bride of Christ.
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