Forgive yet punish, what ?

[rmb60]

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[Lambano]

One of the explanations I read was this: "Forgiveness" means the offense will not break the relationship between offender and offended. It does NOT mean that actions do not have consequences. When a child breaks a rule, there may be punishment, but the child is still part of the family. He does not get tossed out on the street. Or killed.

Not sure if that works in all cases, but we can use it as a starting point.

 

[Lambano]

Thnx Lamb.
As a forgiven sinner, what is your punishment in eternity for the sins you have committed here ?

I'll have to listen to Amigo preaching about ecumenicalism for at least a millenium.

 

[Lambano]

???
Not sure what you mean

That joke failed miserably.

 

[Sel@h]

All good Lamb, I thought it was says PhD in hindsight he :)
Back to that question though, do you believe or understand you will be punished in eternity for the forgiven sins you have committed while here ?

My answer is “absolutely No.”

 

[Lambano]

All good Lamb, I thought it was says PhD in hindsight he :)
Back to that question though, do you believe or understand you will be punished in eternity for the forgiven sins you have committed while here ?

I am aware that actions do have consequences, and that thing about reaping and sowing (Galatians 6:7) doesn't go away. What makes all the difference in the world is trusting that I am a child of God and He will not break that relationship.

Do you think your actions in this life, both good and bad, will have consequences in the next? (I obviously picked up on the vibe regarding "forgiveness". I'm not going to get into that "Oh, you think you can sin all you want" and OSAS, and all that other crap this subject always degenerates into.) If you believed your actions had consequences in the World to Come, would you live your life any differently? Looking at it from the other pole, if I believed there would be no negative consequences for my actions, should I live this life any differently? Maybe take more risks?

 

[ScottA]

When we forgive someone this is what we are to do

In the teachings of Jesus Christ, forgiveness (aphiemi in Greek, meaning to release, send away, or cancel a debt) is the deliberate, grace-driven choice to cancel a moral or relational debt, relinquish the right to personal vengeance, and extend mercy just as God has canceled humanity's unpayable debt

Yet if we require someone to be punished who has sinned against us how can we claim that we have forgiven them ?

Perhaps you assume that the forgiveness of Christ is a bypass making void the Law. However, that is not the case.

Punishment is according to--part and parcel--of the Law (or law) among those who are perishing. Meaning, we here in the flesh--this body of flesh--still suffers under the law of sin and death until the end. To the contrary, forgiveness is of the Spirit by the Spirit, against whom there is no Law, for the Spirit is God in whom their is no sin.

In other words, the man of sin (which is all of us in the flesh) is under the law and serving the punishment of the law outwardly, which includes all manner of punishments experienced in this fallen world. While the Spirit is freedom from the law and this world.

 

[ScottA]

If you forgive a stranger for grievously harming you yet still desire or agree to their imprisonment, have you truly forgiven them ?

You are purposing we ultimately forgive sin, while it is only God who forgives sin.

What then is the practice of forgiving our brother all about?

First, it is not about us forgiving sin across the divide between this world and heaven. But rather, forgiving our brother is just that--a practice. Biblically, we are told and taught to "practice" many things that only point to what is to come. So, forgiving a brother--even though it is good--it is not a good work laying up treasure in heaven. But rather, forgiving a brother is a showing of faith in the promise of things to come. It is an act of faith.

To answer your question then, it depends on how you mean "truly." But I have already explained that you are mixing worldly practice forgiveness, with heavenly forgiveness only possible by God. So, in that context, No, you have not truly forgiven them. But you have forgiven what one can forgive in this world--which is meaningful indeed--it shows where your heart is. Which is good.

There is an exception--that of what we bind on earth being bound in heaven. But that is not forgiveness per se.

As for punishments common to this world and it's laws, we are not commanded, told, or taught to cease such activity. But rather to support righteous judgement, to pray for those in authority, and to heed the laws placed upon us as appointed by God. The only exception is, that we not participate in making and supporting unjust and ungodly laws, as they are the works of evil men.

 

[quietthinker]

Wronged, forgiven yet punished for the wrong.
What am I not understanding ?

You're onto the inconsistency in understanding 'Christianity' is bed with. It appears non believers can see this far clearer than many believers. The question is why?
I would say, 'Christianity' has over the centuries developed a view (paradigm) and defined and defended a Gospel as fiercely as Muslims defend Islam but their understanding has been waylaid no differently than the Jews understanding of the scriptures have been waylaid.

 

[Sel@h]

Thnx Sel, that too is my understanding.
Yet here is a quandary for you and I :-
If we forgive someone for a wrong they have done us yet we still desire or agree that they are penalized for their wrong are we truly forgiving them as we eternally are ?

Yes, I believe so. It’s just that we are all just human (dust), and sometimes when we’ve been hurt badly, it may take time for us to heal. But yet, when we ask our Father in Heaven to forgive us, He will do so in an instant. He never goes back on His promises:

Psalm 103:8-15 (KJV) 8 The LORD [is] merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy. 9 He will not always chide: neither will he keep [his anger] for ever. 10 He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities. 11 For as the heaven is high above the earth, [so] great is his mercy toward them that fear him. 12 As far as the east is from the west, [so] far hath he removed our transgressions from us. 13 Like as a father pitieth [his] children, [so] the LORD pitieth them that fear him. 14 For he knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we [are] dust.

 

[Lambano]

Some may say that though saved, limited eternal rewards is punishment for sin today
My understanding (for those saved) is that poor performance (not sin) today results in limited or no eternal rewards tomorrow.
So yes, there are eternal consequences for poor performance today but these consequences are not punishment for sin.

I'm thinking somewhat among those lines. What are we going to DO for all Eternity? Yes, maybe I could get the assignment of keeping the heavenly cats' heavenly litter boxes clean. (Here one could argue that cats go to the Other Place.) But I can see God giving out assignments related to our shortcomings here on earth. For example, someone whose was racist in this life might get the assignment to be the guardian angel (if such things exist) for someone of one of Those People. Someone who was self-centered in this life might get an assignment that requires self-giving. Some who was rich in this life might have assignments with little or no resources. And so on.

 

[quietthinker]

I'm thinking somewhat among those lines. What are we going to DO for all Eternity? Yes, maybe I could get the assignment of keeping the heavenly cats' heavenly litter boxes clean. (Here one could argue that cats go to the Other Place.) But I can see God giving out assignments related to our shortcomings here on earth. For example, someone whose was racist in this life might get the assignment to be the guardian angel (if such things exist) for someone of one of Those People. Someone who was self-centered in this life might get an assignment that requires self-giving. Some who was rich in this life might have assignments with little or no resources. And so on.

Ever wonder what 'reign with him on his throne' might mean?

 

[Lambano]

Ever wonder what 'reign with him on his throne' might mean?

Yeah, but I have no desire to get into Management.

 

[CoachedByChrist]

This is an honest question. Forgiveness releases the debt and gives up personal revenge. Consequences can still follow, and they are not the same as punishment from the forgiver. God forgave us fully in Christ, and He still disciplines those He loves. Holding both truths together takes time and humility.

 

[Wrangler]

I'll have to listen to Amigo preaching about ecumenicalism for at least a millenium.

And interfaith.

 

[Sel@h]

The truth will set you free.

 

[Wrangler]

Wronged, forgiven yet punished for the wrong.
What am I not understanding ?

I think your question touches on purgatory and @Lambano gave a good answer.

Why forgive and why punish? Forgiveness is a gift that we give ourselves. Punishment is what the consequences are, independent of forgiveness. For instance, I told my sister that I forgive her when she reached out after not talking to me for 16 years. (Honestly, she was aghast. What did she do that she needs to be forgiven for?) I asked if she forgives me. It was too complicated a question as her intent was to keep punishing me for what she did to the relationship. It was beyond her capacity to reason when I rhetorically asked why she didn’t ask why I didn’t reach out to her all that time?

You’re mad at me?! I’M MAD AT YOU … 16 years later … The process is the punishment.

 

[Wrangler]

Thnx Sel, that too is my understanding.
Yet here is a quandary for you and I :-
If we forgive someone for a wrong they have done us yet we still desire or agree that they are penalized for their wrong are we truly forgiving them as we eternally are ?

There is temporal punishment and eternal forgiveness. Parents don’t usually hold every error their children ever made against them forever even if they punished them for some things in the immediate aftermath.

 

[Sel@h]

What passages are you referring to to explain what the 'truth' is ?

I just happened to be reading John 8:31. But you know what? Truth in all things is something we should all strive for as Christians.

 

[Wrangler]

What passages are you referring to to explain what the 'truth' is ?

Welcome to the forum! And thanks for starting this thread. Did you start a thread in the Welcome section? How old are you? What has your spiritual journey been so far?

I look forward to many good conversations.